Romania Marks 20th Year Since Kommie Kollapse

[Plane]

<<What I am talking about is the mistreatment of prisoners under Romanian Communism and supposedly under the watchful eye of the Soviets.>>

Which from your own source appeared to consist of beatings no different from those administered in prisons all over the world.  When you attempted to link the mistreatment of Romanian prisoners in Romanian jails by Romanian guards to communism your posting became totally ridiculous.

AS long as it isn't a crime to be insuficiently communist. What that story reminded me of was "Clockwork Orange".

[Michael Tee]

It has elements of Clockwork Orange.  Any attempt at political "re-education" has those echoes.  Probably Clockwork Orange was inspired by communist "re-education."

The worst communist "re-education" is more humane than Abu Ghraib.  No re-education campaign ever killed more people than the Americans killed in either Viet Nam or Iraq.  So I'm not impressed by American "shock and horror" over communist re-education projects.  Strikes me as kinda hypocritical, in fact.

[Plane]

It has elements of Clockwork Orange.  Any attempt at political "re-education" has those echoes.  Probably Clockwork Orange was inspired by communist "re-education."

The worst communist "re-education" is more humane than Abu Ghraib.  No re-education campaign ever killed more people than the Americans killed in either Viet Nam or Iraq.  So I'm not impressed by American "shock and horror" over communist re-education projects.  Strikes me as kinda hypocritical, in fact.

Quite the contrary Mao has to be the champion and Stalin the runner up in the twentyeth century mass murder competition.
I think Hitler is the second runner up , but not for want of trying very hard.


Abu Graib was shut down by Americans , the whole sorry episode lasted less than a year and was punishable under laws we already had.
Stalins goons and Maos cadres retired with honors , with a few notable exceptions like Stalins right hand man Beria and Maos Widow , who served well as scapegoats after the great mens death.

[Henny]

Right - debtless. The debt was paid off before the regime was overthrown. Which is remarkable.

The propaganda is that it was debtless, however, it was in debt for most of it's existence. It wrote off a lot of debt when formed, then promptly went back into debt, and only cleared it's debts immediately before the regime was overthrown. It spent nearly it's entire existence in debt.

True.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Romania has a long tradition of corruption, sadism and abuse of power, dating back to the time when it was the Roman province of Dacia. The culture is a part of this, I hardly think it's genetic.

[BT]

The worst communist "re-education" is more humane than Abu Ghraib.  No re-education campaign ever killed more people than the Americans killed in either Viet Nam or Iraq.  So I'm not impressed by American "shock and horror" over communist re-education projects.  Strikes me as kinda hypocritical, in fact.

Apples to oranges. If you want to compare body counts the Soviets win hands down.

Historians working after the Soviet Union's dissolution have estimated victim totals ranging from approximately 4 million to nearly 10 million, not including those who died in famines.[78] Russian writer Vadim Erlikman, for example, makes the following estimates: executions, 1.5 million; gulags, 5 million; deportations, 1.7 million out of 7.5 million deported; and POWs and German civilians, 1 million ? a total of about 9 million victims of repression.[79]

Some have also included deaths of 6 to 8 million people in the 1932?1933 famine as victims of Stalin's repression. This categorization is controversial however, as historians differ as to whether the famine was a deliberate part of the campaign of repression against kulaks and others,[53] or simply an unintended consequence of the struggle over forced collectivization.[48][80][81]

Accordingly, if famine victims are included, a minimum of around 10 million deaths?6 million from famine and 4 million from other causes?are attributable to the regime,[82] with a number of recent historians suggesting a likely total of around 20 million, citing much higher victim totals from executions, gulags, deportations and other causes.[83] Adding 6?8 million famine victims to Erlikman's estimates above, for example, would yield a total of between 15 and 17 million victims. Researcher Robert Conquest, meanwhile, has revised his original estimate of up to 30 million victims down to 20 million.[84] Others maintain that their earlier higher victim total estimates are correct

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin

[Plane]

This categorization is controversial however, as historians differ as to whether the famine was a deliberate part of the campaign of repression against kulaks and others, or simply an unintended consequence of the struggle over forced collectivization.

Controversy?
What is the diffrence?

[Michael Tee]

<<Abu Graib was shut down by Americans >>

No it wasn't, it was handed over to the Iraqi puppet government to continue operations on behalf of their American masters.

<< the whole sorry episode lasted less than a year and was punishable under laws we already had.>>

I'll translate that into English for those who might take it at face value:  They cleaned up their act when the photos were published, learned to torture more discretely and in other places, and a few scapegoats from the lowest ranks received slap-on-the-wrist "punishments" while the higher-ups in the chain of command who were responsible for the whole thing laughed all the way into their retirement.

<<Stalins goons and Maos cadres retired with honors , with a few notable exceptions like Stalins right hand man Beria and Maos Widow , who served well as scapegoats after the great mens death.>>

I might as well translate that into English too:  Those who defended the Revolution against its enemies in Russia and China were honoured for their efforts.  Beria lost out in a power struggle and paid with his life for it (whereas J. Edgar Hoover, who had blackmailed his way to power over an entire nation was rewarded for his efforts to kill Martin Luther King and destroy the anti-war movement with an honourable retirement, never being called to account for his crimes.)

[Michael Tee]

<<Russian writer Vadim Erlikman, for example, makes the following estimates: executions, 1.5 million . . . >>

Cry me a fucking river.  There were executions of the enemies of the people, deportations of Nazis and Nazi collaborators, deaths of Nazi POWS (Help me!!!  I'm choking on my tears) and so what?  If "Russian writer Vadim Erlikman" ever wanted to publish the mirror-image figures of the casualties of pre-Revolutionary anti-Semitic pogroms, Holocaust victims, Russian POWS, etc., they would dwarf any of this crybaby stuff he writes for American consumption concerning the fate of the perpetrators.

<<Some have also included deaths of 6 to 8 million people in the 1932?1933 famine as victims of Stalin's repression. This categorization is controversial however, as historians differ as to whether the famine was a deliberate part of the campaign of repression against kulaks and others,[53] or simply an unintended consequence of the struggle over forced collectivization.[48][80][81]>>

That's hilarious.  "Some have also included . . . "  Who are "some?"  They are the apologists for the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, the Nazi collaborators of WWII, and by extension the apologists for the other Nazi collaborators, the Romanian Iron Guard included, who have to fabricate some acceptable "reason" (other than the true reason, anti-Semitism) for their collaboration with the Nazis and active participation in the Holocaust, in which the Ukrainians in particular played a prominent role as concentration camp guards and sadists.  So they seized upon the phony "famine" claims, as if any government would deliberately starve its own farmers, miners and labourers to death.  The most ridiculous claim ever advanced, but apparently not too dumb for the brainwashed American public, fed on decades of unrelenting Cold War propaganda.

This stuff is pure bullshit, yet you guys are lapping it up like it was milk.  Well, you were raised on bullshit and you developed an appetite for it, whether the bullshit is WMD or "Islamofascism" or the "millions" killed by the evil communists.  What can I say but "Bon appetit?"

[BT]

The ends always justifies the means, as long as it isn't America.

Because we are better than that, ya know.

[Michael Tee]

<<The ends always justifies the means, as long as it isn't America.

<<Because we are better than that, ya know.>>

You're not better than anyone else, that's for God-damn sure.  Probably a whole lot worse than some, truth be told.  But you should ASPIRE to be "better than that." 

Because that's what your founders did.  And you are really letting them down.

[BSB]

Think you could find an even smaller closet to scream in, snowblower?

[BT]

But you should ASPIRE to be "better than that."  But you should ASPIRE to be "better than that." 

Why?

[Michael Tee]

<<Why?>>

I don't know.  Don't you want to live up to the ideals of the Founding Fathers, or at least try to?  Were their ideals so wrong, so misguided?  They looked alright to me.

[BT]

I don't know.  Don't you want to live up to the ideals of the Founding Fathers, or at least try to?  Were their ideals so wrong, so misguided?  They looked alright to me.

The ideals of the Founding Fathers were codified in the constitution, which according to prevailing conventional wisdom, is a living breathing document changeable to the times.

Others believe the document is more static with a strict process for amending as needed.

So which ideals are we talking about, the static,amended ideals or the fluid chameleon like ideals that the living breathing advocates have morphed them into.