Author Topic: Just not there  (Read 22811 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Just not there
« Reply #90 on: August 20, 2010, 01:20:08 PM »
Quote
But you are associated with the murderer, even though you're not one.

Is that association justified? Is it rational?

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Just not there
« Reply #91 on: August 20, 2010, 01:23:03 PM »
Neither, but it still exists, and it would still be inappropriate for you to insist on being at that funeral, when the family doesn't want you there.

Can you respect that?

Can the Imam?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Just not there
« Reply #92 on: August 20, 2010, 08:43:32 PM »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Just not there
« Reply #93 on: August 20, 2010, 09:11:33 PM »
Neither, but it still exists, and it would still be inappropriate for you to insist on being at that funeral, when the family doesn't want you there.

Can you respect that?

Can the Imam?

What's the old saying. Your rights end, where mine begin?

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Just not there
« Reply #94 on: August 20, 2010, 11:51:34 PM »
And again since this isn't a rights issue, I can only assume they end, when you say so
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Just not there
« Reply #95 on: August 21, 2010, 12:09:20 AM »
And again since this isn't a rights issue, I can only assume they end, when you say so

Sure it is. The mob wants to restrict a basic freedom in this country to a specific group of individuals in this country because another specific group of individuals might be offended, irrationally at that.

And that is not what rights are about, though in a nutshell that is what this story is about.



Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Just not there
« Reply #96 on: August 21, 2010, 02:06:10 AM »
Is there a nice way to erect a swasticka over a Jewish graveyard?

Lets say you make it clear that the swasticka is actually a Bhuddist swasticka and not a Natzi swasticka at all , your motives have nothing to do with offending the visitors to the graveyard , none at all.


Feel free to substite a star of David or cross over a Muslim grave yard or a Yellowjacket over the grave of Uga IV or whatever works to fit the particular situation , as long as the general principal is that no one owes any consideration to the emotions of anyone elese, what are we , our brothers keeper?

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Just not there
« Reply #97 on: August 21, 2010, 02:43:24 AM »
And again since this isn't a rights issue, I can only assume they end, when you say so

Sure it is.

No, its not.  Sorry, but your minority constituency is in the wrong here.  "The mob" wants to respect those who lost thousands on one of the worst days in U.S. history.  If they wanted to "restrict a basic freedom", they'd be lobbying their congress critters for some legislative sleight of hand.  They'd be using bullhorns to claim how Islam is evil, and must be purged from the American Psyche. 

And what is this "mob" really doing?....asking that folks show a little more respect, and move the LOCATION of this proposed Mosque, just a little further away.  Same prayers, same congregation, same religious freedom, simply demonstrating a little more tolerance & sensitivity.  Apparently that's just too damn hard a thing to expect


Is there a nice way to erect a swasticka over a Jewish graveyard?

Now Plane, you might offend thousands of Jewish families, who lost whole family trees, in WWII.  Oh wait, according to some, such criticism would be intolerant, hateful even.  Might offend a whole bunch of Germans







"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Just not there
« Reply #98 on: August 21, 2010, 02:56:58 AM »
Is there a nice way to erect a swasticka over a Jewish graveyard?

Now Plane, you might offend thousands of Jewish families, who lost whole family trees, in WWII.  Oh wait, according to some, such criticism would be intolerant, hateful even.  Might offend a whole bunch of Germans








[/quote]
In Germany the Swatsticka is mostly forbidden as are many symbols associated with that party and regime.

I think modern Germans would like all the rest of us to forget the third reich, I wonder if Muslims calling attention to themselves in connection to 9/11 ... keeps the problem resefresh.

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Just not there
« Reply #99 on: August 21, 2010, 06:19:04 AM »
Quote
Is there a nice way to erect a swasticka over a Jewish graveyard?

Is a Mosque the equivalent of a swastika? Would a cross over the cemetary be equally offensive? How about a couple blocks away?

Let's face it, if a mosque is offensive to the families it would offend miles away from ground zero. proximity shouldn't matter. just as a swatika to Jewish person would be offensive no matter where it was.








Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Just not there
« Reply #100 on: August 21, 2010, 06:31:56 AM »
Quote
Is there a nice way to erect a swasticka over a Jewish graveyard?

Is a Mosque the equivalent of a swastika? Would a cross over the cemetary be equally offensive? How about a couple blocks away?

Let's face it, if a mosque is offensive to the families it would offend miles away from ground zero. proximity shouldn't matter. just as a swatika to Jewish person would be offensive no matter where it was.








Tell me about that Lockerbie Mosque.

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Just not there
« Reply #101 on: August 21, 2010, 07:05:59 AM »
Quote
Is there a nice way to erect a swasticka over a Jewish graveyard?

Is a Mosque the equivalent of a swastika? Would a cross over the cemetary be equally offensive? How about a couple blocks away?

Let's face it, if a mosque is offensive to the families it would offend miles away from ground zero. proximity shouldn't matter. just as a swatika to Jewish person would be offensive no matter where it was.








Tell me about that Lockerbie Mosque.

It's closer to Dumphries.

and again are you saying a the presence of a mosque = the symbolism of a swastika?




Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Just not there
« Reply #102 on: August 21, 2010, 12:19:04 PM »
Islam is not comparable to Nazism. The analogy is incorrect.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Just not there
« Reply #103 on: August 21, 2010, 01:10:48 PM »
Xo is correct here.  Naziism is far more comparable to Communism
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Stray Pooch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 860
  • Pray tell me, sir, whose dog are you?
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Just not there
« Reply #104 on: August 22, 2010, 08:35:48 AM »
Is there a nice way to erect a swasticka over a Jewish graveyard?

Lets say you make it clear that the swasticka is actually a Bhuddist swasticka and not a Natzi swasticka at all , your motives have nothing to do with offending the visitors to the graveyard , none at all.


Feel free to substite a star of David or cross over a Muslim grave yard or a Yellowjacket over the grave of Uga IV or whatever works to fit the particular situation , as long as the general principal is that no one owes any consideration to the emotions of anyone elese, what are we , our brothers keeper?


False analogy, Plane.  The correct analogy would be can you erect a GERMAN flag near a Jewish cemetary.  Or perhaps more specifically, could you place a GERMAN cultural center near Auschwitz?  Not all Germans are Nazis.  Not all Muslims are Al Quaeda.  The very fact that you and Sirs use this association is strong evidence that the motivation here is prejudice.  Sirs similarly states (to paraphrase) that Muslims are associated with terrorism because Al Quada committed terrorism in the name of that faith.  This is no more valid than saying Christians are associated with terrorism because of abortion clinic bombers or Mormons are associated with polygamist sects in Texas.  Each of these associations are real, and each is equally unjustified.  They are based not on rational understanding but emotional misunderstanding.  Personally, I think that conforming your actions to the false perceptions of others in order to be "sensitive" is just like caving to other forms of political correctness.   

In fact, erecting a Muslim cultural center near ground zero is a very logical move for an organization that wants to fight the perception that Islam supports terrorism.  It makes sense to go to the literal "scene of the crime" to present the message that Islam does NOT want to endorse the act.  Where better to reach out, day-to-day, to average citizens, tourists and others who see only the face of Muslim extremism in front of them?   I understand that people don't WANT them there, but that is entirely a function of prejudice.  There is no more validity to the emotional outrage against Islam in this country than there is to the common perception among Muslims that America is out to persecute and destroy them.  If we assume that the cultural center and Mosque are exactly what they claim to be, there is no moral or ethical reason not to build it there.  It may be unwise, but only in the sense that it is was unwise for a black man to march in protests in the south, or for a schoolteacher to wear a cross around her neck, or for a gay man to come out of the closet.   A lot of people will protest about it, and it may cost you.  But freedom isn't free. 

If the group compromises and moves the location, it would be a gesture of goodwill and speak loudly to the issue of Muslim cooperation in the community.  But I suspect that, rather than acknowledge that, the opponents of the Mosque will hail it as a victory for freedom against extremism.  It would be exactly the opposite.
Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .