Only Bigots oppose the Mosque....right?

[Kramer]

I want to see some love from that religion. Some sensitivity, some caring, compassion, and some respect. Respect is earned.

 
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If there is any justice and sense of irony in the Universe, King Abdullah or perhaps Bin Laden himself will grab Kramer in the most loving of embraces and kiss him full upon the lips.
 

All three of you can kiss my ass!

[sirs]

Nope, only a symbol of the religion, Bin Ladin and his folks used to carry out 911

Then again we've already gone over that.  You really want to keep repeating this??

Yeah i do.  How is it that Bin Laden was primarily motivated by his religion, yet the US response wasn't.

One is a religious calling, the other is not

Again, pretty simple

Unless you can show an American in charge of the military, requesting a call on christians, to rise up and defeat the evil east

do you think Bin Laden had political or economic grievances?

Political, if we're going to choose one of your options, but mostly religious

[BT]

Political, if we're going to choose one of your options, but mostly religious

Why mostly religious? Palestine is a political and economic issue and that was one of his many grievances listed in his fatwa.

[sirs]

The Fatwa itself was kind of a giveaway

[Kramer]

Go take a look at countries in Europe and learn why you don't want Islam all over the place here and yes I want freedom of religion but also want freedom from religion. I don't want their religious laws or Middle Age customs here in America where we cherish freedoms. Islam is counter to freedom. I know it's harsh and cruel but so what this is serious business. We can learn from other countries mistakes, with regards to allowing Islam to take over, and learn from places in Michigan, NY and even California that Islam doesn't fit with free societies.

[BT]

The Fatwa itself was kind of a giveaway

From the Fatwa:

Few days ago the news agencies had reported that the Defence Secretary of the Crusading Americans had said that "the explosion at Riyadh and Al-Khobar had taught him one lesson: that is not to withdraw when attacked by coward terrorists".

We say to the Defence Secretary that his talk can induce a grieving mother to laughter! and shows the fears that had enshrined you all. Where was this false courage of yours when the explosion in Beirut took place on 1983 AD (1403 A.H). You were turned into scattered pits and pieces at that time; 241 mainly marines solders were killed. And where was this courage of yours when two explosions made you to leave Aden in lees than twenty four hours!

But your most disgraceful case was in Somalia; where- after vigorous propaganda about the power of the USA and its post cold war leadership of the new world order- you moved tens of thousands of international force, including twenty eight thousands American solders into Somalia. However, when tens of your solders were killed in minor battles and one American Pilot was dragged in the streets of Mogadishu you left the area carrying disappointment, humiliation, defeat and your dead with you. Clinton appeared in front of the whole world threatening and promising revenge , but these threats were merely a preparation for withdrawal. You have been disgraced by Allah and you withdrew; the extent of your impotence and weaknesses became very clear. It was a pleasure for the "heart" of every Muslim and a remedy to the "chests" of believing nations to see you defeated in the three Islamic cities of Beirut , Aden and Mogadishu.

I say to Secretary of Defence: The sons of the land of the two Holy Places had come out to fight against the Russian in Afghanistan, the Serb in Bosnia-Herzegovina and today they are fighting in Chechenia and -by the Permission of Allah- they have been made victorious over your partner, the Russians. By the command of Allah, they are also fighting in Tajakistan.

Sounds geopolitical to me.

[sirs]

Fatwa:
- an Islamic religious decree
- a non-binding judgment on a point of Islamic law given by a recognized religious authority

Sounds religious, to me

[BT]

Fatwa:
- an Islamic religious decree
- a non-binding judgment on a point of Islamic law given by a recognized religious authority

When did Bin Laden become a cleric? By what authority does he issue religious decrees?

[sirs]

Never said he had the "Official authority" or that Bin Laden is a cleric (then again, we've already gone over that).  Merely referencing that a Fatwa is pretty much an Islamic religious decree

[BT]

Never said he had the "Official authority" or that Bin Laden is a cleric (then again, we've already gone over that).  Merely referencing that a Fatwa is pretty much an Islamic religious decree

If he isn't a religious figure, can he even issue a Fatwa? By your definition it doesn't look like it.

And if he doesn't have the religious credentials to issue a fatwa and by extension speak for Islam your associating him with all of Islam folds like a house of cards.

And that is the core of why you object to the Park51 Mosque. Because it symbolizes the religion of a man who had no right to speak in that religions name. Therefore the symbolism is false. As is the objection.

[sirs]

Never said he had the "Official authority" or that Bin Laden is a cleric (then again, we've already gone over that).  Merely referencing that a Fatwa is pretty much an Islamic religious decree

If he isn't a religious figure, can he even issue a Fatwa?

LOL...you're the one that brought Fatwa into the dicussion.  So, is he or is he not using it??  Whether he's official, is besides the point.  A Fatwa is an Islamic Religious Decree, and YOU're the one repetatively applying its usage by Mr. Bin Laden. 

Are you now backpedaling saying it's not really a Fatwa?  If not, what is it now, that his followers are supporting?

[BT]

One of the uses of a fatwa is a call to war. The Ayatollah can issue one, i don't see where Bin Laden can. By the way, PBS called it a fatwa. The reason i posted it was so you could see the reasoning behind Bin Ladens call to arms. If they got it wrong, so be it. What i would consider it is a declaration of war by a non state sponsored militia.

Face it, your rationale behind your objection to the mosque and support of those 911 families that agree with you is based on one simple point. That Bin Laden speaks for Islam. And thus far we have determined he doesn't.

House of cards.

Your objection is irrational.

[sirs]

LOL.....I like the way you use irrational that debunks your continued rationalization efforts. 

Usama calls on Islamic followers to take on the infidels of Western Civilization.  Even goes so far as issuing a Fatwa, which is an Islamic religious decree.  Followers rose up, and murdered 3000+, in the name of that Islamic Fatwa  But wait, he can't speak for Islam, because he's not an official cleric, so his Fatwa, that you keep using is.......non-binding?, I can only assume.  Which begs the question, why was it brought up, if it's not really functional or applicable?

My "house of cards" remains as solid as when it was 1st referenced.  A symbol of the religion used to murder thousands of Americans is largely opposed for its proposed location so close to the gravesite of those murdered in the name of that religion.  Move it, even just a few blocks further, the country wide outrage is pretty much squelched

And don't bother trying to reuse the 2nd amendment tact, as I've already referenced locations where that right is apparently "not tolerated". 
And don't bother trying to reuse the "religious intolerance" tact, since I've already referenced that its the disrespectful location and piss poor judgement demonstrating precisely the opposite of tolerance, respect, & sensitivity that this Mosque is supposed to bring.  Moving back even 4-6 blocks, and folks can practice their religion, to their heart's content....with all the religious tolerance in the world

Hourse of Cards?  Maybe if you're referring to cards made out of brick

[BT]

If Bin Laden does not have the authority to issue a fatwa based on your definition, and thank you for introducing that to the thread, then it isn't a fatwa.

True he issued a call to arms to fellow Muslims, but that has as much authority as the talk show host has in his bid for action from those who believe as he does.

I think we have already agreed that Bin Laden doesn't speak for Islam, nor does he represent Islam, nor does he have the authority to issue a fatwa, so I'm not sure why his actions reflect on Islam.

[sirs]

A) it's not based on "my" definition
B) nor was it "I" who bring "fatwa" into the discussion

It was a Call on Islam to rise up.  Radicals took up the call, in the name of Islam and Bin Ladin's Fatwa.  End of story