DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Plane on September 09, 2014, 12:18:44 AM
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First of all, if you want to say that minimum wage increases are not inflationary , you will have to explain inflation in terms of money remaining the same value while it requires less work to get the same amount.
This is not going to be easy , explaining how increases in mini wage are not necessarily inflationary is akin to an explanation of how water is not necessarily wet.
Now you start with a contract to work for an hour for six coins, the minimum wage goes up and you now get eight coins per hour. IN the fine print you would find that the six coins were quarters but the eight coins that replaced them are dimes.
This doesn't convert overnight, but it is fast enough that the inflation is fully felt in less than two years.
If you think I am wrong , consider that the people who think minimum wages are effective also think that they need to be increased on a regular basis.
So who really looses from the minimum wage?
People with a lot of cash , and people on fixed income .
Who wins from the minimum wage?
People who have borrowed a lot to buy income producing property.
Hey that is me!
Bring it on President Obama.
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again I`m not talk about of that . I`m talking about the broader effects to the wages. if you remember I was against raising the minimum wage till I realized how small the wage is compared it was 15 years ago. you stated the work is the same but did not compensate the value of the pay as time went by. everything else has gone up in price but not labor?? again it all looks like businesses have been undercutting their employee for quit sometime now and to claim not able to pay is very invalid. not many business are charging the same price today as ten years ago so how are they not able to handle it? this is mainly the topic that the value of pay has gone down but employer refusing to adjust basicly.
you analogy about the coin value does not work due to the fact wages are based on the total value not the number of coins. are you saying a business is not dependant on income from profit but more on savings from overhead? not exactly a stable businesses model
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Economists have recognized that the market responds both logical and illogically. Since people forced to be logical all the time, there needs to be a buffer of some sort fo fluctuations, and this is best done through programming a small amount of inflation into the economy: about 2 to 3 percent. If this is not done, what ou will see are wild fluctuations which cause booms and busts.
The few that have capital have used this to their advantage: they do not allow the powerless to acquire the power they need (through strikes and threats of strikes) to receive their share of inflation or their share of increases in productivity. And they seek to panic everyone by telling us that there are people who are are not worth existing, because they are insufficiently useful to deserve to earn enough to provide for themselves. This used to be only a small number of people, but now somehow the guy in Detroit who has to avoid freezing to death in the winter, must compete with the guy in Zamboanga, who does not, Just too bad, but that is the way things are. The landlord raises the rent every year, Kellogg's raises the price of cornflakes because Cargull raised the profits on corn. Tough shit, my brother, you need $12 an hour and a 40 hour week to survive, but you are3 worth only $5 an hour and we only need you 25 hours a week. Move in with the grandparents, live in your car, apply for foodstamps, it's your problem, not mine.
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Do you think Cargill is able to raise the profit on corn?
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the fact wages are based on the total value not the number of coins.
No , not total value , a fixed amount of coin is the minimum wage, a fixed number of dollars has no fixed value at all.
Way back when the dollar was a contract with the government to deliver to the bearer a fixed quantity of precious metal, the value of a Dollar was much less an intangible than it is now as a fiat.
The one thing that makes a dollar worth more than a sou is that people are willing to work to get them, or give up products and services to get them. That is all there is , do not over think it.
The minimum wage is not a floor on the value that must be paid for an hours work, it is a floor on the coin that can be called legal wages.
This is the same thing as a ceiling on the value of the dollar.
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Of course Cargill can raise prices. They can and they do. They have a major share of the corn. Transportation and storage are major factors in the price of commodities like corn.
Prices are set to get a maximum profit. If they charge too much, customers will find a substitute or do without.
In the US Pfizer has a monopoly on Viagra, which typically retails for $12.50 per pill. In other countries, the same substance and dosage can retail for under $2.00.
The 50 milligram pill sells for the same price as the 100 milligram pill.
Cargill does not have a monopoly on corn, but it is a bulky product and can spoil, so transportation and storage are costs that affect the price.Odds are the Chinese can grow corn, but they cannot compete for the American market because of transportation and storage costs.
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The weather is wrong in China, at least it is for now, they are not liable to compete with our corn crop.
But they are certainly welcome to try , you are right in enough of your statement that I think you could make the small jump to understand the rest.
Prices are set to get a maximum profit. If they charge too much, customers will find a substitute or do without.
Yes! Cargill always charges as much as they can, who would they be giving free corn to?
So Cargill cannot raise prices they can't and they don't, they just do as well as they can at the auction.
Because the price is not entirely under their control , and won't be until they can form a corn cartel.
Cartels or trusts like that are bad for the consumer , one of the most beneficial roles of government is the use of antitrust laws to encourage the rise of competition, which is very good for consumers.
One of the bad things government can do is nationalize an industry and close down competition, monopoly is the same disadvantage to the consumer even if it is the government forming the cartel.
Patent and copyright laws are intended to give monopoly rights to inventors and authors, in this case the consumer is not disadvantaged unfairly because without the inventor or author the product or composition would not exist , it is only fair to encourage invention and new work by allowing the inventor and author the maximum benefit from their work and investment.
In the case of drugs The US became very good and strong in the international competition by having good patent protection. After the patent expires all drugs become generic.
Not long ago the copyright law was strengthened so that it takes a lot longer for copyright to expire. Who benefits from this? Stephen King ? Stephen Kings estate? Stephen Kings readers?
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I've don't recall coin amount mention on the minimum wage only dollar amount. But again ii'm talking about the need to increase the spending power of the worker. I did not counter you statement less people will be employed but the remaining ones will be able to sustain and grow the businesses. The goal here is to increase spending. Larger number of low wage worker will only sustain walmart and not much else.
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The first thing that poor people are likely to spend money on is food. Wal*Mart's prices are lower on canned and packaged foods, but not on meat and produce , at least here in Miami. Wal*Mart's price on bananas is 69 cents a pound all the time: many Latino markets here sell for an low as 4 lbs. for a dollar. Meat, chicken, fish are all higher by a good 20%. Rent is another major drain on poor people.
Raising the minimum wage generally helps more people than it hurts. Abolishing the minimum wage would be a disaster.
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It kind of boils down to with minimum wage can a person afford the basic stuff. If not than the wage needs to be attentioned. Also if the basics is the only thing covered than alot if businesses go nowhere
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I see as pernicious the assumption that all jobs must be sufficient for supporting a person, and that all smaller jobs must be abolished.
In between the lemonade stands that kids like to erect, and the job a guy needs to first establish his household there is a spectrum of potential jobs that could exist but do not.
So young people who have little experience are either idle or participate in black market jobs , many participating in legal employment not at all, until they enter the full competition of the job market.
A 16 year old can earn pretty good money while he lives with his parents, but most 16 year olds are not competitive against 18 year and older workers .
Why not let some people work for tiny wages? Forbidding this does not produce a higher paying job nearly as much as it destroys the lower paying job.
Why indeed do any employers hire any employees? It is because the skill and effort of the employee will produce value for the employer above what the employer must pay for it, no other formula works .
If you are inexperienced , you are thereby low skill, how do you amass experience and thereby valuable skill?
For little, which breaks the law?
Or for nothing, which is legal.
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It is not a question of "letting some people work for tiny wages". No one wants to work for tiny wages. People who work for tiny wages do not do so because they see it as a wonderful thing: they do it out of desperation.
Companies manage to educate their workers to do the job when they really need them. They just would rather take the training out of the hides of the poor prople they hire.
No one is going to do away with the minimum wage, just like this country will never elect a Libertarian. People are too smart for that.
I went to work when I was 18 putting wheels on Ford Falcons. The training consisted of about three days. And I got paid for it. $2.35 per hour, almost three times the minimum age at the time of 80¢ an hour. And then 80¢ would buy me FOUR GALLONS of gas for my Studebaker and FOUR POUNDS of chuck steak.
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but that not what`s going on part-time jobs will not be effected and entry level jobs will still happen and the primary goal is spending power not ability to support. but we`ll see whose right. I`m pretty confident in my belief in fact our talk has actually strengthen my resolve. if that's the right phrase.
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Whatever.
This is one time when it would be very good for me to be wrong.
But I think we can already see a lot of reduction of entry level jobs and reluctance to bear the cost of training.
This is the fruit if the mini wage, and a bigger mini wage will hand over more of this fruit along with more rapidly shrinking money.
It is like holding sand in your hand, if I hand you more sand will you be holding more sand?
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We do not live in times of poverty and want. This country is far better off than it was in 1962 when I worked for Ford. There is PLENTY of money and resources to allpow everyone to have a decent life.
Fatcats crying poverty and wanting to hire people for nothing is a bucket of shit.
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Where are fat cats crying poverty?
That is no reason to object to the minimum wage.
Prices can be raised just as fast as wages, there is practically a chain between them. Fat cats are going to be fine , especially if they keep on making money.
The people hurt most are people with savings in cash, so this has become an unpopular thing to do with cash.
If you must forget Weimar Germany , then observe Zimbabwe , when your wallet is a wheelbarrow you will understand a lot more about the minimum wage.
Even the people who like the idea of the minimum wage a lot do not think that there can be a final top for it, they are going to want increases in the future, No?
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We have had a minimum wage for a really, really long time. It used to be possible to earn enough to afford to put yourself through college. This is no longer the case, because the minimum wage is in much of the country not enough to live on.
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We have had a minimum wage for a really, really long time. It used to be possible to earn enough to afford to put yourself through college. This is no longer the case, because the minimum wage is in much of the country not enough to live on.
Examine this statement!
Doesn't it fit my thesis that the mini wage is at fault for the situation as it is?
It could be worse, the increases in the mini wage could have happened more frequently.
They could even be made automatic. This would be a nightmare.
What do you know about steam engines?
Ever seen the "governor"?
The governor is a device that gives negative feedback to control the speed of the machine, when it is too fast the governor throttles it back, when it is too slow the governor opens the steam valve to speed it up ;negative feedback.
Imagine a steam engine that was fitted with a positive feedback governor. You might do this because your engine loved to get plenty of steam. This would be a short lived and useless steam engine wouldn't it?
Economic systems of positive feedback are pretty common in history , because they look good at first blush, but most of them do not last long.
Check out the Israeli experience with increasing wages and contract payments to match the rate of inflation, to correct for inflation month to month.
.......and over 400 pen-cent during 1984.’ ....
.................the frequency of payment of the cost of Living Allowance on wages increased from every six months in the mid—i 970s to
even’ month by the end of 1984........
........., the rate of indexation for wages increased
from 70 percent in the mid — 1970s to 80—90 percent in the 1980s at the same time the rate of indexation
of tax brackets increased from 70 to 100%........
......................Price-setters decide how often to change prices
by comparing two kinds of costs associated with such
changes: (a) the cost of changing the price, including
possible reactions of customers, competitor’s and the
general public (or the authorities)’, and (b) the loss
associated with not adjusting the existing price in
view of changing market conditions, The price will be
changed when the latter outweighs the former................
Lots more good stuff in that article https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/review/86/05/Adjusting_May1986.pdf
I think the data set produced by Israeli attempts to cure inflation by inflating represents one of the best experiments of its type ever done.
We are trying to do the same thing , but there are enough of us who understand negative feedback to throw a drogue out and slow the spiral.
I hope.
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When folks start to grasp that the minimum wage was never designed or meant to "live off of", as in a living wage, we might be able to make some serious end roads, and even possible compromises
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sirs, you don;lt know what you are talking about. That is a bloody lie.
In the 1960's you could actually live on 80 cents an hour. I had friends who did this. Some attended college as well.
It was possible to make it on the minimum wage until around 1970.
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sirs, you don;lt know what you are talking about. That is a bloody lie.
No, it's actually not. Even if you could live on .80/hr, the minimum wage was never imposed to be some form of living wage, that you could literally live off of:
The Walsh-Healey Public Contracts Act of 1936 required that firms manufacturing goods for the government establish an 8-hour day and assure that the work would be done under safe and healthful conditions. It also authorized the Secretary to set minimum wages based on locally prevailing rates.
This Act prepared the way for a much broader labor standards bill, setting minimum wages and maximum work hours for most industrial workers. (http://www.dol.gov/dol/aboutdol/history/dolhistoxford.htm)
Both the American Federation of Labor and the National Association of Manufacturers opposed it, but after a prolonged legislative battle the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) became law in 1938. Administered by the Department of Labor, the Act set a minimum wage of 25 cents per hour and a maximum workweek of 40 hours (to be phased in by 1940) for most workers in manufacturing
At no point was the minimum wage adopted with the criteria that it function as a living wage
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It is the decree of the government that all jobs smaller than a certain minimum shall be abolished.
Because every single worker in the workforce is a head of household.
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It does not matter what the criteria was in 1939. You could actually live on the minimum wage paid in 1962.
You might not live well, but it could be done and was done.
If a person can only get a minimum wags today, it is clear that he cannot support himself on such a puny amount. Whet is he supposed to do? Live in a refrigeratir box? Sleep in the park? Feed himself from dumpsters?
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It does not matter what the criteria was in 1939. You could actually live on the minimum wage paid in 1962.
You might not live well, but it could be done and was done.
If a person can only get a minimum wags today, it is clear that he cannot support himself on such a puny amount. Whet is he supposed to do? Live in a refrigeratir box? Sleep in the park? Feed himself from dumpsters?
Be a young teen living with his parents , whose real skills cannot generate fifteen dollars an hour of value ?
You must be able to make enough value to support yourself independently and decently , else you are not permitted to work as an employee.
The minimum wage doesn't provide anything for someone who hasn't got a job .
And it destroys a lot of jobs.
Worst is the national version of the minimum wage, which is plenty to live on in some states , and not half enough in some states. Leaving us like the guy with his feet frozen in an iceblock and his head in a furnace, on the average he was comfortable.
The minimum wage being national is too high some places and too low to be realistic in others, are we going to fix this by making Mississippi match Manhattan or more likely vice versa?
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It does not matter what the criteria was in 1939. You could actually live on the minimum wage paid in 1962.
You might not live well, but it could be done and was done.
If a person can only get a minimum wags today, it is clear that he cannot support himself on such a puny amount. Whet is he supposed to do? Live in a refrigeratir box? Sleep in the park? Feed himself from dumpsters?
You're making my point. Whether you could or couldn't live off a minimum wage, that was never it's function or mandate. Its not meant to keep someone from sleeping in the park. ::)
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So, you think that a country where people are so poor they can work full time and still be unable to live indoors and feed themselves is okay?
When the starve and freeze to death, then we will be rid of their sorry, unproductive souls, right?
Thank you Ebenezer Scrooge.
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So, you think that a country where people are so poor they can work full time and still be unable to live indoors and feed themselves is okay?
When the starve and freeze to death, then we will be rid of their sorry, unproductive souls, right?
Thank you Ebenezer Scrooge.
You keep missing the point and defending the cruelty.
The minimum wage does nothing to produce a single job anywhere.
(although it has moved a lot of jobs overseas)
It means that people who do not need a self sufficient wage , and cannot produce that much value , cannot have a job.
You meanie!
Teens all over the country are idle and inexperienced and playing videogames in their homes when they could be employed and learning how work works.
But the Cruel cruel CRUEL minimum wage make this impossible.
It also makes the black market of jobs work, there really are a lot of people working for less than the minimum , and keeping quiet about it.
Most people who have more than two years on the same job are getting more than minimum wage without government mandate, people with work experience are actually worth more to hire.
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The minimum wage is too low in nearly all of the country. It is not too high anywhere.
If there were no minimum wage, most present minimum wage earners would be making less.
When I was in HS, I asked this guy that ran a gas station for a job. This was when the minimum was 80 cents an hour. He told me, "That depends on who pays for you to learn the job." I already knew how to pump gas. I was seriously considering it when a friend told me that his brother had worked at the same gas station as some sort of "intern" for three months and was never paid a dime. The old fart did not even own the station, he just wanted to sit back and take it easy.
Here in Miami, what sewing jobs there are are all piecework. The operators farm out particular parts of a garment (sew on 500 pockets at 3 cents each, hem 1000 skirts at 2 cents each) to women who take the work home and have to have their own industrial sewing machines. All they give you is is the pieces and the thread. They claim that a professional seamstress can make over the minimum wage at what they pay. This is pure nonsense. Of course, the women have to pick up and deliver the work, and sometimes the shop is closed or will not accept it. Then they delay with the checks for three weeks, and sometimes the check bounces.
Most of the women doing this are illegal immigrants. The man will screw you until you drop and them will screw you again.
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If there were no minimum wage, most present minimum wage earners would be making less.
Probably not!
http://www.minimumwage.com/
Could you point to the years that the minimum wage was raised and how much this had co-relation to reductions in poverty rates?
It is kinda hard to find , perhaps there is no correlation?
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You need the date the new minimum took effect and the poverty figures for that time period.
Some people will lose a job if the minimum is raised, but most will not.
Others will take jobs that are offered because there is no longer any uncertainty about whether and how much the minimum will be raised.
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So, you think that a country where people are so poor they can work full time and still be unable to live indoors and feed themselves is okay?
When the starve and freeze to death, then we will be rid of their sorry, unproductive souls, right?
Thank you Ebenezer Scrooge.
As Plane rightly demonstrated, you keep missing the point. On top of which, we are an extremely charitable country (I won't even go into the comparison of the amounts given to charity, comparing conservatives to liberals, as that's a joke). That said, we can't save everyone, and it's not the Government's job (translation - tax payers) responsibility to save everyone either. Especially when so many make bone headed decisions that put themselves in such dire financial straights. That's literally rewarding failure
But at the least, we've got you off the erroneous mindset that the minimum wage was set to be some sort of living wage
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Wow, i go away to for alittle while and this happens. I'm for it but never once i said it's for a living wage but to help the economy . It''s simply good business for someone to at least attempt make an effort make sure his customer base can actually buy his product.
Low wages means less people being able buy higher priced items.
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It does not matter one effing whit whether the minimum wage was originally intended to allow people to support themselves. The fact is that it has been in the past and it should be NOW.
This country can and should make a serious effort to abolish poverty.
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Actually it matters to those trying to push the notion that just because the minimum wage can't be lived off of, something's seriously wrong. What's wrong is believing that you should be able to. As I said, once we can get over that falicy, we might be able to start coming together in some form of compromise....maybe
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Like we are in charge of this, get serious. I don't pass laws, I only get to vote from time to time, and my single vote has never changed one single election.
Either this country tries to ensure a productive and adequate life for its citizens, or it does not, and allows the market to do this. The market has proven to be incapable of this.
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In charge of what?? What does that have to do with anything?? The Constitution clearly states the function of the Government, which includes promote the general welfare of its citizenry, NOT provide for it. You don't like it?.....get enough like like-minds together to amend it, as it was designed to be amended. You don't get to take my hard earned tax dollars to make you feel better
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If your tax dollars are so hard earned, you need to understand investments better.
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Irrelevent to the point being made, regarding the minimum wage & the Constitutional parameters of the Federal Government. Deflection effort however, duly noted
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Just saying. In this country most people will never get rich because you can't get rich by just by working at some job. You have to save and learn something about investing and invest. This is obvious to anyone who seriously studies how the economy in the US works. It does no good to buy everything new and on credit and then bitch and moan about how the government is taking all your money. Of course, that is not true, but people believe a lot os crap that is untrue because they are poor at arithmetic.
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Say all you want.....but getting back to the point, fact remains the minimum wage was never designed to be a living wage, and the Federal Government was never mandated to keep everyone from sleeping in a park
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did I forget to mention my support had nothing to do with those two points . it`s mainly about stimulating spending to support businesses.
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Don't get me wrong Kimba, you're not one of those I'm referring to who belives that the minimum wage was designed to be a living wage. While I disagree with much of your premise, your position actually provides a platform for plausible compromise, so no, you didn't forget to mention it
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did I forget to mention my support had nothing to do with those two points . it`s mainly about stimulating spending to support businesses.
I think I get your point , but those having no wage at all due to the minimum wage law are a drag at about the same rate as any gain from the minimum wage law might cause , plus the inflation effect.
Raising the Minimum wage about 10% once each decade seems to be a low enough damage to be tolerable , but a low enough benefit also to be hardly worth the effort.
I think that XO is saying that all these effects are true , but that the margins are on the positive.
Eh......
I can't provide the measurement for the margins , so he may be right, but if it is a benefit so small that the benefit is hard to find and evaporates over time , we return to diminishing returns, not worth the trouble.
In my opinion 100% employment would be a major benefit even if as many as 5% of us were working at something less than the present minimum wage.
When employment is very high employers are competing for workers and competing for competence. Which is the best condition for the common man.
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but those unemployed will hardly effect the spending habits of those employed also . 100% ideal but i recall times with relative low unemployment here and businesses didn`t really compete if anything people wanted more unemployment. nothing stops and employer from raising wages but it seems to happen anyway
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If they permitted people to be paid LESS then the minimum, there would be more than 5% that would fit into that category. The minimum wage should be raised an amount based on the cost of living.
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What percent are paid the minimum wage now?
If there were no minimum why would there ba a higher percentage paid that much?
Supposing there were about half of the unemployed given jobs that paid less, that would be something like 3% , and it would all be new money , money that no one is making now.
Money that no one is making now , no one is spending now.
There is a fraction of us that can be called "working poor" this would not change , but having no minimum wage would only make this fraction grow by taking from the fraction of us that is unemployed.
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I really doubt that it would result in more money in the economy. People with crappy, ill paid jobs tend to not stay in them. As they left their minimum wage jobs, many would end up with sub minimum wage jobs. The total cash in circulation would be unaffected.
No one is going to abolish the minimum wage, This is a stupid argument. We might as well discuss how the Air Force would change if they managed to get airmen to grow functional wings.
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We have never had any success recruiting angels into the Air Force.
But we lived without a minimum wage for a long time , even now some quite advanced nations do not bother with them.
It has been my experience that it is easier to get a new job , when you already have a job. Once I had three jobs in a month , each one a raise.
Isn't the point of leaving a crappy job , landing a better one?
Busy businesses , that are competing with each other for labor are a good situation for workers, when it is like that nobody needs to worry about minimum wage.
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Busy businesses , that are competing with each other for labor are a good situation for workers, when it is like that nobody needs to worry about minimum wage.
BINGO!! Arbitrarily hiking wages doesn't defacto spur purchasing power, since more businesses hire less, contributing to higher unemployment, and less people abble to purchase things. The key has always been to increase employment. THAT's what will seriously stimulate spending. Hiking minimum wages is like throwing a wet blanket over any ptential increase in employment #'s
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There is no evidence that this is the case. The minimum wage has been raised many, many times. Always the same lame arguments, always the absence of proof.
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And the predicted unemployment and inflation have not occurred?
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No, I do not think that anyone has demonstrated that.
A few people lose their jobs, of course, but a few find the higher wages to be an incentive to get a job or to seek another job.
Inflation does not seem to be affected. There is certainly no direct link.
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You have not read much of the experience Israel had with indexing savings and earnings to inflation.
Oh yes , it has been demonstrated. Inflation can be had if you want some.
If we did not have pretty severe resistance which prevents frequent raises in the minimum wage , we too could have 400% inflation.
Money is like sands in your hand, if you are holding a double handful of sand I can hand you any amount more sand but you will not be holding any more, unless you can grow your hands bigger.
People get paid what they are worth, it is automatic. If you pay them too little they are seeking another job , if you pay more than a few of them more than they are worth, the money you are paying them with shrinks in value.
The minimum wage causes churn and unemployment and is inflationary , the only controversy is the uncertainty of whether it is ever any good.
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Bingo!!
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Australia has a minimum wage of $16 per hour.
Australia has little inflation.
Israel is a very puny nation and depends heavily on money tit begs from the US, Canada, the UK and Jews everywhere. It has the least typical economy of any country you might mention.
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Australia has a minimum wage of $16 per hour.
A good point.
1 Australian Dollar equals
0.90 US Dollar
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=australian+dollar+to+us
So their equivalent minimum wage today is 16 x 90% =$ 14.40
Not too bad yet , but they do have greater inflation than we do , so check in a month or two to see how this holds up.
Looks as though there is a lot of push for the Aussies to make their Dollar even cheaper for American Dollars to buy. This is an advantage to exporters , but is practically a pay cut for Australian citizens who would like to buy some American stuff.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/in-the-black/charmed-run-of-aussie-dollar-likely-to-end/story-fni0d787-1227058214395?nk=fe08fde2f4722d7dbab7744fb507d9e7
So one way to view a national minimum wage is as a part of a race to the bottom.
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Australians do not buy much American stuff.
One can support oneself on the Australian minimum wage.
Australia has zero Republican'ts.
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Australians buy American aircraft .
The main thing I care about.
There are Australian aircraft makers , but none are making large aircraft nor modern military aircraft.
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Airplanes, especially large ones are not a major import of Australia, even if you care about them. The average Australian making $16 a year does not purchase aircraft, certainly not military or commercial aircraft.
Australians believe in fair dinkum for everyone as a national goal. Equality is valued in Australia. Everyone should get paid enough to live a decent life, and there are far less poor people as a percentage of the Aussie population than there are in the US.
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How many Quantas employees make minimum wage?
http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/home/us/en/?rgn_cam=us:qf:sem:Qantas+Only+%7C+Misspellings+E-_GOOGLE_quantas
And their real choice is Airbus.
Airbus A330 -26
Airbus A380 -12
Boeing 717 -18
Boeing 737 -70
Boeing 747 -13
Boeing 767 -9
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas#Current
That is actually a respectable number of aircraft.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2129.html
Unemployment - Australia 5.7% (2013 est.)
5.2% (2012 est.)
Hmmm... not bad.
By 2012, Australia had experienced more than 20 years of continued economic growth, averaging 3.5% a year.
Hmmmmm.....
GDP - per capita (PPP):
$43,000 (2013 est.)
country comparison to the world: 21
$42,500 (2012 est.)
$41,700 (2011 est.)
note: data are in 2013 US dollars
Hey!
Population below poverty line:
NA%
What? poverty Not Applicable?
This requires further exploration.
But clearly the CIA agrees with XO , whoda thunkit?
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lol
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Australia is a desert country with all sorts of minerals, many of the conveniently located in areas where not one would ever choose to live, like alkali deserts where rainfall is minuscule and no one has to worry about wrecking the environment. Australia is conveniently located relatively close to China, which is on the biggest building boom and industrialization in history.
The worst social problem seems to be alcoholism, especially among the Aborigines.
Australia is not noted for corruption.
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Do you mean that the favorable circumstances Australia is experiencing now make it a poor demonstration for the disadvantages and benefits of a high minimum wage?
I could suppose that if only a few people were being paid at the lower levels , neither the benefits nor the disadvantages of a minimum wage will make a lot of difference.
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The Australian governnment, unlike the American government, simply assures that every Aussie citizen benefits from the mineral riches of the nation and no one has to suffer the sort of poverty many Americans have to face every day.
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So it is like the Alaskan government?
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You would have to study both, but I would say, no is is not.
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In the respect that the tax input of mines and oil drilling is distributed across the citizens?
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Australia does not send out checks to citizens like the Alaskan government does, so no.
Alaska simply requires EVERY employer to pay a living wage, regardless of whatever business he is in.
That is not the same thing.
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Alaska?
don`t give a petrol stipend for just being Alaskan? I know a guy who gets a monthly check so his temp jobs is more than enough for him. I hear certain tribes gets 47k a month from casinos in sacramento and that's the low end pay.
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Alaska pays out money from oil sales to each Alaskan adult based on the number of years they have lived there. The longer you have lived there, the more you get. Alaska has no state income tax.
Anyone that is actually interested in the minimum wage in the fast food industry would know a lot more about it is they read this article in the New Yorker.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/09/15/dignity-4 (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/09/15/dignity-4)
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Alaska pays out money from oil sales to each Alaskan adult based on the number of years they have lived there. The longer you have lived there, the more you get. Alaska has no state income tax.
Anyone that is actually interested in the minimum wage in the fast food industry would know a lot more about it is they read this article in the New Yorker.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/09/15/dignity-4 (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/09/15/dignity-4)
This article is pretty good about unions.
Not about why a federal minimum wage would or wouldn't be a good idea.
If a worker is getting paid less than the actual worth of their work , a union is a good way to address the problem.
What makes an hour work worth fifteen dollars?
Without addressing this there cannot be any understanding of the rest.
Early in this very long article they undermine the case they try to make in the rest of it.
she left her job at a big university hospital where she had worked for twelve years and moved, alone, to New York. She rented a shared room in Inwood, a working-class neighborhood in upper Manhattan, for fifty dollars a week, got a job at a McDonald’s in Inwood, and then a second job, at the 181st Street McDonald’s. She made minimum wage. Still, she was able to send most of her paychecks home.
So the wage as it is can draw workers from thousand of miles away.
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"Given the choice, would you rather see Congress:
1) raise the minimum wage,
2) cut the payroll tax for all working Americans,
or
3) increase tax credits for some low-income Americans."
The results found a strong preference for cutting the payroll tax. "The majority of those polled; 50% believe that cutting the payroll tax for all working Americans would be a good start, 39% indicated that raising the minimum wage would be their choice, while only 9% believe increased entitlement spending by increasing tax credits for some low-income Americans would be smart. 2% were unsure," Gravis reported.
It is not hard to see why Americans would prefer a payroll tax cut to a minimum wage hike. A payroll tax cut, paid for by eliminating loopholes for the wealthy, would both increase take home pay for all working Americans and create new jobs by lowering the cost of employment.
Raising the minimum wage, however, would benefit only 4.3 percent of American workers, and, according to both the Congressional Budget Office and President Obama's choice to un the Federal Reserve, would kill hundreds of thousands of jobs.
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If you were a Congressman would you prefer having more money in circulation , or more money in tax receipt?
If a large measure causes large scale inflation , the national debt is practically reduced and everyone near the upper margin of a tax bracket moves over the line and owes a lot more taxes.
It is a ill wind indeed that blows no one good.
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We hear about how the government is spending far too much, but there is relatively little inflation.
People need to have the ability to have a job that will allow them to support themselves.
No one is going to abolish the minimum wage, not ever.
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Actually thiers truely no need to remove it at all since the present level has never once been said to be too high.
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Nor has anyone, at anytime, ever advocated the abolishment of the minimum wage
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On the contrary, all I have heard is how people who are not worth the minimum wage have to be unemployed as a result of employers cruelly having to shell out over SEVEN DOLLARS an hour to hire them.
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On the contrary...NO ONE IS ADVOCATING THE ABOLISHMENT OF THE MINIMUM WAGE. That's again arguing a point never made.
What is being advocated is that raising it more, while sounding all warm & fuzzy, is factually a detriment to the overall employment numbers, while decreasing both the work force and work hours in order for large businesses to still stay afloat financially, and small busnesses to stay afloat at all. Especially when you consider it only helps a little over 4% of the work force
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actually I thought this post was caused by plane on another post saying getting rid of minimum wage and taxes to increase employment and I responded by saying minimum wage greatly helped our economy.
oh well
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If Plane advocated the complete abolishment of the minimum wage, then I am indeed in error. My bad
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I believe that Plane did, in fact, suggest that there be no minimum wage, and that employers pay whatever the market will permit.
This is the usual Libertarian position.
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I'll let him speak for himself.
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If you pay attention to what he has already written, you will find that he has already stated his position.
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Since I haven't seen him opine that position, I shall endeavor to wait until he indicates that. Your say so doesn't hold enough water to simply take any claims at face value
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I think of the minimum wage as an illusion of something helpful.
Countries without it do not miss it.
There is a serious cruelty in telling so many that they may not work.
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Nor has anyone, at anytime, ever advocated the abolishment of the minimum wage
I have !
Recently even.
Perhaps you mean no one important?
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On the contrary, all I have heard is how people who are not worth the minimum wage have to be unemployed as a result of employers cruelly having to shell out over SEVEN DOLLARS an hour to hire them.
If you had an opportunity to hire someone , what would be your share of his productivity?
Be fair to yourself , and your employee.
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I have no idea, it would depend on the job needed, wouldn't it?
I have never had any employees. I had a seriousl need for a secretary when I was teaching seven courses per semester, but I did npot have one,and just worked extra hours. In teachoing, you do not get time and a half for overtime, you get about a third as much for a course overload.
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On the contrary, all I have heard is how people who are not worth the minimum wage have to be unemployed as a result of employers cruelly having to shell out over SEVEN DOLLARS an hour to hire them.
If you had an opportunity to hire someone , what would be your share of his productivity?
Be fair to yourself , and your employee.
I have no idea, it would depend on the job needed, wouldn't it?
I have never had any employees. I had a seriousl need for a secretary when I was teaching seven courses per semester, but I did npot have one,and just worked extra hours. In teachoing, you do not get time and a half for overtime, you get about a third as much for a course overload.
This is what we have been talking about the whole time.
What the work is worth makes much more difference than how much the money is needed.
Jobs that stop making profit stop existing.
There is a real value to work, how is the real value determined?
If the people signing the paycheck cannot determine this , they can't manage their business.
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Nor has anyone, at anytime, ever advocated the abolishment of the minimum wage
I have !
Recently even.
Perhaps you mean no one important?
You are indeed important. I was in error. Thank you for the clarity
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McDonald's in Denmark pays over $20 an hour to its employees, who are unionized.
A Big Mac burger there costs just 45 cents more than in the US.
Profits margins are quite often unbelievable.
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sirs does not pay attention to Plane's posts, apparently.
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I was talking about the larger picture here. I stated the primary factor that motivated me to support the wage increase is the fact minimum wage has been behind the increase of cost of everything else. and this fact has coincide with the spending decline this country has experienced . I`m not saying only minimum wage workers are spending in America but that wages at the bottom end does has influence on wages on up .
the lower the pay the lower the responsibility. we mention unpaid interns and the interesting fact is companies who get free workers tend to not hire them due to the built-in lack of respect for people who are willing to work for low or no pay. cu did once mention he would be hesitant to hire an macdonalds employee. that natural pause is enough to delay the hiring of a lot of people who don`t know how to tweek their resume. a higher wage will highly likely change the responsibility of said worker and such status will follow later on. now to my primary goal is increase spending. higher wages means people who can rent ,that statement alone will have a significant impact on our economy. our presence wage doesn`t do that very well. yes we may have less employed but those that made it will have a significant effect. higher numbers of low paid populous will not do this simply because they don`t buy anything.
ooops forgot to say cu did not say he won`t hire just have pause.
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sirs does not pay attention to Plane's posts, apparently.
Do you realize how many posts, we all provide. Do you read EVERYTHING I post? That Cu4 posts?? We're not going to catch EVERYTHING said, which is why when someone says something, that someone else missed, one simply asks for a little clarity. It doesn't equate to not paying attention. It equates to having missed it the 1st time mentioned. oy ::)
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There can't be a requirement to read everything.
If Sirs skips mine now and then it is likely because we seldom disagree very much.
Why read over what you already understand thoroughly?
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There can't be a requirement to read everything.
Apparently there is....otherwise you're not paying attention, according to the Professor's whacked out parameters ::)
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McDonald's in Denmark pays over $20 an hour to its employees, who are unionized.
A Big Mac burger there costs just 45 cents more than in the US.
Last I checked, BM's in Demmark were greater than 45cents more, compared to the U.S. (avg cost of a BM in the U.S. approx $4.60. avg cost of a BM in Demnark, approx $5.20, in U.S. dollars). Did you also factor in cost of living, inflation rates, poverty levels, and overall sales of BM's per a % of the population, for each country?? Not so quite black & white without doing your homework.
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If the Danes are paid $20 an hour and the damn burger is only 45 cents more, we much assume that the company is making a profit. So it is possible to pay $20 an hour here and raise the price the same 45 cents, or probably less, because taxes are higher in Denmark. The rest of the crap you mentioned is irrelevant.
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No, we can't assume anything, since you're comparing apples to oranges. What is the Denmark poverty line compared to ours? What is their level of inflation compared to ours? How many damn BM's do they sell, as a % of their population to ours? Then you can start making direct comparisons between our selling BM's and the cost involved to McD's, vs those in Denmark.
Do your homework, Professor, before you come to class with an incomplete report
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uhm, didn`t someone use such comparision to oppose ? australia
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Not I.
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I have ZERO obligation to follow your orders.
I do not have to prove to you that $20 is more than $7.00. I do not have to prove to you that unionized Danes are better off than poor Americans who you yourself claim should never expect to get paid a living wage.
You are not in charge, sirs. You do not give me orders, you simple schmuck.
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DEFLECTION ALERT.......I gave you no orders to follow Professor deflection. Merely demonstrated where your shortcoming was, in your latest claim. Your decision if you want to shore it up or not. The consistency of you not has always been admired
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hmm
I tried
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Anyone that admires you, sirs, is a total moron.
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Your 99% record of erroneous claims/opinions is duly noted
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Your incompetent opinion is duly ignored with well-deserved disdain.
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Lol....priceless. 8)
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Again with the "priceless" bit... You sure seem to lack creativity.
...speaks volumes...
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If only you spent half this amount of time and energy on being respectful & serious, as you do being a boil, what a fine grander place the saloon would be
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yeah, it's all my fault, isn't it?
I cannot bring myself to respect your silly obsessions or take them seriously, alas.
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Sorry, you can't use me for your excuse to act out in such an immature manner. You choose to act the way you do. Here's a hint....I have many a friend who are hard core liberal like yourself, yet we get along just fine. Because we choose to respect each other and actively be civil. It's kind of along those lines of freedom. ... freedom to act however you wish. If you want to act like a petty ignorant schmuck, that's all you. However, if you want to act like a serious professor, with serious points of view to present, that would be a welcomed addition to the saloon
Your choice
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....I have many a friend who are hard core liberal like yourself, yet we get along just fine. Because we choose to respect each other and actively be civil....
Could you find out if any of them like to argue and blog?
XO is carrying more of a load here than is reasonable to expect, having a bit of backup might be useful to him.
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Believe me, I have. No bites yet