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Bin Laden, Torture and Hollywood
« on: December 09, 2012, 02:58:16 PM »
Bin Laden, Torture and Hollywood
By FRANK BRUNI

Published: December 8, 2012

I’M betting that Dick Cheney will love the new movie “Zero Dark Thirty.”

Who could have predicted that? Hollywood, after all, is supposed to be a West Coast annex of the Democratic National Committee, and the makers of this gripping thriller, about the hunt for Osama bin Laden, were expected to repay the Obama administration for its indulgence of them with a tribute to the current president’s wisdom and grit.

But the movie of the year is also the political conundrum of the year, a far, far cry from the rousing piece of pro-Obama propaganda that some conservatives feared it would be. “Zero Dark Thirty,” which opens in theaters on Dec. 19 and presents itself as a quasi-journalistic account of what really happened, gives primary credit for the killing of Bin Laden to neither the Bush nor the Obama administrations but to one obsessive C.I.A. analyst whose work spans both presidencies. And it presents the kind of torture that Cheney advocated — but that President Obama ended — as something of an information-extracting necessity, repellent but fruitful.

Even as David Edelstein, the film critic for New York magazine, named “Zero Dark Thirty” the best movie of 2012 in a recent article, he digressed to say that it “borders on the politically and morally reprehensible,” because it “makes a case for the efficacy of torture.”

Edelstein isn’t the only critic in a morally complicated swoon over “Zero Dark Thirty.” Last week the New York Film Critics Circle awarded it the best movie of the year. So did the National Board of Review. Surprises atop surprises: not only does “Zero Dark Thirty” decline to toe a conventionally liberal line, but it is being embraced by many cultural arbiters who are probably at some level horrified by the conclusions it seems to reach.

Will they wrestle honestly with that, as Edelstein did? Or will they elect unsullied rapture for “Zero Dark Thirty” and either ignore or come up with a selective interpretation of its policy implications? That will be one of the fascinating wrinkles of the imminent debate about a movie that demands close examination.

With ample reason, we often dismiss what comes out of the commercially minded dream factory of Hollywood as simplistic, candied, trivial. Yet “Zero Dark Thirty” and “Lincoln,” another of the year-end movies at the center of the unfolding Oscar race, are dedicated to the ethical ambiguities and messy compromises of governing — to the muck and stink that sometimes go into the effort of keeping this mighty country of ours intact and safe.

“Lincoln” looks at that through the prism of our 16th president and the legislative art and chicanery by which he and his allies passed the 13th Amendment, ending slavery. “Zero Dark Thirty” uses the war on terror as its lens and raises big, complicated questions about whether one brand of evil excuses another and the preservation of freedom hinges on targeted applications of savagery. From Hollywood during the holiday season, we’re getting not just “The Hobbit” and the inevitable Tom Cruise vehicle. We’re getting a civics lesson.

“Zero Dark Thirty” takes its title from a military term for half past midnight, which is when Navy SEALs raided Bin Laden’s compound in Pakistan. It’s the work of the director Kathryn Bigelow and the screenwriter Mark Boal, who previously collaborated on “The Hurt Locker.” As they researched their new movie, they got considerable cooperation from the C.I.A. and the Defense Department, provoking complaints from some conservatives, who smelled an Obama hagiography in the making.

They smelled wrong. Obama isn’t a character in the movie but, rather, a part of the backdrop to a narrative about the bloody drama and bloodless tedium of intelligence gathering over the course of nearly 10 years between 9/11 and the killing of Bin Laden. It’s about finding a needle in a uniquely messy and menacing haystack. “Enhanced interrogation techniques” like waterboarding are presented as crucial to that search, and it’s hard not to focus on them, because the first extended sequence in the movie shows a detainee being strung up by his wrists, sexually humiliated, deprived of sleep, made to feel as if he’s drowning and shoved into a box smaller than a coffin.

THE explicit detail with which all of this is depicted could, I suppose, be read as the moviemakers’ indictment of it, and to some extent “Zero Dark Thirty” will function as a Rorschach test, different viewers seeing in it what they want to see. But the torture sequence immediately follows a bone-chilling, audio-only prologue of the voices of terrified Americans trapped in the towering inferno of the World Trade Center. It’s set up as payback.

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And by the movie’s account, it produces information vital to the pursuit of the world’s most wanted man. No waterboarding, no Bin Laden: that’s what “Zero Dark Thirty” appears to suggest. And the intelligence agents involved in torture seem not so much relieved as challenged by Obama’s edict that it stop. Their quest for leads just got that much more difficult.

That’s hardly a universally accepted version of events. “Some of the F.B.I. agents and C.I.A. officers involved in this program at the really gritty, firsthand level were the ones who blew the whistle on it, because they were really horrified,” said Jane Mayer, the author of the best-selling book “The Dark Side,” which is widely considered the definitive account of the interrogation program.

“Zero Dark Thirty” doesn’t convey that, nor does it reflect many experts’ belief that torture is unnecessary, yielding as much bad information as good. “The military, the F.B.I., the C.I.A. itself — along with G.O.P. hawks like McCain, who was himself tortured — say there’s no justification, no need and no excuse,” Mayer said.

And for the drone attacks that have been a favored tactic of the Obama administration, leading to the assassinations of people never tried or convicted? Is there ample justification for that? The end of “enhanced interrogation” wasn’t the end of methods seemingly outside the usual precepts of American law, and as “Zero Dark Thirty” reminds us, Obama ordered the raid that led to Bin Laden’s death without any guarantee that Bin Laden would be there and that the bullet-riddled bodies in that Pakistan compound would be his and his associates’.

In the name of our democracy, we have long done and we continue to do some ruthless cost-benefit analyses and some very ugly things, to which we should never turn a blind eye. Whatever “Zero Dark Thirty” gets wrong, it gets that much right.

http://www.skweezer.com/s.aspx/-/www~nytimes~com/2012/12/09/opinion/sunday/bruni-bin-laden-torture-and-hollywood~html?pagewanted=2

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Bin Laden, Torture and Hollywood
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2012, 03:29:30 PM »
I would rather watch The Hobbit than this.

Maybe on Netflix, I will see it. It HAS to be better than some I have seen.
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Plane

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Re: Bin Laden, Torture and Hollywood
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2012, 03:39:01 PM »
Interesting.

Torture is honestly portrayed?

Do we know now whether we really needed to use such methods ?

Should we discourage or forbid torture even if it is productive?

Or is a realistic limit and licence for "enhanced interrogation" a good idea?

I guess I will see this movie , but I might wait for its CD version.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Bin Laden, Torture and Hollywood
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2012, 06:13:15 PM »
I don't think I actually want to see a movie in which torture is recreated. I watched Mel Gibson's "Passion of the Christ", which was mostly hideous torture,and I know I will never bother to watch it again.

I would prefer to see Dwarves slay orcs in Gondor, or elves shoot goblins full of arrows in Rivendale. That would be far more entertaining.

The Lincoln film sounds like another that I would rather see as well. It seems to be the most accurate portrayal of Lincoln. In most of the others, Lincoln is portrayed as some sort of political demigod, and I doubt that would satisfy the real Abe.
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BSB

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Re: Bin Laden, Torture and Hollywood
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2012, 07:24:53 PM »
Yeah, it's a tough choice. I don't like the idea of the torture sequences either for several reasons. I mean how can you get that right? How can it not look hollywoodized therefore leaving the audience with false impressions right from the start of the movie?

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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Bin Laden, Torture and Hollywood
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2012, 11:34:01 PM »
Sometimes torture works, other times it simply inspires people (especially innocent ones) to make up false accusations that lead to even more torture. The really hard part is determining the difference.
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BSB

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Re: Bin Laden, Torture and Hollywood
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2012, 12:41:04 AM »
I saw the results of etreme torture once. By that I mean the condition of the person tortured after the fact. Secondly, my First Sergeant told me what he saw during an "enhanced" interrogation, before that term was being used. Thirdly, during an interrogation of a women who had a baby in her arms I was used to bluff the mother into thinking that if she didn't talk the baby would be killed. I took the baby away from her and took care of it until the interrogation was over. Those three experiences left me strongly anti torture as a method of gaining intelligence. So, that's what my mind brings to the topic before it's even broached.


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Plane

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Re: Bin Laden, Torture and Hollywood
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2012, 01:41:24 AM »
  I have not been so near , so it is more abstract to me .

    This really keeps me from having a solidified opinion, I feel as if I am still listening to the persuasion.

     Do you think it is realistic and practical to entirely forbid such interrogation? Would some ignore such rules when they were in extreme circumstance?

       Would a rulebook with strict limits on methods be a good idea, and would an enemy of ours ever learn these limits before he was interrogated?

     Technology is getting ahead of these questions before we really get them answered .

      It won't be long before it will be possible to induce extreme distress without harm of any kind to a persons body.
       It won't be long before it is possible to turn a persons resistance temporally off and question the cooperative part of their brain which you would leave on.
      It is already possible to mechanicaly tell for certainty whether a person is telling the truth or not and we are close to having electronic means of determining whether a person is recognising a picture ,scene or face or seeing it for the first time.

     So long before we determine the rightness of what we already do, we will have a dozen more things to decide whether we should do or not.


     In the further future , absolute reading of minds and manipulation of memory is likely to become possible , but what are the purposes worthy of such invasion?

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Re: Bin Laden, Torture and Hollywood
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2012, 01:57:03 AM »
I just gave some first hand experiences, and honestly, not all of them. (After all, I was in a ground intelligence unit.) I saw the use of torture to gain intelligence ruin the career of one of the finest special operations, small unit tactics, officers in the Army only because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Beyond giving out some information, I'm not interested. Life is too short.


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Plane

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Re: Bin Laden, Torture and Hollywood
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2012, 02:03:30 AM »
Yes .

My need to know is a lot smaller than my couriosity.