DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Xavier_Onassis on November 23, 2011, 01:54:08 PM
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Gingrich has a reputation for being a hateful wisea$$. He is supposed to be some sort of genius for coming up with ideas.
The current "idea" about student janitors no doubt came from an excerpt from Booker T. Washington's autobiography about his first days at Hampton Institute, where he arrived with no money and was given the task of cleaning the classrooms. He claimed that the insistence of perfection by Mrs. Ruffner. the person who gave him the job was an inspiration for him to strive for perfection.
He combined this with the traditional hatred of Republicans for unions, and voila, another splendid Newtster "idea".
Booker T.'s essay is in dozens of Black Studies texts, as well as many other books intended for schoolchildren.
Here is what I found online by googling Booket T Washington essay character building:
"He took a job in the home of Mrs. Ruffner, an exacting, stern disciplinarian who demanded cleanliness and precise truth all the time. Previous boys had lasted only about a week under Mrs. Ruffner, but Booker was to devote himself for several years to perfecting his work, allowing no leisure for mischief.7 This practice was continued at Hampton Institute where he was accepted after enduring several tests of his industriousness culminating in the use of a broom in a "sweeping examination." His training served him well, and he became an assistant janitor for several years while a student at Hampton."
The Newtster is a bit of a plagiarist, perhaps
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Did he claim it to be an original idea? or did he recognize that it would be a good way for students to have a means of earning income and instilling pride in a job well done.
Part of the problem with the image of public school education is that the focus is on providing jobs for adults rather than providing an educated youth.
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Did he claim it to be an original idea?
Good question. Xo, did he? Or is it because he's now the front runner, the left needs to start throwing crap against the wall, made up if necessary, to see what sticks?
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It is a very well-known story among Black people, so I think that he could have admitted that it originated with Booker T. Washington. Perhaps he read it long ago, who knows. But the story that he tells is too similar to be a coincidence. Plagiarists do not admit they have copied a story, ever. In a scholarly paper, recognition should be given by the author to the person with the original story. That is what footnotes are for.
He does not have to say "This is my original idea" to be a plagiarist.
The reality is that school janitors do a lot more than sweep the floors. They replace fluorescent tubes, they work with some pretty toxic cleaning chemicals, including Sulfuric acid for unclogging drains, they change filters in the AC, the cut the grass and do all sorts of handyman types of jobs. Many of these jobs ate too unsafe for children to do. If some kid falls off a ladder and becomes paralyzed for life, or is poisoned by dangerous chemicals, the school district is likely going to be sued for a lot larger amount than they would save by replacing the janitors with children.
Booker T. did not have to replace fluorescent tubes, he did not have to unclog a toilet with acid or lye, he did not have to use industrial strength degreasers or insecticide.
I see nothing wrong with having some schoolchildren sweep school floors and do simple cleaning jobs around the school. But no, you cannot replace all, or even most, school janitors with children.
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He does not have to say "This is my original idea" to be a plagiarist.
Sure he does, if the claim is being made that he's "swiping ideas from the deceased". If its a good idea, what's the problem??
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I'm going to have to agree with Sirs on this. He has to claim the idea as his one to becharged with plagiarism.
Otherwise it's just nitpicking.
Nowhere close to the plagiarism of Obama basing his whole campaign of Hope and Change cribbed from Deval Patrick's run for Governor or Bidens cribbing a whole speech from a British memeber of Parliament and calling it his one.
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Speaking as a professor who has assigned and graded many term papers, if portion of some previous work is copied into a student's paper without attribution, it is plagiarism. All statements in a scholarly paper that are not attributed directly or indirectly to someone else are assumed to be original.
It is simply amazing how often professors I know would tell me that they suspected a paper of being plagiarized back in the beginning days of the Internet, and I would type three sentences into a search engine and the entire paper would pop up, verbatim.
What you are saying is nonsense, like saying that unless stolen property does not have the words "I stole this" written on it, it is not stolen.
Gingrich SHOULD say that this idea came from Booker T's work, which is obviously he did. Gingrich is an academic with a PhD. He knows what plagiarism is, just as I do.
What Gingrich said is not illegal, it is simply intellectually dishonest.
It does not matter whether others have done the same thing before this. That does not make it not plagiarism.
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Newt expressed his thoughts on school children doing maintenance tasks at school during a debate. No footnotes needed. No bibliography attached.
This nitpicking is as bad as claiming that Cain stole his 9-9-9 plan from a video game. No proof just the assertion that Cain is just some dumb Uncle Tom who steals ideas from video games.
Every time i bite into a peanut butter and jelly sandwich am i required to say Booker T invented this?
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What you are saying is nonsense, like saying that unless stolen property does not have the words "I stole this" written on it, it is not stolen.
Gingrich SHOULD say that this idea came from Booker T's work, which is obviously he did. Gingrich is an academic with a PhD. He knows what plagiarism is, just as I do.
What Gingrich said is not illegal, it is simply intellectually dishonest.
You have yet to answer the all important "why"?? Minus some factoid of Newt claiming this was his idea, you're doing nothing more than trying to throw crap at Newt, and hope it sticks. Why would he need to claim it came from Booker?? Why can't it simply be a good idea??
Many a conservative repeats ideas that eminated with Reagan. I don't see anyone claiming that he got his ideas from Reagan, or that Biden got his speech from British Parliment, or Obama claiming he got his Hope & Change idea from Patrick. If were to apply your Professorial parameters, messers Obama & Biden are just as "intellectually dishonest". Is that your position as well??
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My position is that Booker T.'s original story in his autobiography was inspirational. Read it, Up From Slavery is online.
Newt's version of it had to include union busting as well, and is probably impractical, for reasons I have stated. If any action results from this idea, I will be quite surprised. I am not opposed to paying teenagers for pushing a broom or doing other cleaning jobs in schools.I am opposed to replacing all janitors with said teenagers. I do not consider most child labor laws to be silly.
The Newtster is simply not the great thinker he claims to be, though he surely is better at thinking than any of the other GOP types that oppose him. I am not a propagandist, I have no reason to believe that I could say anything that would result in anyone voting differently in the GOP primaries. If Gingrich gets the nomination, I expect there will be one or more third party candidates, notably Ron Paul, who is not running for Congress again in 2012, from what I hear. This could result in a victory for the President.
I do not consider the Newtster to be intellectually honest, period.
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So, to apply your Professorial parameters, messers Obama & Biden are just as "intellectually dishonest" as well, period. Good, glad we got that cleared up
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Your position in regards to Newt's statement concerning a work study program for high schoolers being blatant plagiarism, is unreasonable. But at least you didn't go off on some Dickensian fantasy about abusing child labor laws, so you get credit for that.
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Not good, I do not agree to anything you say, get lost, creep.
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And there's the SOP we knew wouldn't take long to surface. Yea, that double standard of yours is pretty hard to swallow, isn't it. Keep throwing crap, and see if anything sticks.
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Wait wait wait....?
Newt Gingritch is reading Booker T. Washington?
He should, who shouldn't?
BTW is a grand example of American person, good to be emulated.
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I think Newt reading Booker T. is a good thing. I'd say it is obvious he got this idea precisely from BTW's autobiography. Why he does not admit it, I do not know. Perhaps he feels he might lose a few Kluxxer votes.
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I think Newt reading Booker T. is a good thing. I'd say it is obvious he got this idea precisely from BTW's autobiography. Why he does not admit it, I do not know. Perhaps he feels he might lose a few Kluxxer votes.
Has he been challenged as to the genesis of the statement? Is he aware of your feelings concerning this?
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Is BTW the true origionator of the idea?
Are working students unheard of before him?
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Is BTW the true origionator of the idea?
Are working students unheard of before him?
Are you accusing Booker T of plagiarism?
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Not as I would define plagiarism.
I wear pants , I have never told anyone that I invented them , or didn't.
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So who invented pants?
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I heard it was Caucasians who were horsemen.
Lets see what Googles.
Prehistory
There is some evidence, from figurative art, of trousers being worn in the Upper Paleolithic. An example are the figurines found at the Siberian sites of Mal'ta and Buret'.
Antiquity
Scythian archer. Interior from an Ancient Greek Attic red-figure plate, ca. 520–500 BC, from Vulci. British Museum, London.
Germanic trousers of the 4th century found in the Thorsberg moor, GermanyTrousers first enter recorded history in the 6th century BCE, with the appearance of horse-riding Iranian peoples in Greek ethnography. At this time, not only the Persians, but also allied Central Asian peoples such as the Bactrians, Armenians, and the Tigraxauda Scythians are known to have worn them.Trousers are believed to have been worn by both sexes among these early users.
The ancient Greeks used the term "??????????" (anaxyrides) for the trousers worn by eastern nations and "????????" (sarabara) for the loose trousers worn by the Scythians. However, they did not wear trousers since they thought them ridiculous, using the word "???????" (thulakes), pl. of "???????" (thulakos), "sack", as a slang term for the loose trousers of Persians and other orientals.
Republican Rome viewed the draped clothing of Egypt, Babylon, Greece, and Minoan (Crete) culture as an emblem of civilization and disdained trousers as the mark of barbarians.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trousers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trousers)
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Booker T Washington was simply telling of an inspirational event in his life: to strive for perfection.
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and.................?