Author Topic: Solicitor General Elena Kagan  (Read 11735 times)

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sirs

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Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #105 on: May 14, 2010, 04:03:57 PM »
You may not realize this, but you actually reinforce my (& Pruden's points) about Government delving further into the area of exercising law on the 1st amendment, based on lawyer-like vagueness surrounding hurtful & hateful, to which the Constitution clearly says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech

Meaning it CAN be hurtful, it CAN be hateful.  It can even be a bald faced lie, if its political speech.  Kagan believes that can and should be "redistributed" (aka regulated).  The Constitution says otherwise.
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #106 on: May 14, 2010, 04:24:40 PM »
Quote
Meaning it CAN be hurtful, it CAN be hateful.  It can even be a bald faced lie, if its political speech.  Kagan believes that can and should be "redistributed" (aka regulated).  The Constitution says otherwise.

Show me where she says that, in context.


sirs

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Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #107 on: May 14, 2010, 06:28:53 PM »
"The answer to this question involves viewing the Buckley principle [that government cannot balance between competing speakers] as an evidentiary tool designed to aid in the search for improper motive," Kagan wrote. "The Buckley principle emerges not from the view that redistribution of speech opportunities is itself an illegitimate end, but from the view that governmental actions justified as redistributive devices often (though not always) stem partly from hostility or sympathy toward ideas or, even more commonly, from self-interest."...that the Supreme Court should focus on whether a speaker's message is harming the public.

And who gets to define "harm", and to what extent that speech is being "harmful
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 06:32:48 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #108 on: May 14, 2010, 06:36:03 PM »
OK

and does she advise Scotus to examine government motive when restricting free speech?

sirs

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Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #109 on: May 14, 2010, 07:02:39 PM »
She DOES advise that Scotus examine the "motives" of the speaker
&
She DOES use alot of lawyer legal speak, to do an end around the clear wording of the 1st amendment. 

Not sure why you're trying to defend her, Bt.  Perhaps you've made a comittment to your position, and must not stray.  And yes, perhaps I'm doing the same.  But I'm reading HER words.  I'm reading HER use of harmful, hateful, "redistribution of speech", for crying out loud.  The 1st amendment doesn't allow for that.

Or so the founders were hopeful.  But hell, as the constitution continues to "evolve" perhaps there is no real right to bear arms, if such arms are deemed harmful.  Maybe searches of private residences are going to be routine in a time of high anxiety, I mean, groups may be organizing hateful events, and we'll need to make sure no one can be harmed from such groups.

Yea, I'm being extreme, but that's easy to do, when you can write up legalize to ram rod loopholes into Bill of Rights big enough to drive a hummer thru.

Her words vs the Founders'.  Dare I say, it's a no brainer
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #110 on: May 14, 2010, 07:17:33 PM »
Quote
That sounds a little redundant, Bt.  Hard to scrutinize what's non-existant, such as a judicial record.  it would have to be other areas of her "resume'"

Sure her writings and teachings are fair targets.

Think we'll get a gander at this?

Will the Senate see Kagan's long paper trail?
By: Byron York 
 
"We're talking about tens of thousands of pages," says Susan Cooper, spokeswoman for the National Archives and Records Administration. "It's a massive job."

Cooper is discussing the work of processing papers from Supreme Court nominee Elena Kagan's two years, 1995 and 1996, in the Clinton White House Counsel's Office. During that time, Kagan, like any overworked staff lawyer, handled a wide variety of issues and wrote or contributed to thousands of memos, e-mails and other documents. Those papers, boxes and boxes of them, are at the Clinton Presidential Library in Little Rock, under the supervision of the archives.

You've probably heard a lot of talk about Kagan not having a paper trail. It's not true. In fact, she has a long paper trail. The only question is whether the senators who vote on her confirmation will be allowed to see it.

There have already been some stories -- articles like "Memos Reveal Elena Kagan's Centrist Side" -- based on documents from Kagan's White House service, but those are from her time, 1997 to 1999, on the White House Domestic Policy Council. Cooper says those papers have already been processed by government archivists and many, although not necessarily all, of them have been posted on the Internet.

But what Cooper calls the "bulk of the [Kagan-related] records that we have" come from Kagan's time in the counsel's office. They have not yet been processed and are not yet open. And, of course, they are likely to cover issues that would be useful to senators seeking to learn more about Kagan's legal thinking.

So the question is: Will senators get to see them? If history is any guide, the answer is yes.

In 2005, when John Roberts was nominated for the Supreme Court, minority Democrats wanted to see papers Roberts had written while serving in the Reagan White House Counsel's Office in the mid-1980s. President George W. Bush complied, and the Senate Judiciary Committee was given more than 50,000 pages of material detailing Roberts' positions on issues like civil rights, the separation of powers, school prayer and other topics.

Although Bush declined to produce everything Roberts wrote while at the Justice Department in another job, the White House papers gave the Senate unique insights into Roberts' legal thinking. The public learned a lot, too, since the papers were also the source for hundreds of press accounts describing Roberts' writing style and personality.

Now, we have another Supreme Court nominee who spent time in the counsel's office.

"There is now a precedent that a White House lawyer's materials will be produced," says Bradford Berenson, an associate counsel in the Bush White House. "I think it will be very difficult for the Obama administration, given everything they've said about transparency and openness, to withhold these documents."

That applies even to cases in which the Clinton White House claimed executive privilege. For example, in 1996, Kagan was involved in a controversy in which the Clinton administration was accused of siding with a group of radical environmentalists locked in a standoff with federal agents in Oregon. Officials at the U.S. Forest Service suspected that a staffer at the White House Council on Environmental Quality tipped off the protesters about a coming federal crackdown.

The situation drew the attention of Republicans on the House Committee on Natural Resources, who found that Kagan, in the White House Counsel's Office, did little, if anything, to find or punish the leaker, even though that person had revealed confidential information that potentially endangered the lives of Forest Service agents. GOP investigators asked for Kagan's notes on the matter at the time, but the White House refused, claiming executive privilege.

It's possible Senate Republicans will want to see those documents today. Given the Roberts precedent, there seems no reason for the papers to remain secret.

It's not yet clear whether there will be a battle over White House papers. Republican Senate Judiciary Committee sources say it's too early to know what documents GOP senators will want to see, and it's also too early to know how the White House will respond to Senate demands.

But remember: Elena Kagan has a very long paper trail. The Senate will need to see a lot of it before she is elevated to the nation's highest court.



"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #111 on: May 14, 2010, 08:19:23 PM »
Quote
She DOES use alot of lawyer legal speak, to do an end around the clear wording of the 1st amendment. 

Not a whole lot of legal speak in saying that because a an administration or party does not like the type of speech, that is not a good enough reason to pass legislation against it, and if that legislation is passed then scotus if called upon should consider the motivation of the majority party in writing the restrictive law.

Which is just the opposite of Pruden saying that she would be an ally of Obama-ites who would want to restrict the tea party folks.




sirs

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Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #112 on: May 14, 2010, 10:28:36 PM »
Are you actually reading her words?  or are you simply rearranging them in your head to come out with what you propose she's trying to say?  Because her words, as vague & verbose as she tries to make them, makes it clear that she believes that with an evolving Constitution, Government & SCOTUS have a role in determining "motive" and level of "harm" in someone's clear right to free speech.
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #113 on: May 14, 2010, 11:10:30 PM »
Quote
Because her words, as vague & verbose as she tries to make them, makes it clear that she believes that with an evolving Constitution, Government & SCOTUS have a role in determining "motive" and level of "harm" in someone's clear right to free speech.

What she brings to the table is investigating the motive of the government in legislating or restricting st forms of speech. Whether the speech in question causes harm is already settled law and restricting harmful speech has been ruled constitutional back in 1969.

Quote
In her article, Kagan said that examination of the motives of government is the proper approach for the Supreme Court when looking at whether a law violates the First Amendment. While not denying that other concerns, such as the impact of a law, can be taken into account, Kagan argued that governmental motive is ?the most important? factor.
 
In doing so, Kagan constructed a complex framework that can be used by the Court to determine whether or not Congress has restricted First Amendment freedoms with improper intent.
 
She defined improper intent as prohibiting or restricting speech merely because Congress or a public majority dislikes either the message or the messenger, or because the message or messenger may be harmful to elected officials or their political priorities.

http://debategate.com/new3dhs/index.php?topic=9624.msg100852#msg100852


So to answer your questions, i am reading her words, i do not see them as overly couched in legal terms nor do i see them as verbose, in fact the article you posted makes it crystal clear what she meant. And i happen to agree that government motivation is always a concern for any legislation they pass.




sirs

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Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #114 on: May 15, 2010, 01:12:22 AM »
Quote
Because her words, as vague & verbose as she tries to make them, makes it clear that she believes that with an evolving Constitution, Government & SCOTUS have a role in determining "motive" and level of "harm" in someone's clear right to free speech.

What she brings to the table is investigating the motive of the government in legislating or restricting st forms of speech. Whether the speech in question causes harm is already settled law and restricting harmful speech has been ruled constitutional back in 1969.

What she "brings to the table" is the advocation that Government & SCOTUS need to examime motives of the speaker, further determing some level of "harm" that may come about from someone exercisting their 1st amendment right to free speech.  Not sure why we're going in circles here.  Her words are there for all to see.  You want to chose that Government needs to take a greater role in deciphering intent?, have at it.  Not my cup of tea to support any further intervention by the government in the name curtailing harm or hate.  Especially given the clear limitations the constitution is supposed to be provide upon Government

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: Holder tangent
« Reply #115 on: May 15, 2010, 01:51:05 AM »
Kagan's Just the Latest Radical Obama Lawyer
Here are some of the lawyers that Mr. Obama has appointed:

Eric Holder, Attorney General. Mr. Holder wants to bring terrorists to trial in civilian courts, has called America a "nation of cowards" for not being obsessed with race, and allowed the Justice Department to drop counts against New Black Panther Party members charged with voter intimidation in Philadelphia in 2008.

Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr., who has been critical of Arizona's new immigration law, said Thursday he hasn't yet read the law and is going by what he's read in newspapers or seen on television.

"I've just expressed concerns on the basis of what I've heard about the law. But I'm not in a position to say at this point, not having read the law, not having had the chance to interact with people are doing the review, exactly what my position is," Mr. Holder told the House Judiciary Committee.

When it rains, it pours
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #116 on: May 15, 2010, 02:08:23 AM »
        Is it clear what sort of thing is "harm" that the Government may restrict free speech rights to prevent?

          And how much of this "harm " is enough to justify restriction on free speech?


          Or what example of government motive would be found proper by the court when examining a restriction for constituionality?

sirs

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Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #117 on: May 15, 2010, 02:16:12 AM »
Hmmmm....inquiring minds would love to know
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #118 on: May 15, 2010, 09:56:13 AM »
Quote
What she "brings to the table" is the advocation that Government & SCOTUS need to examime motives of the speaker, further determing some level of "harm" that may come about from someone exercisting their 1st amendment right to free speech.

Your claim.

Her Claim.

In her article, Kagan said that examination of the motives of government is the proper approach for the Supreme Court


Her words are there for all to see.

The speaker is not the government. The government is restricting the speakers speech. She says the courts should examine why. This would strengthen the first, not weaken it.

As far as harm goes, she says this according to the article sirs posted.

While Kagan does not offer an exhaustive definition of ?harm,? she does offer examples of speech that may be regulated, such as incitement to violence, hate-speech, threatening or ?fighting? words.

Pretty much settled law since Buckley vs Ohio which clarified the falsely crying fire in a theater ruling.

sirs

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Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #119 on: May 15, 2010, 11:14:41 AM »
In her article it was a tad more broad, that of the motives of the speaker

For all to see
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle