Author Topic: Solicitor General Elena Kagan  (Read 11734 times)

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sirs

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Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #90 on: May 13, 2010, 02:48:26 PM »
I like my links to educating, better.  Provides a more accurate picture of this "fundmental change" being forced upon this country
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #91 on: May 13, 2010, 03:19:52 PM »
Like educating the electorate....Yeah we have already covered numerous
justices including Chief Justices who came to the bench with no previous
experience. Rehnquist and Warren come to mind.

BT can you pass that along to Obama?
Who said when he was a US Senator:
"A Supreme Court Nominee With No Judicial
Experience Requires Extreme Scrutiny
"


http://www.breitbart.tv/obama-flashback-a-supreme-court-nominee-with-no-judicial-experience-requires-extreme-scrutiny/
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

sirs

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Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #92 on: May 13, 2010, 03:35:32 PM »
*snicker*......now that looks familiar
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #93 on: May 13, 2010, 04:24:23 PM »
Quote
BT can you pass that along to Obama?

Sure next time i see him.

But in the meantime a lack of previous judicial experience doesn't seem to have affected the work of the many justices  i listed in that previous post. So that lack is not a disqualifier, perhaps something else in her resume might need scrutiny.




sirs

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Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #94 on: May 13, 2010, 04:42:44 PM »
That sounds a little redundant, Bt.  Hard to scrutinize what's non-existant, such as a judicial record.  it would have to be other areas of her "resume'"
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #95 on: May 13, 2010, 05:14:19 PM »
BT...I'm not sure I even want her dis-qualified
because i think we could end up much worse
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

BT

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Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #96 on: May 13, 2010, 09:02:09 PM »
Quote
That sounds a little redundant, Bt.  Hard to scrutinize what's non-existant, such as a judicial record.  it would have to be other areas of her "resume'"

Sure her writings and teachings are fair targets.

BT

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Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #97 on: May 13, 2010, 09:03:18 PM »
BT...I'm not sure I even want her dis-qualified
because i think we could end up much worse


Yeah i think Obama played it safe on this one. She was approved as Solicitor General a little over a year ago, by the same Senate that is vetting her now.


Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #98 on: May 13, 2010, 09:14:44 PM »
Yeah i think Obama played it safe on this one.
She was approved as Solicitor General a little over a year ago, by the same Senate that is vetting her now.
'cept this guy...that kicked ass!

quite a nice trade...Ted Kennedy for Scott Brown!

"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Plane

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sirs

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Re: Holder tangent
« Reply #100 on: May 14, 2010, 04:50:52 AM »
Kagan's Just the Latest Radical Obama Lawyer
Here are some of the lawyers that Mr. Obama has appointed:

Eric Holder, Attorney General. Mr. Holder wants to bring terrorists to trial in civilian courts, has called America a "nation of cowards" for not being obsessed with race, and allowed the Justice Department to drop counts against New Black Panther Party members charged with voter intimidation in Philadelphia in 2008.

Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr., who has been critical of Arizona's new immigration law, said Thursday he hasn't yet read the law and is going by what he's read in newspapers or seen on television.

Mr. Holder is conducting a review of the law, at President Obama's request, to see if the federal government should challenge it in court. He said he expects he will read the law by the time his staff briefs him on their conclusions.

"I've just expressed concerns on the basis of what I've heard about the law. But I'm not in a position to say at this point, not having read the law, not having had the chance to interact with people are doing the review, exactly what my position is," Mr. Holder told the House Judiciary Committee.

This weekend Mr. Holder told NBC's "Meet the Press" program that the Arizona law "has the possibility of leading to racial profiling." He had earlier called the law's passage "unfortunate," and questioned whether the law was unconstitutional because it tried to assume powers that may be reserved for the federal government.

Rep. Ted Poe, who had questioned Mr. Holder about the law, wondered how he could have those opinions if he hadn't yet read the legislation.

"It's hard for me to understand how you would have concerns about something being unconstitutional if you haven't even read the law," the Texas Republican told the attorney general.

The Arizona law's backers argue that it doesn't go beyond what federal law already allows, and they say press reports have distorted the legislation. They point to provisions in the law that specifically rule out racial profiling as proof that it can be implemented without conflicting with civil rights.

But critics said giving police the power to stop those they suspect are in the country illegally is bound to lead to profiling.

Mr. Holder said he expects the Justice and Homeland Security departments will finish their review of the Arizona law soon.


Ooops
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 11:09:14 AM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #101 on: May 14, 2010, 01:54:02 PM »
I did, and you'd be wrong.  "Redistribution of speech" were her words.  She specifically referenced if such speech might be "harmful", and where the Supreme Court should step in to largely make new law, in identifying what is to be acceptable speech, and what is deemed "harmful", and thus restricted

From your article and your emphasis:

She argued that government can restrict speech if it believes that speech might cause harm, either directly or by inciting others to do harm.  

Are you aware that that is settled law?

The First Amendment holding in Schenck was later overturned by Brandenburg v. Ohio, which limited the scope of banned speech to that which would be directed to and likely to incite imminent lawless action (e.g. a riot). The test in Brandenburg is the current High Court jurisprudence on the ability of government to proscribe speech after that fact.

Seems her opinion piece specifically says that Obama can't suppress Rush's speech just because he doesn't like what Rush says. Even if Timothy McVeigh had Rush's name tattoed on his butt, Kagan advocated looking into Clinton's motivation when he accuses Rush of inciting violence.


Once upon a time we could count on lawyers and law school professors to defend the First Amendment, the most important 46 words in the Constitution. Those 46 words make everything else possible. Shut up the people and the government can shut down every other freedom.

The genius of the Founding Fathers was their ability to write the Constitution in the plain English that everybody could understand. Lawyers, who can employ entire boring paragraphs to say "good morning" (many young women have dozed off while their lawyer swains were on their knees with a proposal of marriage) would inflict damage later.

A good lawyer, or even a bad one, can put loopholes in any proposal. To wit, Elena Kagans explanation of the First Amendment. It's perfectly OK, she wrote in the University of Chicago Law Review, for the government to restrict free speech as long as it means well and calls it something else. The word "restrictions" sounds bad, like a leather restraint, but Mzz Kagan's "redistribution of speech" can sound benign, like free cheese. Who doesn't like cheese? She argued that the government can employ Orwellian restrictions on speech if it thinks such speech might "harm" others, either by direct action or inciting someone else to take direct action. Who gets to decide when such restrictions are imposed for the greater good? Why, the government, of course.

Here's how the Founding Fathers, ever suspicious of ambitious Lilliputians, wrote the guarantee of free speech: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or of the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Note that the First Amendment does not say that Congress "should" make no law abridging the freedom of speech, or that it would be nice if it didn't. The operative words are "shall make no law."

The Constitution has "evolved" since then, of course, and now the liberal left, led by the Warren Court and its bastard progeny, has discovered all manner of "emanations" and "penumbra," like an embedded Da Vinci code, that the Constitution doesn't really mean what the words say it means. What part of "shall" can Mzz Kagan not understand?

She does not identify, exactly, what speech the government could regard as inflicting such "harm" as to justify suspending the Constitution, but she offers as examples incitement to violence, "hate speech" and "fighting words." Since certain friends of the White House have suggested that "tea party" activists may have already been guilty of sedition, we can imagine what some of the violations might one day be.

President Obama's selection of Mzz Kagan is of a piece with what is emerging as his operating philosophy of government. The president's thin skin, his irritation with constructive criticism, is well known, and we can all be sympathetic. Who among us relishes criticism? But he's not content to retire to the cosseting comfort of the Oval Office to sulk. He complained to the Class of '10 at Hampton University the other day that Internet blogs, certain cable television networks and talk radio make life tough and inconvenient at the White House. Mzz Kagan's "redistribution of speech" could fix this.

Elena Kagan has no large body of work that makes it easy to see what kind of justice she might be. This is the most important reason the president selected her. The White House is trying to keep her away from even the most polite questions until she has to face softballs from sympathetic senators. He expects quick partisan confirmation. So he can't object to the despised pundits, bloggers, cable-TV commentators and radio talk-show hosts and guests speculating from whatever meager hints and clues they find in her past. Mr. Obama himself is the model for these speculators.

He was frustrated by the lack of a paper trail for Harriet Miers, the White House lawyer for George W. Bush and a Supreme Court nominee whom Elena Kagan, with her abundant inexperience, resembles in many ways. Mr. Obama, then a very junior U.S. senator, called Mzz Miers "a blank slate" and said that "in the absence of a judicial record" she would have to be more forthcoming, and the White House would have to be more forthcoming, in answering fundamental questions about who she really was. Mr. Bush, properly chastened by the uproar over the Miers nomination, much of it led by conservatives, summoned the grace to withdraw the nomination.


but naaa....she acutally strengthens free speech.      ::)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #102 on: May 14, 2010, 02:04:40 PM »
I am saddened to see Pruden has joined the chorus of those misreporting what she said.


sirs

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Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #103 on: May 14, 2010, 03:00:42 PM »
Or, dare I say, perhaps more likely, Bt has misunderstood what Kagen actually said.  Given her hx and past rhetoric, including recent revelations at her thoughts regarding the 2nd amendment, the latter would seem more likely than the former
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Solicitor General Elena Kagan
« Reply #104 on: May 14, 2010, 03:17:43 PM »
I read the CNS article you posted and even in that article it shows that both you and Pruden misrepresent what she says. Let's review: Emphasis mine

In her article, Kagan said that examination of the motives of government is the proper approach for the Supreme Court when looking at whether a law violates the First Amendment. While not denying that other concerns, such as the impact of a law, can be taken into account, Kagan argued that governmental motive is ?the most important? factor.
 
In doing so, Kagan constructed a complex framework that can be used by the Court to determine whether or not Congress has restricted First Amendment freedoms with improper intent.
 
She defined improper intent as prohibiting or restricting speech merely because Congress or a public majority dislikes either the message or the messenger, or because the message or messenger may be harmful to elected officials or their political priorities.

Yet Pruden uses the Tea Party as an example of who would be affected if Kagan's position became standard practice. In my opinion the Tea Party's protection is enhanced.
 
The first part of this framework involves restrictions that appear neutral, such as campaign finance laws, but in practice amount to an unconstitutional restriction. Kagan wrote that the effect of such legislation can be taken as evidence of improper motive because such motives often play a part in bringing the legislation into being.
 
?The answer to this question involves viewing the Buckley principle [that government cannot balance between competing speakers] as an evidentiary tool designed to aid in the search for improper motive,? Kagan wrote. ?The Buckley principle emerges not from the view that redistribution of speech opportunities is itself an illegitimate end, but from the view that governmental actions justified as redistributive devices often (though not always) stem partly from hostility or sympathy toward ideas or, even more commonly, from self-interest.?
 
Kagan notes, however, that such ?redistribution of speech? is not ?itself an illegitimate end,? but that government may not restrict it to protect incumbent politicians or because it dislikes a particular speaker or a particular message.


She argued that government can restrict speech if it believes that speech might cause harm, either directly or by inciting others to do harm.
 
Laws that only incidentally affect speech are constitutional, Kagan said, because the government?s motive in enacting them is not the restriction of First Amendment freedom but the prohibition of some other ? unprotected ? activity.
 
She argues in the piece that a law banning fires in public places is not unconstitutional, even if it means that protesters cannot burn flags in public. A law outlawing flag burning protests, however, would be, because the motive is to stop a particular protest.