DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Seamus on November 15, 2007, 06:48:39 PM
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If abortion WERE to be made illegal, what should the punishment be?
An acquaintance sent me a link to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk6t_tdOkwo# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk6t_tdOkwo#) which was obviously made by a pro-choicer. But id did stump the people at this demonstration, and I was wondering peoples views here, since most seem intelligent. This forum also gives people time to form their thoughts rather than be put on the spot. So ponder as you will and then please comment!
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>>If abortion WERE to be made illegal, what should the punishment be?<<
Death by saline solution.
Actually the punishment would be 1.) perminent removal of medical license, 2.) Up to five years in jail, and 3.) $20,000 fine.
Sound good?
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If abortion WERE to be made illegal, what should the punishment be?
Punish them with some punishment less severe than killing their children.
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All this so you religious nutz can once again tell loose women that the price for screwing around is to raise an unwanted child.
No reason to make it illegal.
Foetuses are not babies.
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If abortion WERE to be made illegal, what should the punishment be?
For those who made it illegal, to have to raise each and every unwanted child themselves - crack babies, HIV positive, every one of them, regardless of health, disability, race, whatever. I don't particularly agree that abortion is the best solution, but until you can show me that every baby that would otherwise be aborted will be given a loving home, I see no reason to tell anyone she must raise a child she does not want.
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It's interesting how the question resonates with people who, like me, don't think abortion should be made illegal.
Philosophically, if you are required to set a penalty for an act that you don't see anything wrong with, the only way you can reconcile your view of the act itself with the requirement to set a penalty for it is to set the minimum possible penalty - a fine of one cent with no increase for repeat offenders.
You might as well ask Christians, if Christianity were to be outlawed, what do you think the penalty should be for anyone convicted of believing in or practicing Christianity?
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All this so you religious nutz can once again tell loose women that the price for screwing around is to raise an unwanted child.
I guess you think adoption should be made illegal at the same time?
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All this so you religious nutz can once again tell loose women that the price for screwing around is to raise an unwanted child.
No reason to make it illegal.
Foetuses are not babies.
XO - Was that helpful? Did it answer the question? I did not ask SHOULD we make it illegal. I said, IF IT was made illegal.
IF we made... well, McDonalds food is supposed to be bad for you. IF we made eating McDonalds food illegal, what should the punishment be for eating there?
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If abortion were made illegal then anyone performing an abortion should lose any applicable licenses and as well as lose any assets gained or used during the commission of the crime.
Just as if McDonald's food were declared illegal one would suspect Golden Arches would disappear from the landscape.
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The difficulty with naming a penalty for an act that I do not consider in any way illegal, because it is none of my business if some woman has or does not have a child, is that I do not believe that ANY penalty is proper.
I see that the usual people want to prosecute doctors for this. The doctor is not the person who decides whether the woman has the abortion.
If Joe Bananas decides to off Little Tony, and hires Rocco and Guido to do it, according to this logic Rocco and Guido should be punished, but Joe Bananas, without whom there would have been be no murder, goes free.
How many years are you willing to stick a seventeen year old girl, who does not feel that she can raise a child in prison for violating your personal morality code?
I personally do not ever plan to have an abortion. But it is my body and no one has a right to tell me what to do with it. If I wish to cover my face with a whacking Maori tattoo, it is not your concern.
Likewise, I do not control any woman's body, and would not presume to tell her what she must do with it.
It's just none of my business.
If you have a daughter below the age of fifteen or so perhaps you should have a right to tell her what to do.
But that is the only YOUR daughter, not mine or anyone else's.
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If the procedure is illegal then the performer of that procedure is guilty of an illegal act.
The equation doesn't care that there are willing customers for the procedure.
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But it is my body and no one has a right to tell me what to do with it. If I wish to cover my face with a whacking Maori tattoo, it is not your concern.
And yet, you feel perfectly justified in telling others that they MUST get certain vaccinations...
Don't those others also have the right to decide what medical procedures they are to undergo? Or is that something you reserve for yourself?
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Likewise, I do not control any woman's body, and would not presume to tell her what she must do with it.
It's just none of my business.
I noticed this after I posted. Yes, you do presume to tell women that they MUST get the cervical cancer vaccination. Whether or not they wish to...
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>>... I see no reason to tell anyone she must raise a child she does not want.<<
So being "unwanted" is a death sentence? "Unwanted" children might actually choose an "unwanted" life if given the option.
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And yet, you feel perfectly justified in telling others that they MUST get certain vaccinations...
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If people are unvaccinated against possibly epidemic diseases, this should be done as to prevent the spread of disease.
Pregnancy, and the lack of same, is hardly contagious.
This argument is bogus.
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Pregnancy, and the lack of same, is hardly contagious.
Cervical cancer is hardly contagious. Matter of fact, it's pretty much only contagious during the act that causes pregnancy.
And yet, you feel that women should have no say over their bodies when it comes to this vaccine.
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The difficulty with naming a penalty for an act that I do not consider in any way illegal, because it is none of my business if some woman has or does not have a child, is that I do not believe that ANY penalty is proper.
I agree with you. (Supprised?) Well, er.. okay, mostly I agree with you. My personal stance is, if it could live outside the mothers womb, then it's ceased to be a parasitic tumor type thing and has become a human. If you have it removed and it survives via life support and/or other medical care, and it goes into the "child welfare system" then I believe you should be paying child support to said system for the next 18 years. However, if it's still just a growth on the inside of a woman, it's my belief she has a right to have it excised.
To answer my own question, I think the punishment for performing an illegal should be community service of some kind.
I see that the usual people want to prosecute doctors for this. The doctor is not the person who decides whether the woman has the abortion.
Well, I did not state whether or not it was performing abortions or receiving abortions. Some people took it one way apparently.
If Joe Bananas decides to off Little Tony, and hires Rocco and Guido to do it, according to this logic Rocco and Guido should be punished, but Joe Bananas, without whom there would have been be no murder, goes free.
Seems to me it's more akin to do you arrest the prostitute or the john?
How many years are you willing to stick a seventeen year old girl, who does not feel that she can raise a child in prison for violating your personal morality code?
I'm not. But my opinion is above. But if what she does is illegal in the law, I think SOME punishment should be required. Be it $100 fine and 100 hours community service.
I personally do not ever plan to have an abortion. But it is my body and no one has a right to tell me what to do with it. If I wish to cover my face with a whacking Maori tattoo, it is not your concern.
Again, I maintain that if you wait too long, or change your mind at the last minute, then it could be murder. If they can save the life, then you're responsible for bringing it into the world. If you're just having a cyst removed. That's your concern.
Likewise, I do not control any woman's body, and would not presume to tell her what she must do with it.
It's just none of my business.
When you make blanked statements like this tho, isn't it akin to saying "I do not control what that women did when she stabbed her husband. It's just none of my business."?
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Cervical cancer is hardly contagious. Matter of fact, it's pretty much only contagious during the act that causes pregnancy.
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Four comments: (1) I have never said that a vaccination should be compulsory, but it should be seriously promoted, simply because it prevents a fatal disease. Someone else made this comment, not I.
(2) If it can be passed from one person to another, then it is not "hardly contagious" it is definitely contagious. Sex is a frequent and natural act.
(3) An unwanted pregnancy has the potential of being a far greater inconvenience to a woman than taking a vaccine, and being as it could prevent a death in exchange for a simpleand harmless vaccine, it would be entirely logical for any woman to get the vaccine.
(4) Finally consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. Your trying to tell me that I am I am inconsistent about two things that differ so much as pregnancy and vaccination suggest that you might be seriously into hobgoblintry.
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Four comments: (1) I have never said that a vaccination should be compulsory, but it should be seriously promoted, simply because it prevents a fatal disease. Someone else made this comment, not I.
(2) If it can be passed from one person to another, then it is not "hardly contagious" it is definitely contagious. Sex is a frequent and natural act.
(3) An unwanted pregnancy has the potential of being a far greater inconvenience to a woman than taking a vaccine, and being as it could prevent a death in exchange for a simpleand harmless vaccine, it would be entirely logical for any woman to get the vaccine.
(4) Finally consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. Your trying to tell me that I am I am inconsistent about two things that differ so much as pregnancy and vaccination suggest that you might be seriously into hobgoblintry.
You have advocated mandatory vaccinations.
I guess you have never heard of a vaccination killing a person.
I have heard of such a thing happening.
The only hobgoblin around here is the one who thinks only their own opinions are valid.
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Just a note:
I spoke with a nurse friend of mine. She says the fetus has a heart beat and can feel pain around 9 weeks. Does this change anything for anyone?
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Just a note:
I spoke with a nurse friend of mine. She says the fetus has a heart beat and can feel pain around 9 weeks. Does this change anything for anyone?
Should a fetus be given anesthesia before killing it?
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Just a note:
I spoke with a nurse friend of mine. She says the fetus has a heart beat and can feel pain around 9 weeks. Does this change anything for anyone?
Unfortunately, probably not :-\
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Just a note:
I spoke with a nurse friend of mine. She says the fetus has a heart beat and can feel pain around 9 weeks. Does this change anything for anyone?
Should a fetus be given anesthesia before killing it?
knee jerk opinion? Yes. When we kill people on death row, we try and be humane about it. Same as when we put down our beloved Fido when he gets too old. If it can feel pain, I think some kind of anesthetic would not be out of the question...
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Just a note:
I spoke with a nurse friend of mine. She says the fetus has a heart beat and can feel pain around 9 weeks. Does this change anything for anyone?
Should a fetus be given anesthesia before killing it?
knee jerk opinion? Yes. When we kill people on death row, we try and be humane about it. Same as when we put down our beloved Fido when he gets too old. If it can feel pain, I think some kind of anesthetic would not be out of the question...
Lab mice get more consideration and kindness than Human Fetuses do.
But you annot recognise their Humanity , nor even their existance as a creature, without implying that righs apply to them.
It is nessacery to deny.
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requiring anesthesia for a fetus would have a profound psychological effect on potential clients of the procedure.