DebateGate

General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Universe Prince on January 31, 2008, 11:38:49 PM

Title: Another stupid licensing law used to punish someone not doing anything wrong
Post by: Universe Prince on January 31, 2008, 11:38:49 PM
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/home_top_left_story/20080130_Bidding_goodbye.html

      WALNUTPORT, Pa. - Mary Jo Pletz was really, really good at eBay. But now the former stay-at-home mother and gonzo Internet retailer fears a maximum $10 million fine for selling 10,000 toys, antiques, videos, sports memorabilia, books, tools and infant clothes on eBay without an auctioneer's license.

[...]

The 33-year-old opened her Internet business in 2004 so she could stay home with her 6-month-old daughter, Julia, who was diagnosed with a hypothalamic hamartoma brain tumor.

She cooperated when told it was illegal and works at dental offices in Allentown, Bethlehem and Lehighton as a hygienist to help pay the bills at home. Julia, whose health stabilized on medication, is enrolled in day care. Pletz also has a son, Douglas, 7.

Doing the math
But the state has not dropped prosecution. It sent Pletz a complaint in April and an amended complaint in December. The complaint says she could be fined $1,000 for each violation of the state law. The April complaint noted 10,000 sales. Pletz and her attorney, Joseph V. Sebelin Jr. of Palmerton, did the math - $10 million in possible fines. The second complaint does not list a number.

A July hearing was canceled; a new one has not been scheduled.

In an e-mail Monday, a Department of State spokeswoman said Pletz faced a $2,000 maximum fine because of two counts listed in the complaint.

"Well, it's nice they told you, because they haven't let me know," Pletz said.
      

But don't you listen to folks who talk about smaller government. They're just greedy bastards who don't care about other people. Without the government to look out for the interests of ordinary, hardworking Pennsylvanians, this woman might have continued to make money by selling things without a license, and I'm sure you all know what a danger to society that is.

(Yeah, sarcasm again. Sometimes I just can't help it.)
Title: Re: Another stupid licensing law used to punish someone not doing anything wrong
Post by: BT on February 01, 2008, 12:20:43 AM
The law often lags technology.

Title: Re: Another stupid licensing law used to punish someone not doing anything wrong
Post by: Universe Prince on February 01, 2008, 02:08:53 AM
So? That's no excuse.
Title: Re: Another stupid licensing law used to punish someone not doing anything wrong
Post by: BT on February 01, 2008, 02:16:46 AM
Not an excuse. It is a simple reality.

Odds are the auction law definitions are being broadly interpreted to include on line bidding and were written when livestock was the primary product being sold.

 

Title: Re: Another stupid licensing law used to punish someone not doing anything wrong
Post by: Universe Prince on February 01, 2008, 02:36:55 AM
Again, that's no excuse. The law is being broadly interpreted by someone apparently looking for a case. Not like anyone forced the state to bring charges against the woman. Given the circumstances, I have a hard time buying the "they're just doing their jobs" argument.
Title: Re: Another stupid licensing law used to punish someone not doing anything wrong
Post by: BT on February 01, 2008, 02:45:33 AM
I would guess that this is not the first prosecution based on this interpretation of law.

Unfortunately the article is not an examination of that subject. It is an agenda stepping stone, high on soap boxing but short on solutions.

What would Ron Paul do?

Fix the law or make a speech?

 

Title: Re: Another stupid licensing law used to punish someone not doing anything wrong
Post by: Universe Prince on February 01, 2008, 04:01:11 AM

Unfortunately the article is not an examination of that subject. It is an agenda stepping stone, high on soap boxing but short on solutions.


Not sure why you expect a reporter to offer solutions in a news article. And as I recall, the article does mention at least a couple of proposed law changes.


What would Ron Paul do?

Fix the law or make a speech?


Perhaps neither one since he isn't a politician in Pennsylvania, smartass. But I suppose he would propose a law change and folks like you would first vote against the proposed law change because it wouldn't be "pragmatic" and then ridicule Paul for not demanding to have his picture taken with a stripper. Meanwhile the woman would be left to suffer. But you would be able to pride yourself on your "pragmatism". And then you'd bitch about Paul, complaining that he doesn't get anything done. Meanwhile the woman would still be left to suffer. But what the frak do you care? You're too busy making fun of Ron Paul.
Title: Re: Another stupid licensing law used to punish someone not doing anything wrong
Post by: BT on February 01, 2008, 04:13:58 AM
Don't see why Paul couldn't introduce federal legislation. Fed legislation keeps the states from taxing online sales.
Title: Re: Another stupid licensing law used to punish someone not doing anything wrong
Post by: Universe Prince on February 01, 2008, 05:22:03 AM

Don't see why Paul couldn't introduce federal legislation. Fed legislation keeps the states from taxing online sales.


I don't know his opinion on this particular case, but I doubt I'd be too far off in suggesting he'd probably consider this something better left to the states. Duh.
Title: Re: Another stupid licensing law used to punish someone not doing anything wrong
Post by: BT on February 01, 2008, 09:42:36 AM
Interesting reply. It would seem that Paul, strong protector of the constitution and all, would be interested in equal protection of citizens in the several states, by helping make sue there are consistent definitions with which to work.

His newsletters, notwithstanding.

Title: Re: Another stupid licensing law used to punish someone not doing anything wrong
Post by: Universe Prince on February 01, 2008, 01:17:20 PM

It would seem that Paul, strong protector of the constitution and all, would be interested in equal protection of citizens in the several states, by helping make sue there are consistent definitions with which to work.


Unless of course he believed this was something the U.S. Constitution did not authorize the U.S Congress to legislate. But again, I don't know his opinion on this particular case. So let's stop trying to make this about Ron Paul. Seems to me if the state government gave a damn about protecting its citizens, the story would be about the state government changing the law not trying to punish a woman for making enough money on eBay to live and support her family. But maybe like you, they would rather pat themselves on the back for something unrelated, like being offended about Ron Paul's newsletters. Meanwhile the mother has lost income and faces huge fines that she probably cannot afford to pay. But let's not talk about that. You just keep harping on Ron Paul, and maybe no one will think about the mother.
Title: Re: Another stupid licensing law used to punish someone not doing anything wrong
Post by: Amianthus on February 01, 2008, 01:38:50 PM
What I don't get is - isn't eBay the "auctioneer" in this case? Why aren't they going after eBay? This lady just had an "auctioneer" - in this case eBay - sell her items for a percent of the sale price. Doesn't that make eBay the "auctioneer"?
Title: Re: Another stupid licensing law used to punish someone not doing anything wrong
Post by: Universe Prince on February 01, 2008, 01:52:50 PM
Well, I believe they are calling the woman the auctioneer be cause she was selling items for other people. Basically her business was to sell items for other people on eBay, and she got a percentage of the selling price.
Title: Re: Another stupid licensing law used to punish someone not doing anything wrong
Post by: BT on February 01, 2008, 02:18:23 PM
Quote
Seems to me if the state government gave a damn about protecting its citizens, the story would be about the state government changing the law not trying to punish a woman for making enough money on eBay to live and support her family.

The state apparently did give a damn about its citizens because they license auctioneers. You just disagree with the states definition of auctioneer.
Title: Re: Another stupid licensing law used to punish someone not doing anything wrong
Post by: Universe Prince on February 01, 2008, 03:36:08 PM
Sometimes, BT, your defense of government makes me laugh. The woman be damned, the state requires licenses for auctioneers so obviously the state cares. Sure. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
Title: Re: Another stupid licensing law used to punish someone not doing anything wrong
Post by: Plane on February 01, 2008, 03:43:41 PM
Seems unlikely that this woman was intentionally flouting the law or operateing in bad faith.

If this woman looses her case and draws a ruinous penalty , could that cool business for e-Bay?


E-bay has a dog in this fight , they ought to provide their own lawyer to help defend this customer and use what clout they have to get this law amended , if they don't this case could become famous and reduce the e-bay sellers pool.

Title: Re: Another stupid licensing law used to punish someone not doing anything wrong
Post by: yellow_crane on February 01, 2008, 03:48:18 PM
Seems unlikely that this woman was intentionally flouting the law or operateing in bad faith.

If this woman looses her case and draws a ruinous penalty , could that cool business for e-Bay?


E-bay has a dog in this fight , they ought to provide their own lawyer to help defend this customer and use what clout they have to get this law amended , if they don't this case could become famous and reduce the e-bay sellers pool.




And if the e-bay sellers pool is reduced, who stands to gain?
Title: Re: Another stupid licensing law used to punish someone not doing anything wrong
Post by: kimba1 on February 01, 2008, 04:10:15 PM
isn`t the rub the fact since she was informed she stopped.
the info given so far seems to point she was not knowing going against the law.
if anything she should of been given a warning and stop till she got a licence.
is there information I`m missing?
it just look like the state is looking for money that doesn`t exist
Title: Re: Another stupid licensing law used to punish someone not doing anything wrong
Post by: Plane on February 01, 2008, 05:08:27 PM
Seems unlikely that this woman was intentionally flouting the law or operateing in bad faith.

If this woman looses her case and draws a ruinous penalty , could that cool business for e-Bay?


E-bay has a dog in this fight , they ought to provide their own lawyer to help defend this customer and use what clout they have to get this law amended , if they don't this case could become famous and reduce the e-bay sellers pool.




And if the e-bay sellers pool is reduced, who stands to gain?



Your question has me stumped.

Seems like a loss for anyone involved with e-bay, and a win nowhere.
Title: Re: Another stupid licensing law used to punish someone not doing anything wrong
Post by: yellow_crane on February 01, 2008, 06:31:01 PM
Seems unlikely that this woman was intentionally flouting the law or operateing in bad faith.

If this woman looses her case and draws a ruinous penalty , could that cool business for e-Bay?


E-bay has a dog in this fight , they ought to provide their own lawyer to help defend this customer and use what clout they have to get this law amended , if they don't this case could become famous and reduce the e-bay sellers pool.




And if the e-bay sellers pool is reduced, who stands to gain?



Your question has me stumped.

Seems like a loss for anyone involved with e-bay, and a win nowhere.

The smaller the pool, the more customers set free to purchase elsewhere.


Would you think that many corporations, oh hell, just say companies, would find e-bay a place of competition?

In most towns in America, you find a thrift shop.  The stipulation for a thrift shop to get a license is that it must be controlled by a non-profit organization, which means people like Salvation Army and the other ones, many Catholic.

Try to get a license for a thrift shop without one, though.  It is possible, but it would take first-cousin clout.

A local county commissioner I asked looked at me like I was, to borrow a Rich term, manic; "hell, these business people in this town are my friends.   I go to church with many of them."

See, no bargain stores, or they might compete with other businesses.

Especially now since those various dollar stores, which are big corporations, and who have NO trouble getting the permits, are all over your little town.

That money goes out of town and overseas to China, and the locals get the four  minimum wage jobs.  That is what Republicans can 'growing jobs.'

I think there are a lot of business people who would like to see e-bay gone.  Every time somebody buys a used goodie on e-bay, a local business gets to keep the new one on the shelf.
Title: Re: Another stupid licensing law used to punish someone not doing anything wrong
Post by: Amianthus on February 01, 2008, 06:55:37 PM
The smaller the pool, the more customers set free to purchase elsewhere.

"Set free"?

eBay chains them to their computer desks?
Title: Re: Another stupid licensing law used to punish someone not doing anything wrong
Post by: kimba1 on February 01, 2008, 06:57:22 PM
not sure about that
most stuff I find in ebay is simply not sold locally
ex. I buy part stuff from ebay for my axim.because dell doesn`t sell them any more.
I buy rare books on ebay because most stores in my area just don`t have them.
it`s not really much of a competition
new items sold on ebay that I find are not even that much cheaper
sometime more expensive
Title: Re: Another stupid licensing law used to punish someone not doing anything wrong
Post by: Amianthus on February 01, 2008, 07:00:15 PM
In most towns in America, you find a thrift shop.  The stipulation for a thrift shop to get a license is that it must be controlled by a non-profit organization, which means people like Salvation Army and the other ones, many Catholic.

Must be a Wisconsin thing. Lots of "non-profit" thrift stores in Minnesota, Maryland, and North Carolina.

Hint: They're usually called "consignment shops" when they're not run by non-profits.
Title: Re: Another stupid licensing law used to punish someone not doing anything wrong
Post by: yellow_crane on February 01, 2008, 08:51:16 PM
The smaller the pool, the more customers set free to purchase elsewhere.

"Set free"?

eBay chains them to their computer desks?


Errrr . . . you are attacking the metaphor.

If I change the metaphor, back to square one.

Deny that many businesses would like to see e-bay shitcanned.
Title: Re: Another stupid licensing law used to punish someone not doing anything wrong
Post by: yellow_crane on February 01, 2008, 08:55:29 PM
In most towns in America, you find a thrift shop.  The stipulation for a thrift shop to get a license is that it must be controlled by a non-profit organization, which means people like Salvation Army and the other ones, many Catholic.

Must be a Wisconsin thing. Lots of "non-profit" thrift stores in Minnesota, Maryland, and North Carolina.

Hint: They're usually called "consignment shops" when they're not run by non-profits.

It does run different state to state.

I imagine Florida is one of the worst.  Everybody knows that Florida is the premiere corporate state, and the worst in the country to start a new business.

Texas would be my guess as best. 

People who license these kinds of stores make it hard to happen, because they are listening to the bitchings of established stores.    "Consignment shops" usually only sell women's and children's clothes.  Even hardened county commissioners know better than to piss off Aunt Bee.

Title: Re: Another stupid licensing law used to punish someone not doing anything wrong
Post by: Amianthus on February 01, 2008, 09:29:39 PM
People who license these kinds of stores make it hard to happen, because they are listening to the bitchings of established stores.    "Consignment shops" usually only sell women's and children's clothes.  Even hardened county commissioners know better than to piss off Aunt Bee.

I see. "It runs the way I say it does, except where it doesn't."

No, actually, the law is Federal in nature. A thrift store accepts donations that are tax deductible; therefore, the group running the store must be eligible to accept tax deductible donations. Those groups that run stores that sell items specifically for a profit, run "consignment shops," which, contrary to your statement, sell everything and anything that is salable.
Title: Re: Another stupid licensing law used to punish someone not doing anything wrong
Post by: Plane on February 01, 2008, 09:55:45 PM
The smaller the pool, the more customers set free to purchase elsewhere.

"Set free"?

eBay chains them to their computer desks?


Errrr . . . you are attacking the metaphor.

If I change the metaphor, back to square one.

Deny that many businesses would like to see e-bay shitcanned.


Interesting in concept , but e-bay has many regular stores represented as sellers , pawn shop owners very commonly sell just a much throgh e-bay as they do thru their shop.

Quote
In most towns in America, you find a thrift shop.  The stipulation for a thrift shop to get a license is that it must be controlled by a non-profit organization, which means people like Salvation Army and the other ones, many Catholic.

Around here there are Salvation Army and Goodwill stores , which always seem to be busy , pawn shops which also always seem busy.

I think that perhaps Wall Mart  harms these businesses by offerin lots of new stuff at rather low prices.

But the music stores , the camera stores , antique stores etc, don't try to beat them, they join them and sell on e-bay.