Author Topic: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.  (Read 10830 times)

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Stray Pooch

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2010, 01:55:01 PM »
Anti-Israeli Bravo Sierra aside, I have to agree with the general gist of XO's initial analysis.


Israel has every right to establish whatever relationship with any nation it chooses.  But cultivating better relations with Greece - if it has anything at all to do with their relationship with Turkey -  is a ridiculous move by Israel. 

First, by simple comparison, Turkey has, indeed, all of those Muslim ties, along with power and prestige in the Middle East that Greece lacks entirely.  In regional terms, Greece as a strategic partner has nothing to offer.  That relationship would be nothing compared to the loss of Turkish partnership. 

Second, Greece is rocked by internal strife and economic catastrophe right now.  It's like one passenger on the Titanic clinging to another. 

Third, Greece is STILL an enemy in all but name to Turkey.  The effect of improved relations with Greece - especially if flaunted as an antidote to the loss of Turkish support - would drive a last nail into the coffin of Turkish-Israeli relations.  It might well also drive the Turks to openly support Iran and other regimes currently hostile to the west.  Turkey is a moderate nation, but the Turks are a proud people and eventually they are going to see a lot more sense in sticking with their Muslim brothers than in groveling at the feet of the US and Israel.  They have already resisted the overtures of the US concerning their fight with the Kurds and involvement in the ongoing conflicts, in spite of our NATO relations.  I think we squander our own goodwill with Turkey at great peril.  Israel needs them even more. Turkey seems like no threat right now, but Iran seemed pretty secure in 1976. 


Finally, somewhere, the Maccabees are turning over in their graves.
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Kramer

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2010, 02:04:42 PM »
Israel IS the bad guy for HAVING the Goddamned missiles.

The US is not going to bomb Iran, and neither is the US. Dream on.

Like I said, Israel is as important to the US as Trandenestria or South Ossetia or perhaps Kashmir, but I resent paying for Israel's "defense".

Turkey is a worthy ally of the US: they joined the UN in Korea. Israel is a parasitic beggar nation that depends on my taxes.

$3 billion a year to Israel is a drop in the (bucket) budget compared to all my tax money wasted on the Great Society. At least with Israel we have something to show for it. With the Great Society waste all we got was Obama and then we lost another $16 TRILLION with his election.

Kramer

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2010, 02:42:04 PM »
Anti-Israeli Bravo Sierra aside, I have to agree with the general gist of XO's initial analysis.


Israel has every right to establish whatever relationship with any nation it chooses.  But cultivating better relations with Greece - if it has anything at all to do with their relationship with Turkey -  is a ridiculous move by Israel. 

First, by simple comparison, Turkey has, indeed, all of those Muslim ties, along with power and prestige in the Middle East that Greece lacks entirely.  In regional terms, Greece as a strategic partner has nothing to offer.  That relationship would be nothing compared to the loss of Turkish partnership. 

Second, Greece is rocked by internal strife and economic catastrophe right now.  It's like one passenger on the Titanic clinging to another. 

Third, Greece is STILL an enemy in all but name to Turkey.  The effect of improved relations with Greece - especially if flaunted as an antidote to the loss of Turkish support - would drive a last nail into the coffin of Turkish-Israeli relations.  It might well also drive the Turks to openly support Iran and other regimes currently hostile to the west.  Turkey is a moderate nation, but the Turks are a proud people and eventually they are going to see a lot more sense in sticking with their Muslim brothers than in groveling at the feet of the US and Israel.  They have already resisted the overtures of the US concerning their fight with the Kurds and involvement in the ongoing conflicts, in spite of our NATO relations.  I think we squander our own goodwill with Turkey at great peril.  Israel needs them even more. Turkey seems like no threat right now, but Iran seemed pretty secure in 1976. 


Finally, somewhere, the Maccabees are turning over in their graves.

At the end of the day Turkey doesn't want, need, or benefit from a nuclear armed Iran. Need I say more?

Kramer

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2010, 04:31:07 PM »
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LDE66413N.htm

Turkey's foreign minister was quoted on Monday as saying that Ankara would cut ties with Israel unless it apologised or accepted an international inquiry into its deadly raid on a Turkish aid ship bound for Gaza.

But a Turkish government official told Reuters the minister's words had been misrepresented. The official said Ankara's position was that it would be very difficult or impossible to repair bilateral ties with the Jewish state unless Ankara's previously stated demands were met.


Plane

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2010, 04:38:56 PM »
Does Turkey really want an inquiry?

Seems like there is a lot for those Turkish civilians to explain.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2010, 05:04:21 PM »
Turkey is not an enemy of the US or of Americans in any way, and should not become an enemy or suffer worse relations because of the dumb crap that Israel does. There is no reason why the Turks should NOT do an investigation. They were the once who lost the most people to this. It was Israels fault that anyone got killed, as they started the fight by sending those goons down a rope onto a ship.
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Plane

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2010, 05:30:36 PM »
Turkey is not an enemy of the US or of Americans in any way, and should not become an enemy or suffer worse relations because of the dumb crap that Israel does. There is no reason why the Turks should NOT do an investigation. They were the once who lost the most people to this. It was Israels fault that anyone got killed, as they started the fight by sending those goons down a rope onto a ship.

Goons?

How did this ship have four hundred club weilding peacenicks?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2010, 05:36:46 PM »
The people on the ship had a right to have clubs. The Israelis sending their goons down a rope proves that they needed them.
Observe who and how many of each got killed. I saw nothing about 400 people with clubs in any new report. But if they had really been prepared for a fight, they would have had submachine guns, and bazookas. Clubs are a poor weapon when the enemy has firearms.

And again, the Zionists were not only wrong, but stupid and wrong and lost this one because of being both stupid and wrong.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2010, 12:21:22 AM »
<<This notion was not the direct outcome of Israel's break with Turkey or the clash aboard the Turkish
Mavi Marmara on May 31 between Israeli commandos and pro-Palestinian Turkish activists.


This was how DEBKRAP described the murder of nine Turkish humanitarian aid workers - - as a "clash" between commandos and activists.  As if two armed groups had met and shot it out.

What a bunch of undisguised garbage.  Murder is murder and most of the world can understand it as such.  "Club-wielding passengers?"  Give me a break - - they tore up the ship's railings to use as makeshift weapons of self-defence after the Israeli commandos opened fire on the unarmed passengers and began dropping onto the decks.

The switch in allies can be summarized as:

Turkey:  pop. 72.5 million, armed forces about 1 million, est. 2009 GDP $880 billion;
Greece:  pop. 11 million, armed forces about 178,000, est. 2009 GDP $334 billion

Political stability of Greece - - let the headlines speak for themselves.  Greeks are rioting in the streets because of the EU's attempts to force "fiscal restraint" on them.  We'll have to see how interested the Greeks are in getting themselves embroiled in Middle Eastern conflicts for the sake of their new-found friends, who have already demonstrated pretty conclusively how they treat allies of long standing.

Anyone who can't see this as a distinct lurch toward oblivion by the Israelis is definitely looking at this with blinders on.

Kramer

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2010, 12:44:12 AM »
<<This notion was not the direct outcome of Israel's break with Turkey or the clash aboard the Turkish
Mavi Marmara on May 31 between Israeli commandos and pro-Palestinian Turkish activists.


This was how DEBKRAP described the murder of nine Turkish humanitarian aid workers - - as a "clash" between commandos and activists.  As if two armed groups had met and shot it out.

What a bunch of undisguised garbage.  Murder is murder and most of the world can understand it as such.  "Club-wielding passengers?"  Give me a break - - they tore up the ship's railings to use as makeshift weapons of self-defence after the Israeli commandos opened fire on the unarmed passengers and began dropping onto the decks.

The switch in allies can be summarized as:

Turkey:  pop. 72.5 million, armed forces about 1 million, est. 2009 GDP $880 billion;
Greece:  pop. 11 million, armed forces about 178,000, est. 2009 GDP $334 billion

Political stability of Greece - - let the headlines speak for themselves.  Greeks are rioting in the streets because of the EU's attempts to force "fiscal restraint" on them.  We'll have to see how interested the Greeks are in getting themselves embroiled in Middle Eastern conflicts for the sake of their new-found friends, who have already demonstrated pretty conclusively how they treat allies of long standing.

Anyone who can't see this as a distinct lurch toward oblivion by the Israelis is definitely looking at this with blinders on.

don't fret, by the time this is over Turkey will be Israel's buddy once again. Iran will get de-nuked by Israel and so on and so force and yadda yadda yadda.

Stray Pooch

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2010, 01:19:48 AM »
What a bunch of undisguised garbage.  Murder is murder and most of the world can understand it as such. 

Fortunately, this is not murder.  It is "selective execution" of "enemies of the people." 

Man, you shoulda seen that post . . .


Anyone who can't see this as a distinct lurch toward oblivion by the Israelis is definitely looking at this with blinders on.

I'm not sure about oblivion, but it is not a step up by any means.  Israel doesn't need a NATO ally.  The de facto military arm of NATO is already her biggest ally. 
Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

Michael Tee

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2010, 01:32:02 AM »
<<I'm not sure about oblivion, but it is not a step up by any means.  Israel doesn't need a NATO ally.  The de facto military arm of NATO is already her biggest ally.  >>

That may be starting to change.  In any event, I have always wondered, when the shit hits the fan, just how far that "biggest ally" is willing to go for its little sidekick.  This is, after all, an "alliance" never formalized in a mutual defence treaty, in which all of the benefits of the "alliance" seem to flow in one direction only.

Stray Pooch

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2010, 01:43:51 AM »
<<I'm not sure about oblivion, but it is not a step up by any means.  Israel doesn't need a NATO ally.  The de facto military arm of NATO is already her biggest ally.  >>

That may be starting to change.  In any event, I have always wondered, when the shit hits the fan, just how far that "biggest ally" is willing to go for its little sidekick.  This is, after all, an "alliance" never formalized in a mutual defence treaty, in which all of the benefits of the "alliance" seem to flow in one direction only.

Yeah, but there is way too much history there.  And if you want to be completely cynical, keeping Israel over there to occupy the ragheads helps keep them from getting any funny ideas about forming an actual working Pan-Arab alliance which just might become another major power - even a superpower - and would introduce a whole new problem in that oil-rich region.  OPEC is quite enough to deal with.  Israel keeps them all jockeying for power while trying to avoid getting on Big Brother's hit list.  Eliminate Israel and they could have enough free time on their hands to start thinking about mergers.  It could be like a wall-street orgy with five breaks a day for prayer. 

I don't see the US backing off from supporting Israel anytime soon.  And if we did, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Israel courting Russia and China (and them falling in line for the same destabilization reasons).  World politics is a funny pup.
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Michael Tee

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2010, 09:39:20 AM »
<<And if you want to be completely cynical, keeping Israel over there to occupy the ragheads helps keep them from getting any funny ideas about forming an actual working Pan-Arab alliance which just might become another major power - even a superpower - and would introduce a whole new problem in that oil-rich region.  OPEC is quite enough to deal with. >>

If I wanted to be completely cynical?  Come on, Pooch, put that old imagination to work.  If I wanted to be completely cynical, I'd have to say that Zio-Nazi bribe money, of which AIPAC, I can tell you from personal knowledge, is but the tip of the iceberg, will keep the unbelievably corrupt U.S. Congress on the side of Israel for a very, very, very long time.  As the attack on the U.S.S. Liberty should have told any thinking observer.

<<Israel keeps them all jockeying for power while trying to avoid getting on Big Brother's hit list.  Eliminate Israel and they could have enough free time on their hands to start thinking about mergers.  It could be like a wall-street orgy with five breaks a day for prayer. >>

Israel, to the contrary, is what should bring them together despite all their differences, since it is Israel that humiliates the Muslim world every second of the occupation of the West Bank occupation, with gratuitous extra-large doses of humiliation thrown in at choice intervals, i.e., invasions of Lebanon, invasion of the West Bank, invasion of Gaza, murder of the Turkish relief workers, etc. etc. etc.  Support of Israel is behind much of the anti-American sentiment of the Middle East today.  At the end of WWII, the country they loved to hate was the UK.  Even at the time of the Suez War, it was the English and French bad guys conspiring with the Israelis to take back the Canal by force, and the American good guys who forced them to give up their ill-gotten gains.  Somehow, after Eisenhower, American $$$$$upport swung round to Israel, and hatred of America all over the Middle East has risen to epic proportions.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2010, 11:51:41 AM »
This was how DEBKRAP described the murder of nine Turkish humanitarian aid workers - - as a "clash" between commandos and activists.  As if two armed groups had met and shot it out.

=================================
A rumble in the schoolyard between the Sharks and the Jets, as in "West Side Story".

It could be more colorfully described as a skirmish between Turks with improvised weapons and armed piƱatas.
I suppose Debkafiles would have preferred that the club wielders had been blindfolded.

And again, the fact is that Israel was stupid and lost this round, and an important ally. I hardly think that the Turks are going to decide to make nice with the Zionists again: I have a feeling that the Turkish political and military classes only did so for so long
because the former were advised by the Americans (and may have shared a War College classroom with them) and the latter liked Israel's weapons. I do not believe that Turks actually like the Jews all that much: they just see the Arabs as backward hicks who have not the sense to come up with their own Ataturk.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."