Author Topic: At the Iraq oil auction  (Read 8476 times)

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Michael Tee

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Re: At the Iraq oil auction
« Reply #75 on: January 03, 2010, 10:21:41 PM »
<<Your mistake MT is in thinking the world should turn out the way you want it to. >>

That is not a mistake, BSB.  I want the world to be fairer and I would like to see more respect for international law. 

How could it possibly be a mistake to think that the world should have more law and justice?  Or that the very country which took the lead in forming the UN and the international conventions against unprovoked wars of aggression and torture of prisoners should adhere to the very institutions and laws which it had taken the lead in making?

BSB

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Re: At the Iraq oil auction
« Reply #76 on: January 03, 2010, 10:37:18 PM »
MT

First of all I highly doubt a lot of your assumptions. Secondly, everybody has a bitch about something. Things never turn out the way YOU want. That's the way it is. I didn't want us to invade Iraq in the first place. Didn't turn out that way though. You may think Iraq should move in direction A, or not move at all.  Probably isn't going to turn out that way.  That doesn't make you right, and them wrong. That doesn't make everyone one who goes against your view of the world evil. Come on man, learn to work with what is. Hope for better when you want, but work with the cards your dealt. Otherwise you're just gong to drive yourself, and everyone else in your immediate environment nuts.

Amianthus

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Re: At the Iraq oil auction
« Reply #77 on: January 03, 2010, 10:41:10 PM »
That's totally beside the point.  Nobody offered up all of America's mines and oil wells on auction and nobody ever will.

Err, how do you think that Shell got the contracts?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: At the Iraq oil auction
« Reply #78 on: January 03, 2010, 10:52:07 PM »
<<Err, how do you think that Shell got the contracts?>>

How important is this?  I mean are we talking about a few wells or 70% of America's production?

Secondly, Royal Dutch-Shell often incorporated local companies, Shell Canada being one, but there were dozens of them.  Are you talking about Shell U.S. or the real thing, the parent company of all the other Shells itself?

Third, we'd still be talking about apples and oranges, since when Iraq put up its oil fields we were talking about virtually 100% of the national assets, whereas the U.S. has many other valuable resources besides oil.  That's why, if you noticed, I didn't suggest that the U.S. sell off only its oil wells, I specifically mentioned oil wells, mines and plants. (All in pure sarcasm, of course; I was not really suggesting that America sell off all its assets to the Chinese for a quick fix of cash, only trying to demonstrate the absurdity of plane's suggestion that Iraq was doing the smart thing, the thing most favourable to its own national interests.)

So I think your question is taking this discussion off on a tangent that has little if any relevance to the point we are supposedly discussing, which was the Iraq oil auctions.

Michael Tee

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Re: At the Iraq oil auction
« Reply #79 on: January 03, 2010, 11:14:36 PM »
<< . . . learn to work with what is.   . . .work with the cards your dealt.>>

Hmmm . . .

You might have a point there . . .

Thanks                 

Amianthus

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Re: At the Iraq oil auction
« Reply #80 on: January 03, 2010, 11:25:40 PM »
The made in Iraq constitution did not permit sale of national resources to foreignersbusiness what they (Iraq) did.

"Prior to the regime change in April 2003, French and Russian oil companies possessed oil contracts with the Saddam Hussein regime that covered roughly 40 percent of the country's oil wealth. French oil giant Total Fina Elf had won contracts to develop the Majnoon and Nahr Umar oil fields in southern Iraq, which contain an estimated 26 billion barrels of oil (25 percent of Iraq's oil reserves). Russian company Lukoil had won the contract to develop the West Qurna field, also in southern Iraq, which has an estimated 15 billion barrels of oil."
http://www.heritage.org/research/Internationalorganizations/bg1748.cfm#pgfId-1110130
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: At the Iraq oil auction
« Reply #81 on: January 03, 2010, 11:48:59 PM »
That's interesting.  It'd also be interesting to know when the contracts were let.  My guess would be late in Saddam's reign, when his regime was weakened by the U.S. attacks of the First Gulf War and the US-organized UN boycott, which had drastically weakened the country and forced it to sell off the 40%.

Probably the US invasion was organized in the hopes of prying the other 60% out of the Iraqi people's hands, perhaps even forcing an ouster of Lukoil and Elf in favour of US or British interests, but as we know, the Iraqis put up a much stiffer fight than expected, and the US, unable to force their puppet Chalabi on them, had to settle for much less than total control.  Hence the results of the auctions, which on the surface at least, seem like a slap in the face to the Americans (and may well be.)  The end result of the war, though, was that 100% of the nation's resources had been put up for sale, and the country now finds itself in the same position as pre-Revolutionary Iran, with all of its assets in the hands of foreigners.  We'll have to wait and see how long the Iraqi people are prepared to put up with THAT kind of shit.

BSB

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Re: At the Iraq oil auction
« Reply #82 on: January 04, 2010, 04:06:23 AM »
I haven't been following every post in this debate so my apologies mainly to you, MT, and Ami,  if this ground has been covered before.

These contracts are TSA service contracts.  As such they are more limited then the PSA contracts given out by your "socialist" friend Saddam Hussein.  TSA contracts do not allow for ownership of reserves or a share in profits. Both ownership of, and profit from, Iraq's oil reserves will remain in the hands of the Iraq.

Secondly, I don't think your prediction/asesment that America's strategy, regarding oil, in invading Iraq was largely concentrated on serving oil interests, Big Oil, be they national, or international, was the correct prediction, or asesment.  I suspect that America's interest in Iraq's oil had much more to do with raising its capacity irregardless as to which oil companies would directly benefit in the short term. 

For western economic interests to be served, during this change over from fossil fules to whatever,  the higher and more diverse the world's oil production is, the better off America, and the west is.



BT

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Re: At the Iraq oil auction
« Reply #83 on: January 04, 2010, 04:12:48 AM »
Quote
For western economic interests to be served, during this change over from fossil fules to whatever,  the higher and more diverse the world's oil production is, the better off America, and the west is.

That makes sense.


Plane

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Re: At the Iraq oil auction
« Reply #84 on: January 04, 2010, 09:03:15 AM »
http://confinder.richmond.edu/admin/docs/local_iraq1990.pdf


<<I thought it was marginally monarchist.>>

I'm not sure what you mean by "marginally monarchist," but there is no mention of a monarch in either the Ba'ath or the puppet constitution that the Americans got Professor Noah Feldman to write up for the occupied country after the fall of Saddam's Ba'athist regime.



Was there a canadate to eventually replace Saddam who was not an heir of Saddam?

Michael Tee

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Re: At the Iraq oil auction
« Reply #85 on: January 04, 2010, 12:02:24 PM »
<<Was there a canadate to eventually replace Saddam who was not an heir of Saddam?>>

The only apparent succession were the two sons of Saddam, Uday and Qusay, both of whom were murdered by U.S. forces.  One of them has a son, whereabouts unknown, who may rise to power if the Ba'ath Arab Socialist Party can ultimately overthrow the present collaborationist government, unless of courst the U.S. can murder him as well.  All surviving grandsons of Saddam are therefore in hiding.  Whether there is a real dynasty or not, it seems evident to most of them that the U.S.A. is intent upon physically massacring the entire male line in order to forestall a Ba'athist renascence.

It's fairly well known that Saddam tried to concentrate power in the hands of a small band of fellow tribesmen from his home base of Tikrit, known as the Tikritis.  Although his sons would have had a power base substantial enough to make them serious contenders, it's hard to say if the same charisma would have passed on down to the grandsons.  Bloodlines are more important in the Shi'ite factions than they are on the Sunni side.  I would have guessed that other, more powerful Tikritis would have won out against any grandson in the fight for succession to Saddam's mantle, particularly as Qusay was a relatively private person and Uday was widely despised and hated.

Rich

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Re: At the Iraq oil auction
« Reply #86 on: January 04, 2010, 12:04:37 PM »
>>I haven't been following every post in this debate so my apologies mainly to you, MT, and Ami,  if this ground has been covered before.<<

Isn't he just the most sincere considerate poster you've ever seen?

lol

Michael Tee

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Re: At the Iraq oil auction
« Reply #87 on: January 04, 2010, 12:33:58 PM »
<<These contracts are TSA service contracts.  As such they are more limited then the PSA contracts given out by your "socialist" friend Saddam Hussein.  TSA contracts do not allow for ownership of reserves or a share in profits. Both ownership of, and profit from, Iraq's oil reserves will remain in the hands of the Iraq.>>

I'm not familiar with either of the terms, TSA and PSA.  However, I can grasp the essentials of a contract that provides a flat fee per barrel for services rendered and excludes a share of the profits (thus insulating the provider from both the upswings and downswings in the future price of oil) as well as excluding ownership.  The negotiation of any oil deal would be complex; the two basic parties must each decide on the form of contract most advantageous to itself and if the less advantageous form is chosen, then compensation for that must be sought in various other features of the contract.  Ultimately  a bottom line is reached, where each party can predict a low-end and high-end net benefit to itself for having entered into the deal. 

I think everything depends on the deal and not the form - - that is, whatever TSA or PSA contracts are, that a company can either make money or go broke on either a TSA or a PSA contract, depending entirely on the terms negotiated for that particular contract.  My guess would be that whatever form of contracts were let, and on whatever terms, that the Iraqi government is doing one hell of a lot worse than it would have done under Saddam, and the multi-nationals one hell of a lot better, otherwise why bother with the invasion at all?  IF, however, the Iraqi government is holding its own, this is certainly not a testimony to the benevolence of the U.S. government, but only to the utter incompetence, even as criminals, of the Bush-Cheney administration, in failing to reach its nefarious goals.  They started a war for the oil of the Iraqi people, and botched the job so badly that they never got what they came for.

<<Secondly, I don't think your prediction/asesment that America's strategy, regarding oil, in invading Iraq was largely concentrated on serving oil interests, Big Oil, be they national, or international, was the correct prediction, or asesment.  I suspect that America's interest in Iraq's oil had much more to do with raising its capacity irregardless as to which oil companies would directly benefit in the short term. >>

I won't argue with that.  It's plausible and somewhat consistent with my revised concept of the general idea being to get the oil out of the hands of the Iraqi people and into the hands of the "multi-nationals," from which the American companies could benefit by purchase and re-sale, or even from consistent markets wherein sales of oil everywhere continue to be denominated in U.S. dollars and with a larger and more dependable Mid-East oil supply continuing to serve its European and Asian customers, there would be less upward pressure on the cost of America's traditional supplies.

BSB

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Re: At the Iraq oil auction
« Reply #88 on: January 04, 2010, 12:56:58 PM »
Let me more blunt, MT, you have no idea what you're talking about. None, zip, nada. 

Amianthus

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Re: At the Iraq oil auction
« Reply #89 on: January 04, 2010, 01:04:08 PM »
I'm not familiar with either of the terms, TSA and PSA.

PSA = Production Sharing Agreement
TSA = Technical Service Agreement

The former, the profits of production are shared between the owner and the service company. The latter, the service company only provides a service for a fixed fee, all of the profits above the fixed costs go to the owner.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)