Author Topic: Opportunity vs Outcome  (Read 15719 times)

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Universe Prince

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Re: Opportunity vs Outcome
« Reply #60 on: May 28, 2010, 12:05:13 AM »

I tried.  Rather than jumping up and down calling you a liar in every other sentence (Oh god, now he's going to say that was a lie, because he never called me a liar in every other sentence.  The irony of the hyperbole will yet again be ignored, I'm sure) I tried serious debate forum questions.


Questions that did absolutely nothing to clarify the intended meaning of your list. So, no, you didn't try to follow your own advice and clarify your meaning. And hyperbole was never ignored. Lies, however, are lies. And when I say one thing and you claim I said something else entirely, that is not hyperbole but rather a lie.


If you must have the last word, the floor is yours


Okay. Sirs, I have tried and tried and tried to explain myself to you. Line after line of text was expended trying to explain my positions to you. No matter what I said, you still said untrue things about my positions. Often you said the same untrue things I had already explained as untrue. Repeatedly saying false things when they have been explained as false is called lying by pretty much everyone I know, except perhaps you and Michael Tee. He seems to want to call it "reductio ad absurdum". You want to call it "analysis" or "reaching conclusions." There is nothing wrong with reaching a conclusion about someone else's position based on what they say. What is wrong is expressing the conclusion as if the other person said it or claimed it. What is wrong is claiming someone meant something and then continuing to insist that even when that someone bothers to correct you. These are the things you're doing, and they are not honest debate. In light of the fact that you do this repeatedly and frequently, answering a lot of questions from you so you can try to claim more falsehoods about what I said or meant would be nothing but a waste of your time and mine. That you seem upset I didn't go along with it bothers me not even a little bit. And I am not sorry that I stopped pandering to your penchant for claiming I said or meant things I did not say or mean. I'm not sorry I started calling your lies for what they are.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Plane

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Re: Opportunity vs Outcome
« Reply #61 on: May 28, 2010, 12:35:56 AM »

You are highly prone to wishfull thinking , what measures to prevent the spread of STDs are more than 80% effective?


Other than abstinence, I don't know, but I am not going to support government banning all sex to prevent the spread of STDs. On the other hand, legal prostitution where in prostitutes are required to be free of diseases can help prevent the spread of STDs.


Other than abstenence you do not know?
Other than abstinence no one knows !
Even getting a safety measure  complyance rate nearly 80% is so extremely difficult that it may as well be discussed as fiction.
What draconian measures would be necessacery to insure that all leagal prostitutes were free of all STDs?
 If a prostitute has two to six customers each night is she/he going to the all night clinic each time for a fresh test each time?
As if such tests were effective at detecting infection early in the incubation period ,
 actually no they are not. More or less for each disease ,it is quite possible to be infectious before any test can detect the disease.
  Regulations and licenseing on plumbing ensure that any plumber doing his job properly will produce improved safety for his customers , so much so that it is difficult to break into the business without a long apprentice period , but there is no potential for makeing regulation to license sex workers effective at promotion of public health by any means that do not regulate the very lives of the prostitutes and their customers to a high degree impossible to attain for an illicit activity .

What is your idea of an effective measure?
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 12:42:38 AM by Plane »

Plane

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Re: Opportunity vs Outcome
« Reply #62 on: May 28, 2010, 12:41:32 AM »

In any case I don't think that I am proveing much to you , it is very simple to merely say that all evidence presented is imperfect in some way.


I'm sure most evidence is imperfect, but when are you going to present some?


I never expected to change your mind


I don't expect to change your mind. But that doesn't prevent us from having a discussion.


Yet look now at what it is that keeps the Libertarian cause from growing much. Your arguements could easily be misconstrued as advocacy of haveing sex with everything , tho I presented a very long list of sexual deviances you came down in favor of all of them. Nothing need be forbidden.

Right?


Wrong. I did not come down in favor of any of them. At least half of them I have not even addressed yet. And while a discussion about sex between connecting human adults might be misconstrued to endorse "sex with everything" it would take some pretty erroneous thinking to get there. Actually, what keeps the (small 'l') libertarian cause from growing is not enough discussion of the ideas in the public arena. That is slowly changing. Though you do illustrate one problem some people have. They conflate libertarian ideas about law with personal beliefs about morality. If you allow this legally, then you approve of it. That is not the case, though seemingly you think so.
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/index.html

How does every debate devolve into a discussion of the quality of debate?

Quote
They conflate libertarian ideas about law with personal beliefs about morality. If you allow this legally, then you approve of it. That is not the case, though seemingly you think so.
Only seemingly, not actually! might I seem to think so ,I am quite aware of the principals that the government governs best which governs least, That there must be a certain amount of right to be wrong and that legislation of morality does not produce any morality. These cliche's hardly bear repeating . Just as you are no advocate of sexual devancy merely because you do not want any sort of it to be officially discouraged only seemingly so, I also am no advocate of moral fiat as law just because I want to be conservative with the changes of taboos reforced by law.

Only seemingly are you quibbling to maintain that polyandry and bigamy  have to be carefully defined as sexless as though sex were no part of marrage contracts though you imply that this same is implyed. only seemingly is this a diversion from the main discussion since evidently the discussion itself is of itself.

Only seemingly do the Libertarians in general hold any opinions in common tot he effect that all things unwholesome should be promoted ,in actuality Libertarians merely advocate that nothing at all be discouraged by force of law unles the necessity of such law can be proven, while also demanding that each word of each bit of evidence be parced to a degree garunteeing that no such discussion shall ever end.

Therefore for the nounce and for the sake of this argument ,(if this collection of verbage deserves such an appellation) we shall resolve that incest  , bigamy , beastiality , homosexuality , polyandry , prostitution and pornography do not involve sex.

Now, is it still possible to answer the question." What sort of sex between consenting adults do you think the government needs to prevent?"?

Plane

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Re: Opportunity vs Outcome
« Reply #63 on: May 28, 2010, 12:46:30 AM »
And yet again your supposed "proof" is nothing more than my conclusions of both your meaning & intent, of YOUR words.  My hyperbole & sarcasm aside, there's nothing nefarious or ..........


Dear Sirs.

     I am haveing a blast.

You?

sirs

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Re: Opportunity vs Outcome
« Reply #64 on: May 28, 2010, 01:58:20 AM »
*snicker*, as I said, it was a pleasure enduring this "serious debate", despite how off the deep-end Prince has been, in his accusations.  I'm sure he means well    ;)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Opportunity vs Outcome
« Reply #65 on: May 28, 2010, 02:10:05 AM »
*snicker*, as I said, it was a pleasure enduring this "serious debate", despite how off the deep-end Prince has been, in his accusations.  I'm sure he means well    ;)

I like Prince , tho it can be demanding to have a debate with him.

He is a real trooper and is willing to carry forward with dogged effort the nailing down of every niggling detail.

Sometimes to the point at which I wonder If I am speaking the same language.

It is a challenge , if I can actually improve my command of language and detailed knoledge to the point that I can produce a cogent debate with UP I will feel quite accomplished.

Meantime I must try to avoid being side tracked into recursive discussions of the debate about the quality of the debate , or little side issues such as whether exotic versions of marrage are about sex or not. Visions of eternal verbage play in my imagination and I run the danger of forgetting what my origional point was.

Really though he is debateing us both (or us all sometimes ) as if there were no work involved , can't help but admire that level of energy. 

sirs

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Re: Opportunity vs Outcome
« Reply #66 on: May 28, 2010, 02:13:29 AM »
I concur
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Universe Prince

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Re: Opportunity vs Outcome
« Reply #67 on: May 28, 2010, 03:10:57 PM »
Okay. I get it. This is all about mocking me. I'm a little slow, but I get it now. I'm tempted to complain, but that would just be futile whining. Anyway, Plane, I'm glad you and Sirs had fun. You got me. You suckered me in. I guess that means you win. Congratulations. You played a good game. And I clearly lost. I just wish I had known the rules when we started.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Plane

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Re: Opportunity vs Outcome
« Reply #68 on: May 28, 2010, 03:32:56 PM »
Okay. I get it. This is all about mocking me. I'm a little slow, but I get it now. I'm tempted to complain, but that would just be futile whining. Anyway, Plane, I'm glad you and Sirs had fun. You got me. You suckered me in. I guess that means you win. Congratulations. You played a good game. And I clearly lost. I just wish I had known the rules when we started.

I apologise for createing such an impression!


I do not consider you to have lost anything , you have proven yourself more earnest than I am willing to be , is that loosing?

I ment what I said sans snark , debating you is demanding. I get a good workout by attempting to meet your standard.

sirs

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Re: Opportunity vs Outcome
« Reply #69 on: May 28, 2010, 04:12:20 PM »
Apparently Plane, criticizing of Prince is tantamount to mocking him.  No wonder he didn't contribute anything more substantive in the thread about criticizing Obama is tantamount to sedition     :-\
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 04:29:02 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Opportunity vs Outcome
« Reply #70 on: May 28, 2010, 04:30:10 PM »
Apparently Plane, criticizing of Prince is tantamount to mocking him.  No wonder he didn't contribute anything more substantive in the thread about criticizing Obama is tatamount to sedition     :-\

I am sorry to have hurt his feelings.


UP has a wonderfull ability to be cogent , I hope he can cope whith my coping with that.

Universe Prince

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Re: Opportunity vs Outcome
« Reply #71 on: May 28, 2010, 05:36:30 PM »
My feelings are not hurt. I merely realized what was going on. No big deal.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

sirs

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Re: Opportunity vs Outcome
« Reply #72 on: May 28, 2010, 05:47:27 PM »
Yea, an attempt at serious debate.  Would have been nice if we were all on the same page.  No biggie though, at times even entertaining
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Universe Prince

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Re: Opportunity vs Outcome
« Reply #73 on: May 28, 2010, 06:26:35 PM »
You just can't let it go, can you?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

sirs

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Re: Opportunity vs Outcome
« Reply #74 on: May 28, 2010, 06:30:32 PM »
Mirror time again

My bad, I forgot, you needed the last word.  sorry
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle