DebateGate

General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Universe Prince on March 19, 2008, 06:08:43 PM

Title: Second Amendment right to revolution?
Post by: Universe Prince on March 19, 2008, 06:08:43 PM
From a National Journal article, available at Reason Online (http://www.reason.com/news/show/125584.html), by Jonathan Rauch:

      The second reason, by contrast, strikes modern Americans as archaic, if not embarrassing: States' armed populations could resist and overthrow a tyrannical central government, acting as an insurrectionary militia--much as Americans had recently done in overthrowing British rule. That may have made sense in 1790, but today the insurrectionary rationale would seem to imply a right to keep and bear surface-to-air missiles and grenade launchers, among other things.      

I'm not sure why this would be embarrassing. Seems perfectly reasonable to me. Is it not? Tell me why.
Title: Re: Second Amendment right to revolution?
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on March 19, 2008, 06:31:41 PM
Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

does to me too
otherwise why are tyrants always so anxious to disarm the population even in non-war times?
because tyrants know a well armed citizenry is dangerous to their undemocratic goals
imo it's as true today as it was in the 1700's
Title: Re: Second Amendment right to revolution?
Post by: Universe Prince on March 20, 2008, 05:55:10 PM
So no one disagrees? Huh.
Title: Re: Second Amendment right to revolution?
Post by: fatman on March 20, 2008, 06:12:36 PM
That's always been my interpretation UP.  The founding fathers didn't want this project that they had started to turn into a monster or revert to a monarchy, so they (in my opinion) enshrined the right of the people to change that government, by peaceful means and by violence.
Title: Re: Second Amendment right to revolution?
Post by: Universe Prince on March 20, 2008, 08:01:04 PM
I think so too, but I had guessed that someone would be sure to object to the notion that the Second Amendment protects someone's right to own grenade launchers or machine guns or anti-tank weapons or the like. I guessed wrong. Oh well.
Title: Re: Second Amendment right to revolution?
Post by: Lanya on March 21, 2008, 04:46:41 AM
If we, the people, are the government....then we are going to need to roust malingering tyrants every once in awhile. 
Title: Re: Second Amendment right to revolution?
Post by: Plane on March 21, 2008, 08:45:17 AM
I feel my right to own a M-2 heavy machine gun is being infringed.
Title: Re: Second Amendment right to revolution?
Post by: fatman on March 21, 2008, 09:25:04 AM
I feel my right to own a M-2 heavy machine gun is being infringed.

It probably is.
Title: Re: Second Amendment right to revolution?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 21, 2008, 10:47:57 AM
Let us suppose that everyone decided that we needed to eliminate the president and VP.  We could further assume that the Pres and VP knew that most of the people wanted to remove them with extreme prejudice, and were prepared.

What would be the smallest weapon that would be required?

I am guessing it would take something more deadly than a 22-caliber weapon, some M-80's and cherry bombs.

I am thinking that the "less is more" theories of Don Rumsfeld would tend to be rather deadly to the insurrectionists.

Perhaps this is the sort of weapon the Supremes should consider we had the right to own.
Title: Re: Second Amendment right to revolution?
Post by: Amianthus on March 21, 2008, 10:51:03 AM
What would be the smallest weapon that would be required?

In the hands of a skilled shooter, a .30 rifle is amazing.
Title: Re: Second Amendment right to revolution?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 21, 2008, 11:01:27 AM
I do not own a gun, lest someone like Rich, who has expressed a desire to "put a bullet in my head", wrest it from me and do his thing.
So I was just asking.

We might need Jason Bourne to fire said weapon.
Title: Re: Second Amendment right to revolution?
Post by: Amianthus on March 21, 2008, 11:23:48 AM
We might need Jason Bourne to fire said weapon.

I got a friend in Baltimore that practices shooting at 100yds - with a 5 yard target. The bulls eye is about the size of a pencil eraser and he'll hit it 4 times out of 5. And never more than 1/4" off the bulls eye.
Title: Re: Second Amendment right to revolution?
Post by: fatman on March 21, 2008, 12:35:50 PM
In the hands of a skilled shooter, a .30 rifle is amazing.

There's a lot of variation in the ballistics and accuracy of .30 caliber rifles.  A .30-06, .30-40 Krag, 30-30, and .308 Win all have varying capabilities of range, accuracy, and foot poundage.  Any of those would be sufficient to kill a person, and all of the above calibers listed above have been used by soldiers in war, with the exception of the .30-30.

A 22 caliber rifle also has a wide variation, a .22 rimfire or .22 magnum is not the same thing as a .22-250 or .223, which are notoriously accurate calibers.
Title: Re: Second Amendment right to revolution?
Post by: Amianthus on March 21, 2008, 12:41:57 PM
There's a lot of variation in the ballistics and accuracy of .30 caliber rifles.  A .30-06, .30-40 Krag, 30-30, and .308 Win all have varying capabilities of range, accuracy, and foot poundage.

My personal favorite is the .303 British, but I was actually thinking of the .30-06. That's probably the most common .30 caliber rifle.

You want sheer power in addition to accuracy out of a rifle bullet? Try the .45-70 or .45-90. ;-)
Title: Re: Second Amendment right to revolution?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 21, 2008, 02:07:13 PM
Carabina 30-30:

Carabina treinta treinta
Que los rebeldes portaban;
Y dec?an los maderistas
Que con ella no mataban.


Con mi treinta treinta me voy a marchar
A engrosar las filas de la rebeli?n
Si mi sangre piden mi sangre les doy
Por los explotados de nuestra naci?n.

It seems to have been adequate in 1910-1921.
Title: Re: Second Amendment right to revolution?
Post by: Amianthus on March 21, 2008, 02:44:52 PM
My personal favorite is the .303 British, but I was actually thinking of the .30-06.

Interesting factoid: You can fire a .303 British round out of a rifle chambered for .30-06, but not the opposite.
Title: Re: Second Amendment right to revolution?
Post by: fatman on March 21, 2008, 03:07:51 PM
Interesting factoid: You can fire a .303 British round out of a rifle chambered for .30-06, but not the opposite.

I've heard that, but have never had the guts to try it.  I've had exactly one .303, and I hated it.  It was probably more the gun than the caliber, but I loathed that thing after running a couple of rounds through it.  I use a Krag for deer hunting, and a .338 Win for elk.  Grouse and pheasant get an old 20 gauge side by side that I picked up at, of all places, a yard sale.


You want sheer power in addition to accuracy out of a rifle bullet? Try the .45-70 or .45-90. ;-)

Well, plan on getting your shoulder reset after you dislocate it too  ;) .  I have a .45-70 lever action, and for sheer power, yeah, it's great, but it really doesn't have much in the way of range, and is far too large to hunt anything in the lower 48, though it'd probably be good for moose.  The one time I went for moose I shot it with a .338, and had to hit it three times before it went town.  Moose is tasty, and there's a lot of meat, but I really didn't like that grizzly bear sitting 40 yards away while I was field dressing that moose.  It's a pretty creepy experience, especially if you've ever seen one run in person, and not on tv.
Title: Re: Second Amendment right to revolution?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on March 21, 2008, 03:15:38 PM
I agree. Watching a bear run at YOU is distinctly different that watching one run at the cameraman on TV.

I think I'd pick the latter.

Most people can run faster than a deceased moose. I am assuming that this is why you are here to tell the tale.

Title: Re: Second Amendment right to revolution?
Post by: Amianthus on March 21, 2008, 03:21:35 PM
I've had exactly one .303, and I hated it.  It was probably more the gun than the caliber, but I loathed that thing after running a couple of rounds through it.

Which rifle did you have? I have three Lee-Enfields chambered in .303.

Well, plan on getting your shoulder reset after you dislocate it too  ;) .  I have a .45-70 lever action, and for sheer power, yeah, it's great, but it really doesn't have much in the way of range, and is far too large to hunt anything in the lower 48, though it'd probably be good for moose.

My father has the split breach Springfield ("trapdoor") chambered in .45-70. You have to be prone or kneeling to shoot it - if you're standing when you pull the trigger, you won't be for long... According to the Army, this rifle & round combination has a lethal range of 3,500 yds. Why do you consider it to be "not much in the way of range"?
Title: Re: Second Amendment right to revolution?
Post by: Plane on March 21, 2008, 04:08:59 PM
http://www.odcmp.com
Title: Re: Second Amendment right to revolution?
Post by: fatman on March 21, 2008, 04:58:30 PM
Which rifle did you have? I have three Lee-Enfields chambered in .303.

Mine is a Lee-Enfield SMLE, or offically a Lee-Enfield Short Magazine Rifle MkIII .  My major gripe with it is that it's just very uncomfortable to shoot, my personal opinion is that the barrel is too light and the balance is off, but I'm no gun smith and not even much of a gun buff, so it's hard to say for certain.

My father has the split breach Springfield ("trapdoor") chambered in .45-70. You have to be prone or kneeling to shoot it - if you're standing when you pull the trigger, you won't be for long...

Mine is just a standard lever action, no trapdoor.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those old split breaches worth a lot of money?  Seems like I've heard or read that somewhere.

According to the Army, this rifle & round combination has a lethal range of 3,500 yds. Why do you consider it to be "not much in the way of range"?

When I first read this, I thought "Ah, what a bunch of BS," from the experience I've had shooting mine.  The bullet drop and trajectory arc is drastic, from my experience.  So I did some digging online, and lo and behold:

Quote
The minimum acceptable accuracy of the .45-70 from the 1873 Springfield was approximately 4 inches at 100 yards, however, the heavy, slow-moving bullet had a "rainbow" trajectory, the bullet drop measured in multiple yards (meters) at ranges greater than a few hundred yards (meters). A skilled shooter, firing at known range, could consistently hit targets that were 6 X 6 feet at 600 yards ? the Army standard target, and a skill mainly of value in mass or volley fire, since accurate aimed fire on a man-sized target was effective only to about 300 yards.

After the Sandy Hook tests of 1879, a new variation of the .45-70 cartridge was produced, the .45-70-500, which fired a heavier 500 grain (32.5 g) bullet. The heavier 500 grain bullet produced significantly superior ballistics, and could reach ranges of 3,500 yards (3200 m), which were beyond the maximum range of the .45-70-405. While the effective range of the .45-70 on individual targets was limited to about 1,000 yards (915 m) with either load, the heavier bullet would produce lethal injuries at 3,500 yards. At those ranges, the bullets struck point-first at roughly a 30 degree angle, penetrating 3 one inch (2.5 cm) thick oak boards, and then traveling to a depth of 8 inches (20 cm) into the sand of the Sandy Hook beach. It was hoped the longer range of the .45-70-500 would allow effective volleyed fire at ranges beyond those normally expected of infantry fire[5].

 
So I went in looked in my gun case, and sure enough, I'm shooting 405's.  So on this I think that we're both correct.
The article goes on to state however:

Quote
The main limitation of the .45-70 is the relatively low velocity which puts a practical limit on shots at game beyond 120 meters or so, despite its ability to kill at many times that distance. The trajectory of the bullets is very steep, which makes for a very short point blank range. This was not a significant problem at the time of introduction, as the .45-70 was a fairly flat-shooting cartridge for its time. Shooters of these early cartridges had to be keen judges of distance, wind and trajectory to make long shots; the Sharps Rifle in larger calibers such as .50-110 was used at ranges of 1000 yards[9].

I will have to try out the 500 grain loads, perhaps that will make a difference.

Link:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45-70 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45-70)
Title: Re: Second Amendment right to revolution?
Post by: Amianthus on March 21, 2008, 05:21:26 PM
Mine is a Lee-Enfield SMLE, or offically a Lee-Enfield Short Magazine Rifle MkIII .  My major gripe with it is that it's just very uncomfortable to shoot, my personal opinion is that the barrel is too light and the balance is off, but I'm no gun smith and not even much of a gun buff, so it's hard to say for certain.

One of mine is the SMLE MkIII ("Short Magazine Lee-Enfield"). I added a pad to the butt ('cause the steel butt plate just has no cushioning effect at all....) but other than that, it seems balanced pretty well. Are you sure the barrel hasn't been shortened on it? I've also got a Mk4 which was a former British sniper rifle and that one shoots real good...

Mine is just a standard lever action, no trapdoor.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those old split breaches worth a lot of money?  Seems like I've heard or read that somewhere.

So I've heard. My father bought it many years ago, I don't think he's ever had it valued.

The bullet drop and trajectory arc is drastic, from my experience.

Most modern shooters are not used to the high trajectories of older bullets. Modern bullets have a much flatter trajectory.