Truths We Dare Not Speak

[Michael Tee]

Don't kid yourself, I'm not making any representation as to where the wage levels would end up after massive legal or illegal immigration and there's certainly no guarantee that they'd support "American Lifestyle" but I'd also bet that there are millions of Americans already living well beneath the level of "American Lifestyle" right now.  As long as you have a capitalist economic system, there is not going to be any one "American Lifestyle."

[Universe Prince]

I find your description of the process somewhat disturbing. Requisition talent from overseas? Demand people be brought to them for work? And yeah, 'requisition' means to require or demand, so don't tell me you didn't say demand. Aren't you the person who told me labor should not be treated like a physical property/good?

requisition: a written request for something authorized but not made available automatically

try to keep it honest prince.

I have. I know what requisition means. Look it up sometime. And you, Mr. "libertarians never do anything" have got no room to tell me to keep anything honest. And I'm waiting for an explanation as to why labor is not to be traded like a physical good but somehow foreign people are.

If Company A is in search of a electrical engineer and they can not find a suitable candidate domestically with the particular skillset they need at the salary level they are willing to pay then they notify their states labor department who in turn notifies the federal Bureau of Labor, who crosschecks the database of foreign applicants who meet these specifications and notifies the company, small or large that they may have a candidate for them. If the candidate is acceptable the company becomes his or her  sponsor. Much like in the old days when legal immigrants needed a sponsor. I see nothing onerous or difficult or exclusionary about this process.

Rocket science is easy too. A cylinder with one open end is filled with fuel, and when the fuel is ignited away goes the rocket. See? Nothing difficult about rocket science at all.

Your example of how your plan works is laughable. You have assumed that this situation would somehow magically be legally this simple and straightforward and easy. Nothing exclusionary about this process? So you're not going to use this to keep unskilled labor out? I thought that was the whole point, which would make it inherently exclusionary. That only those people who are lucky enough to be chosen would be allowed in also makes it exclusionary. You see nothing onerous or difficult, but you have not explained what the foreigner has to do to apply, what regulations are in place to determine who is allowed to apply, does it allowing a worker in mean just the person or does his family get to come in too, what farms who would otherwise hire migrant workers are going to have to do to be allowed to hire immigrants or if they will even be allowed to hire immigrants at all. So while indeed the process as you explained it does not seem difficult, it only seems so because you have glossed over all the details that would make it seem so.

[Universe Prince]

Considering we currently have double-digit unemployment, would somebody like to point out a "market" for labor that can't be accommodated domestically?

The one we already have where people who already live here are generally not trying to get the jobs that immigrant workers take.

[Universe Prince]

The problem is Free Trade.  The solution is tariff walls.

No, the problem is a lack of free trade. The solution is to get the artificial barriers out of the way. When farmers in other countries don't have to compete with cheap corn and grain dumped into their local market thanks to U.S. agriculture subsidies, they can do more to improve their situation at home, which means they'll be able to create jobs there, resulting in less reason for people to immigrate here to look for a job. And no insurance agents get forced into migrant labor in the process.

[Religious Dick]

Considering we currently have double-digit unemployment, would somebody like to point out a "market" for labor that can't be accommodated domestically?

The one we already have where people who already live here are generally not trying to get the jobs that immigrant workers take.

Show an example. Every example I know of where illegals got axed, there were lines of citizens lined up the next day to apply for the jobs.

[Universe Prince]

Show an example. Every example I know of where illegals got axed, there were lines of citizens lined up the next day to apply for the jobs.

I have not seen those stories. Feel free to show me some.

If there were so many citizens ready and willing to work those jobs, why weren't they applying for and working in those jobs in the first place?

[Michael Tee]

<<No, the problem is a lack of free trade. The solution is to get the artificial barriers out of the way. When farmers in other countries don't have to compete with cheap corn and grain dumped into their local market thanks to U.S. agriculture subsidies, they can do more to improve their situation at home, which means they'll be able to create jobs there, resulting in less reason for people to immigrate here to look for a job. And no insurance agents get forced into migrant labor in the process.>>

Why won't it work in reverse?  Why won't the abolition of farm subsidies leave U.S. farmers forced off the land unable to compete with third world agriculture on a level playing field?  And what happens to your model when it's not farmers we're talking about but factory workers?

[BT]

Look it up sometime.

I did

2 a : the act of requiring something to be furnished b : a demand or application made usually with authority: as
(1) :  a demand made by military authorities upon civilians for supplies or other needs
(2) : a written request for something authorized but not made available automatically

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/requisition

And you, Mr. "libertarians never do anything" have got no room to tell me to keep anything honest. And I'm waiting for an explanation as to why labor is not to be traded like a physical good but somehow foreign people are.

You are the one who provided examples of what libertarians have done and the best you came up with is a bill languishing in committee.

And who says foreign people would be traded like physical goods. Registering to be on the skill list would be voluntary, who said anything about coercion, other than your dishonest portrayal of my example.

Your example of how your plan works is laughable.

It is not my plan. It is my explanation of Hanson's plan. Again your misrepresentation is blinding. But truth be known it really isn't Hanson's plan either as there are programs in place very similar to his ideas. Take a look at H2A visas for the unskilled and H2b for the skilled.

[Religious Dick]

Show an example. Every example I know of where illegals got axed, there were lines of citizens lined up the next day to apply for the jobs.

I have not seen those stories. Feel free to show me some.

If there were so many citizens ready and willing to work those jobs, why weren't they applying for and working in those jobs in the first place?

http://www.npr.org/blogs/globalpoolofmoney/2008/08/after_immigration_raid_locals.html
http://www.wcfcourier.com/news/local/article_fa0b0586-cadc-11de-ab38-001cc4c002e0.html

[Universe Prince]

Look it up sometime.

I did

Then don't accuse me of dishonesty.

And who says foreign people would be traded like physical goods.

Your description looked remarkably like it.

Registering to be on the skill list would be voluntary, who said anything about coercion, other than your dishonest portrayal of my example.

Indeed, who said anything about coercion? I am pretty sure I did not mention coercion. Not even one time.

Your example of how your plan works is laughable.

It is not my plan. It is my explanation of Hanson's plan. Again your misrepresentation is blinding.

Oh for the love of pizza... Fine. Your explanation of Hanson's plan is laughable. Though notably, I don't see Hanson posting here. What is blinding is this double standard where you say any untrue thing you like, and then accuse me of dishonesty. I am beginning to suspect honest discussion with you is not possible.

[BT]

Am i being dishonest when i say that the two examples YOU provided of libertarian contributions were weak contributions at best? One in committee, the other a movement by a talk show host.

[Universe Prince]

http://www.npr.org/blogs/globalpoolofmoney/2008/08/after_immigration_raid_locals.html
http://www.wcfcourier.com/news/local/article_fa0b0586-cadc-11de-ab38-001cc4c002e0.html

The story at the second link doesn't seem to have much to do with your position. That you posted the link to a story about a community facing economic hardship after a lot immigrants left it is interesting.

The story at the first link, says the plant began offering the community employment before the immigration raid. The article linked to by the NPR site quotes an economic professor as saying the area has a labor shortage problem. So I don't believe you've made your case.

[Universe Prince]

Why won't it work in reverse?  Why won't the abolition of farm subsidies leave U.S. farmers forced off the land unable to compete with third world agriculture on a level playing field?  And what happens to your model when it's not farmers we're talking about but factory workers?

At least you admit subsidies are not about creating a level playing field. I doubt that ending farm subsidies would force all farmers off the land or leave them unable to compete. Farm and agriculture subsidies were eliminated in New Zealand and as I understand it, some farms then failed but others adapted and resorted a a strange thing called innovation, and now New Zealand farms are doing quite well.

Factory workers where? In the U.S. or overseas? What happens when corporations are punished less for opening factories in other countries and providing jobs for people in other countries? Maybe more jobs there and less reason to immigrate to the U.S? Perhaps you mean what about factory workers here in the U.S. I would hope they would learn to find new jobs, like the people who came before them learned to find new jobs when the U.S. began to move from an agrarian economy to one more industrialized.

[Universe Prince]

Am i being dishonest when i say that the two examples YOU provided of libertarian contributions were weak contributions at best? One in committee, the other a movement by a talk show host.

You would not admit to your lie in that thread, so I have no reason to rehash it here. And now you're avoiding your new lies in this thread and the obvious flaws in your example of Hanson's plan. Which, according to you, isn't really Hanson's plan. So I guess we're done.

[BT]

Are you claiming there are no h2a and h2b visa programs?