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Messages - Lanya

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3256
3DHS / Re: At least we have moral clarity.
« on: September 24, 2006, 11:50:12 PM »
    The guys who have been convicted of the abuse evidenced in the pictures you brought here are going to be in Levanworth a long time , trials can take place of US personell who torture and it has never been otherwise.

     So you would like it to require less evidence or mete out harsher punishments?


      An Al Quieda member that slices up a prisoner is lible to get a commendation , you are trying to make an empty point , our troops will be treated badly when they are captured by Al Queda and this has always been so and there is no point in pretending that Al Quieda has any respect for the Geneva conventions.

Plane, where in this new law do you see any mention of Al Qaeda?
It's not a coupon, "Good for wars in which Al Qaeda is a part of, expires on death of OBL."
It is a law.  It will show other countries that we have chosen to  codify our disrespect of the Geneva Convention into law, and they may be Chinese, North Koreans, etc. 
Are you saying---surely not?---that if we face evil enemies, that use torture, we lower ourselves to that level?

We did not do that in WW2 and we should not do it now.  It is not American.

3257
3DHS / Re: At least we have moral clarity.
« on: September 24, 2006, 07:46:40 PM »
Quote
I think that anyone who is pro-torture for the enemy must accept that he or she is also pro-torture for our own troops.  It will be used if we use it.  That's why the Geneva Conventions came about. 
I can't understand that. Why would you put our troops at risk?   

You mean our troops were never tortured in prior conflicts? McCain might beg to differ.


I was just looking up something....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_March

Several of my close friends were the children of Bataan Death March survivors.  Their fathers were tortured, and did not live to very old ages. 
And this is what happened to one of the war criminals in that war:
"War crimes trial
News of this atrocity sparked outrage in the US, as shown by this propaganda poster. The newspaper clipping shown refers to the Bataan Death March.

After the surrender of Japan in 1945, Homma was convicted by an Allied commission of war crimes, including the atrocities of the death march out of Bataan, and the atrocities at Camp O'Donnell and Cabanatuan that followed, and executed on April 3, 1946 outside Manila."


3258
3DHS / Re: At least we have moral clarity.
« on: September 24, 2006, 07:36:50 PM »
Does this mean that the Bush administration is willing to accept the same techniques being used on their own troops?



Yes , but can our opponents improve that much?

I do not think they can.

You mean they can't do this to our troops?
http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/

I think that anyone who is pro-torture for the enemy must accept that he or she is also pro-torture for our own troops.  It will be used if we use it.  That's why the Geneva Conventions came about. 
I can't understand that. Why would you put our troops at risk? 

3259
3DHS / War Crimes
« on: September 24, 2006, 04:18:16 PM »

www.suntimes.com

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Bush seeks immunity for violating War Crimes Act

September 23, 2006

BY ELIZABETH HOLTZMAN

Thirty-two years ago, President Gerald Ford created a political firestorm by pardoning former President Richard Nixon of all crimes he may have committed in Watergate -- and lost his election as a result. Now, President Bush, to avoid a similar public outcry, is quietly trying to pardon himself of any crimes connected with the torture and mistreatment of U.S. detainees.

The ''pardon'' is buried in Bush's proposed legislation to create a new kind of military tribunal for cases involving top al-Qaida operatives. The ''pardon'' provision has nothing to do with the tribunals. Instead, it guts the War Crimes Act of 1996, a federal law that makes it a crime, in some cases punishable by death, to mistreat detainees in violation of the Geneva Conventions and makes the new, weaker terms of the War Crimes Act retroactive to 9/11.

Press accounts of the provision have described it as providing immunity for CIA interrogators. But its terms cover the president and other top officials because the act applies to any U.S. national.

Avoiding prosecution under the War Crimes Act has been an obsession of this administration since shortly after 9/11. In a January 2002 memorandum to the president, then-White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales pointed out the problem of prosecution for detainee mistreatment under the War Crimes Act. He notes that given the vague language of the statute, no one could predict what future ''prosecutors and independent counsels'' might do if they decided to bring charges under the act. As an author of the 1978 special prosecutor statute, I know that independent counsels (who used to be called ''special prosecutors'' prior to the statute's reauthorization in 1994) aren't for low-level government officials such as CIA interrogators, but for the president and his Cabinet. It is clear that Gonzales was concerned about top administration officials.

Gonzales also understood that the specter of prosecution could hang over top administration officials involved in detainee mistreatment throughout their lives. Because there is no statute of limitations in cases where death resulted from the mistreatment, prosecutors far into the future, not appointed by Bush or beholden to him, would be making the decisions whether to prosecute.

To ''reduce the threat of domestic criminal prosecution under the War Crimes Act,'' Gonzales recommended that Bush not apply the Geneva Conventions to al-Qaida and the Taliban. Since the War Crimes Act carried out the Geneva Conventions, Gonzales reasoned that if the Conventions didn't apply, neither did the War Crimes Act. Bush implemented the recommendation on Feb. 7, 2002.

When the Supreme Court recently decided that the Conventions did apply to al-Qaida and Taliban detainees, the possibility of criminal liability for high-level administration officials reared its ugly head again.

What to do? The administration has apparently decided to secure immunity from prosecution through legislation. Under cover of the controversy involving the military tribunals and whether they could use hearsay or coerced evidence, the administration is trying to pardon itself, hoping that no one will notice. The urgent timetable has to do more than anything with the possibility that the next Congress may be controlled by Democrats, who will not permit such a provision to be adopted.

Creating immunity retroactively for violating the law sets a terrible precedent. The president takes an oath of office to uphold the Constitution; that document requires him to obey the laws, not violate them. A president who knowingly and deliberately violates U.S. criminal laws should not be able to use stealth tactics to immunize himself from liability, and Congress should not go along.

Elizabeth Holtzman, a former New York congresswoman, is co-author with Cynthia L. Cooper of The Impeachment of George W. Bush: A Practical Guide for Concerned Citizens.

Copyright © The Sun-Times Company
All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

http://www.suntimes.com/cgi-bin/print.cgi?getReferrer=http://www.suntimes.com/output/otherviews/cst-edt-ref23b.html

3260
3DHS / Does it work?
« on: September 24, 2006, 04:08:04 PM »
Does It Work?
President Bush says harsh interrogation tactics are a key tool in the War on Terror. Two authors consider the painful dilemma posed by his claim:

By Edwidge Danticat
Sunday, September 24, 2006; B01

MIAMI Afew years ago, as I worked on a documentary film about torture survivors in exile from my native Haiti, I met a young woman who under questioning by a military officer was slapped until she became deaf in one ear, was forced to chew and swallow a campaign poster, and was kicked so hard in the stomach by booted feet that she kept slipping in and out of consciousness in a pool of her own urine and blood. Another woman had an arm chopped off and her tongue sliced in two before she was dumped in a mass grave, miles from her home.

When I met these women, some time had passed since their ordeals. But they could still feel the hammering of the blows and hear the menacing voices, threatening to drown them, dismember them and set them on fire. The younger woman, Marie Carmel, remembers thinking about her mother. Manman will surely die if I'm killed, she thought. I have to stay alive for her. Alerte, whose arm and tongue were severed, kept thinking about her children as she climbed out of the corpse-filled pit and crawled to the side of the road where she found help. Both had no idea how much pain they could endure until then. They wanted to live, they remembered, to defy their torturers, to tell their stories.

"There is no need for torture," wrote Jean-Paul Sartre. "Hell is the other." Those women saw hell and came back. However, neither one told their torturers what they wanted to know. Marie Carmel did not reveal the names of her fellow pro-democracy activists. Alerte did not divulge the whereabouts of her husband, who was the real object of her captors' search.

For many who remember -- just as these women do, and my own parents do -- what it means to live under a dictatorial regime, a regime in which citizens must leave work or school to witness public executions, torture is not just an individual affliction but a communal one. And now, when political leaders in the United States are asking us as a society to consider not only the legal and moral ramifications of torture but its effectiveness, we are brought closer to these regimes than we may think. If we are part of all that has touched us, as Alfred Tennyson wrote, then we are all endorsers of torture when it is done in our name.

Torture aims for a single goal -- obtaining information -- but it achieves a slew of others. For one thing, it martyrizes the tortured. Think of the old Christlike images of Che Guevara's corpse in Bolivia -- or even of Christ himself.

While working on the documentary and researching the novel it eventually inspired, I interviewed torturers as well as their victims. I realized that torture diminishes us all by numbing us to human distress; the level of callousness in the society rises, with once unimaginable acts suddenly charted and rationalized.

"This is why we have this proverb," one repentant torturer told me, " bay kou bliye pote mak sonje ." The one who strikes the blow might easily forget, but the one who wears the scars must remember.

When seemingly noble ideals -- after all, what can be nobler than wanting to save lives? -- lead us to torture, the path to the torture chamber can find its way to our front door, just as it did for Marie Carmel, Alerte and countless others before them.

"The people who kill and torture and tell lies in the name of their sacred causes . . . " wrote Aldous Huxley, "these are never the publicans and the sinners. No, they're the virtuous, respectable men, who have the finest feelings, the best brains, the noblest ideals."

As a child growing up in a dictatorial state, I always dreaded the pounding I heard at some of my neighbors' doors at night, when many were yanked from their beds never to be seen again. The lucky ones returned from a pit that was as much a physical place as a darkness that would always surround them. They were missing an eye or some teeth; they showed swelling that would take weeks to go down or shaking that worsened over time. These markers of torment first drew me to people such as Marie Carmel and Alerte, women who could have been my mother or myself.

When I first encounter men and women who've been tortured, I notice their dramatic and disfiguring scars. But eventually I recognize their hardened core and, more often than not, their reinforced defiance and renewed commitment to that for which they were abused.

When I meet former torturers, they don't proudly stand up and say, "Here I am, a torturer." Unless they're infamous, they have sought to compartmentalize their lives. At a lively game of dominoes or across a family dinner table, they can distance themselves from their past in a way that their victims can never even attempt. Occasionally, though, they are unwittingly exposed by a child who might say, "Papa was in the military and worked in such-and-such prison at such-and-such time." The torturers squirm and change the subject, knowing they've been unmasked.

Rare is the opportunity, as we seem to have now, for the torturer to plot out methods in advance and in public. Should a person be strapped to a board and have water poured down his nose? Should she be forced to stand for long periods of time in the cold without being allowed to sleep? Should he be slapped in the chest, face or belly? These are almost novelistic questions with no more rational answers than some haywire plot or dark verse.

After first reading it as a young girl newly escaped from Jean-Claude Duvalier's dictatorship in Haiti, I recently rediscovered a poem called "The Colonel" by Carolyn Forché. The narrator describes dining with a dictator who, after the luxurious meal, empties a bag full of human ears on the table.

"I am tired of fooling around," he tells his visitor. "As for the rights of anyone, tell your people they can go [expletive] themselves."

He lifts his glass of wine, and with one sweep of his arm, brushes the ears to the floor.

When the ears hit the ground -- like those of all my disappeared neighbors, I imagine -- the narrator notices that some of them are pressed to the floor while others are catching "this scrap of his voice." My fear is that when it is most needed, none of our ears will bother to catch any voices at all. Then will the tortured see any reason to live on? And if they live, whom will they tell?

Haiti1791@aol.com

Edwidge Danticat, a Haitian American writer, is the author of "The Dew Breaker" (Knopf).

© 2006 The Washington Post Company
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/22/AR2006092201304_pf.html

3261
3DHS / I can't follow the threads
« on: September 24, 2006, 03:19:03 PM »
I'm sure I'm missing lots of posts, but half the time I can't find anything except "most recent posts."
I would say it's all laid out wrong, except I know I have this difficulty and always have, of following patterns that simply make no sense...to me, that is.   That included long division, for quite a while. 

Apologies in advance if anyone has a post they want me to see. I'd ask you to do a message in that case, and that way I'll be sure to see it.

3262
3DHS / Re: At least we have moral clarity.
« on: September 24, 2006, 04:16:27 AM »
Michael, that's what I would like to know.
I can think of various ways they're thinking about this:
1. American exceptionalism=no one would do that.
2. That's pre-9/11 thinking. We have eeevil enemies.
3. We are using aggressive interrogation, see? Not torture.  So no one better torture our guys.
4. Who cares? It's not my kids.
5. It's a volunteer force.....
etc....

This is unamerican and unacceptable.   I hope it doesn't happen, but I imagine there will come a day when our troops there will be tortured.  How will we react?  Bomb the city to glass?  Or will we just receive their bodies back here and mourn?  I just don't understand what has happened to my country.  I'm writing all the congressmen and senators, calling, writing media outlets. 

3263
Would anyone like top hear about my Pict ancestors?


Alas ,I know not how to prepare and wear woad.

http://www.tylwythteg.com/pict1.html

Well, I never knew this....
Says here they were "designs pricked into their skin...."
' This is usually interpreted in the light of Julius Caesar's comment "All the 'Britanni' paint themselves with woad which produces a bluish coloring.' Other, later, classical writers repeat this claim, often narrowing the application to inhabitants of the northern part of Britain and making reference to "puncturing" rather than "painting". The popular interpretation that developed might best be summed up by the early 7th century description by Isidore of Seville who says that the Picts take their name "from the fact that their bodies bear designs pricked into their skins by needles".'

3264
3DHS / Re: Did you know that Filet o' Fish is an al Qaeda favorite?
« on: September 24, 2006, 03:54:14 AM »
<<Were you decrying the U.S. for daring to hold thousands upon thousands of Germans during WWII without "having been convicted yet"??  >>

Decry what?  They were treated in accordance with the Geneva Conventions, weren't they?   

<<They're not your damn petty criminals H.  They didn't just try to hold up a 7/11 with a squirt gun.  They didn't just rough up some grandma and snatch her purse.  This isn't some crime investigation.  These are enemies taken during wartime acts. >>

Still don't get it, do ya?  That if they're criminals, they're not convicted of anything yet, and if they're "enemies taken during wartime acts," then they're entitled to the same Geneva Convention protection as the Nazis taken in WWII.

' It's hard to picture Haji Nasrat Khan as an international terrorist. For a start, the grey-bearded Afghan can barely walk, shuffling along on a three-wheeled walking frame. His sight is terrible -- he squints through milky eyes that sometimes roll towards the heavens -- while his helpers have to shout to make themselves heard. And as for his age -- nobody knows for sure, not even Nasrat himself. "I think I am 78, or maybe 79," he ventures uncertainly, pausing over a cup of green tea.

Yet for three and a half years the US government deemed this elderly, infirm man an "enemy combatant", so dangerous to America's security that he was imprisoned at Guantánamo Bay. '

http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,,1878415,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=12

3265
3DHS / At least we have moral clarity.
« on: September 23, 2006, 03:00:50 PM »
[....]
The bad news is that Mr. Bush, as he made clear yesterday, intends to continue using the CIA to secretly detain and abuse certain terrorist suspects. He will do so by issuing his own interpretation of the Geneva Conventions in an executive order and by relying on questionable Justice Department opinions that authorize such practices as exposing prisoners to hypothermia and prolonged sleep deprivation.

Under the compromise agreed to yesterday, Congress would recognize his authority to take these steps and prevent prisoners from appealing them to U.S. courts. The bill would also immunize CIA personnel from prosecution for all but the most serious abuses and protect those who in the past violated U.S. law against war crimes.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/21/AR2006092101647.html

3266
3DHS / A new test
« on: September 23, 2006, 02:48:57 AM »
Just what you were all asking for, a new test.
(Maybe you didn't ask for one but here it is anyway.)


           http://www.rethinkingschools.org/just_fun/games/mapgame.html

3268
The wider the pool, the less each person has to spend to make a difference. 
Fund nationally with income tax, which should go back to 1940 levels.

3269
Clots kill more people here a year than terrorists. 

Pick any industrialized nation, regardless of the health care system used.

Your quote would apply to that nation as well.

So, it's a pretty useless quote.
May not be quite on topic, but it's far from useless.  Shows that we can spend to the ends of the earth if it's War On Terror---but people's lives, ending here in this country, no money and no insurance?  Hell with them.   Let them die.
Civilized nations have universal health care.   OTHER civilized nations, I hasten to add.  Why don't we?  Aren't the people of our country a valuable resource?  Shouldn't we take care of them, as regards health care? 

3270
3DHS / Re: Agreement reached on interrogations
« on: September 22, 2006, 02:47:53 AM »
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/22/opinion/22fri1.html?_r=1&hp=&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print

http://balkin.blogspot.com/2006/09/senators-snatch-defeat-from-jaws-of.html

Senators Snatch Defeat From Jaws of Victory: U.S. to be First Nation to Authorize Violations of Geneva

Marty Lederman

I hope that that headline is a gross exaggeration, but based on a few quick seconds purusing the "compromise," I'm afraid it's not. [The Administration appears to agree. Stephen Hadley was crowing to reporters within minutes that the bill would authorize the CIA "program" to "go forward." And a "senior administration official" -- apparently Dan Bartlett -- told the Washington Post "that Bush essentially got what he asked for in a different formulation that allows both sides to maintain their concerns were addressed. 'We kind of take the scenic route, but we get there,' the official said."] [NOTE: I will be updating this post as we learn more, and if I have any time to parse the language more closely. I would dearly love if my initial impression -- and Hadley's -- is proven to be dead wrong. So I sincerely invite folks from the Senate staffs and elsewhere to write in with comments and corrections. [...........]

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