Author Topic: Bush and His Cult of Cronyism Sign Off On Torture (Then Lied About It)  (Read 6948 times)

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_JS

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Re: Bush and His Cult of Cronyism Sign Off On Torture (Then Lied About It)
« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2008, 03:15:45 PM »
They were worse that previous administrations, because they bragged about torturing people. Now the entire world knows that the US CIA and other institutions are ghouls and creeps.

Previously, you had to read Philip Agee's books and do some research to learn the ghastly things that were done int he name of American 'Democracy'.

There is a similar difference between a secret pervert and a public flasher.

It would be best to eliminate this forever from public policy. Throwing Rummy and Cheney in jail would be a good example for starters. Adding Juniorbush to the bunch would send an even better message.


I don't know XO. In a way I think that Bush has done the world a favor by casting light into these dark recesses and making it a public debate. That may not have been his intention, but why not make it the case anyway? It should be acknowledged. It should be brought to the light and, in my opinion, it should be removed from the possible actions this country will take. If we're a civilized society, then we need to take the steps to make it so. If we care about the value of human life, then we need to demonstrate that aspect of what it means to be American.

On the other hand, if we don't give a damn about human life. If we are truly Imperial in nature and support anything to protect "our way of life" then we need a definitive answer here to that end.
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Bush and His Cult of Cronyism Sign Off On Torture (Then Lied About It)
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2008, 11:46:08 PM »
I think that there are many Americans who are not only all for torturing anyone who opposes US imperialism, but would be all for bombing India, China or anywhere else that is necessary to ensure that the US keeps getting the lion's share of the world's resources. We do have a portion of the population in the US that is clearly all for imperialism, and has this wacko "It's us or them" mentality. They would literally prefer to nuke a million foreigners than to have the president come on TV and implore the people to keep 32 pounds of air in their tires.


Still, you have a point. It might be a good thing to bring this sordid bit about torture to light if it results in enough public opinion here ad abroad opposing it to put an end to it.

Perhaps McCain is actually against torture and would end its use. If so, he is better than Juniorbush and Cheney in that respect.
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Plane

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Re: Bush and His Cult of Cronyism Sign Off On Torture (Then Lied About It)
« Reply #47 on: April 16, 2008, 03:10:05 AM »
Plane, read this.....


You give the longest assignments!

Can you tell me what previous administritions have restricted torture as much as the Bush Administrition?

Before Abu Grabe came to light the Bush administration decided to fire an officer who frightened a prisoner, is there any evidence of FDR Trueman , Washington or anyone elese takeing such an action to discourage mistreatmet of prisoners?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Bush and His Cult of Cronyism Sign Off On Torture (Then Lied About It)
« Reply #48 on: April 16, 2008, 04:48:01 AM »
Is there any evidence of mistreatment of prisoners other than by Juniorbush?

He is the only one to round up foreigners on little or no evidence and throw them in jail for six years with no trial.
There were rules for how to treat POW's, and the US generally followed them. Al this flap started when Rumsfeld and Cheney declared that they had the right to torture the detainees because they were not POW's and therefore had no rights at all.

If torture was done, it was both infrequent and clandestine.
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Plane

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Re: Bush and His Cult of Cronyism Sign Off On Torture (Then Lied About It)
« Reply #49 on: April 16, 2008, 06:19:55 AM »
Is there any evidence of mistreatment of prisoners other than by Juniorbush?

He is the only one to round up foreigners on little or no evidence and throw them in jail for six years with no trial.
There were rules for how to treat POW's, and the US generally followed them. Al this flap started when Rumsfeld and Cheney declared that they had the right to torture the detainees because they were not POW's and therefore had no rights at all.

If torture was done, it was both infrequent and clandestine.


I suppose you do not know the bio of Geronimo.
Or that this stuff actually happened a lot in WWII.

Bush admiistration rules amount to the first formal restriction on this behavior that you know of?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Bush and His Cult of Cronyism Sign Off On Torture (Then Lied About It)
« Reply #50 on: April 17, 2008, 12:45:59 PM »
Look, this country should not allow torture starting NOW, period.
The past is past.

It is pretty obvious that Rumsfeld and Cheney wanted it known that we torture people, and that people were tortured at their command.
This is bad for the country.
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Lanya

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Re: Bush and His Cult of Cronyism Sign Off On Torture (Then Lied About It)
« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2008, 04:55:35 PM »
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/18/usa.guantanamo

Top US general 'hoodwinked' over aggressive interrogation

    * Richard Norton-Taylor
    * guardian.co.uk,
    * Friday April 18 2008
.
US military chief General Richard Myers

General Richard Myers. Photographer: Khalil Mazraawi/AFP

The US's most senior general was "hoodwinked" by top Bush administration officials determined to push through aggressive interrogation techniques for terror suspects held at Guant?namo Bay, the Guardian can reveal.

The development led to the US military abandoning its age-old ban on the cruel and inhumane treatment of prisoners.

General Richard Myers, the chairman of the US joint chiefs of staff from 2001 to 2005, wrongly believed that inmates at Guant?namo and other prisons were protected by the Geneva conventions and from abuse tantamount to torture.

The way he was duped by senior officials in Washington - who believed the Geneva conventions and other traditional safeguards were out of date - is disclosed in a devastating account of their role, extracts from which will be published in tomorrow's Guardian.

In his new book, Torture Team, Philippe Sands QC, a professor of law at University College London, reveals:

? Senior figures in the Bush administration pushed through previously outlawed measures with the help of unqualified and inexperienced military officials at Guant?namo.

? Myers believes he was a victim of "intrigue" by top lawyers at the department of justice, the office of the vice president, Dick Cheney, and Donald Rumsfeld's defence department.

? Myers wrongly believed interrogation techniques had been taken from the army's field manual.

The lawyers who pushed through the interrogation techniques - all of them political appointees - were Alberto Gonzales, David Addingon and William Haynes.

Others involved were Doug Feith, Rumsfeld's undersecretary for policy, and Jay Bybee and John Yoo, two assistant attorney generals.

The revelations have already sparked a fierce response in the US from those familiar with the contents of the book.

They are determined to establish accountability for the way the Bush administration violated international and domestic law by sanctioning prisoner abuse and torture.

The Bush administration has tried to explain away the ill-treatment of detainees at Guant?namo and the Abu Ghraib prison, in Baghdad, by blaming junior officials.

Sands establishes that pressure for the aggressive and cruel treatment of detainees came from the very top and was sanctioned by the most senior lawyers.

Myers, the most senior military officer of the most powerful country in the world, was one top official who did not understand the implications of what was being done.

Sands, who spent three hours with the former general, describes him as being "confused" about the decisions that were taken.

Myers did not realise that fundamental safeguards provided by the Geneva conventions and elsewhere were being abandoned by his own junior officers as well as political appointees in the administration, the author says.

He believed new techniques recommended by Haynes and authorised for use by the military at Guant?namo by Rumsfeld in December 2002 had been taken from the US army field manual.

Hopwever, none of the severe interrogation techniques came from the manual, and all breached established US military guidelines and rules.

The techniques included hooding, sensory deprivation and physical and mental abuse.

"As we worked through the list of techniques, Myers became increasingly hesitant and troubled," Sands writes. "Haynes and Rumsfeld had been able to run rings around him."

Myers and his closest advisers were cut out of the decision-making process, so he was not given suffficient opportunity to object to measures he now says he strongly disapproved of.

He did not know that Bush administration officials were changing the rules allowing interrogation techniques, including the use of dogs, amounting to torture.

"We never authorised torture, we just didn't, not what we would do," Myers said.

Sands comments: "[Myers] really had taken his eye off the ball ... he didn't ask too many questions, or inquire too deeply, and kept his distance from the decision-making process."

? Read the full story in Weekend magazine in the Guardian tomorrow and on guardian.co.uk


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Plane

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Re: Bush and His Cult of Cronyism Sign Off On Torture (Then Lied About It)
« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2008, 12:04:36 AM »
Look, this country should not allow torture starting NOW, period.
The past is past.

It is pretty obvious that Rumsfeld and Cheney wanted it known that we torture people, and that people were tortured at their command.
This is bad for the country.

So the Bush administration producing a reduction or restriction on this behavior more than previous presidents counts for nothing?

Both sides treated Prisoners rough in the Revolutionary war , the Civil war , and the torture of prisoners during WWII was pretty common.

The CIA dates only since WWII so its behavior is entirely contemporary , and except for the Church commission is uniformly bad.

To say that Bush did worse , with no baseline at all seems naive to me.

To expect Hillary Clinton or Barak Obama to improve the situation seems even more naive, they are more likely to return the situation to the state it was before the Bush Administration began to codify restrictions.