Author Topic: Looking forward and looking back  (Read 8219 times)

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Brassmask

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Looking forward and looking back
« on: October 20, 2008, 05:36:16 PM »
I'm about 80% convinced that Obama has it.  I hold back my being totally convinced till that Wednesday the 5th because of several factors.

1) Racism - Saturday, I dropped by to see my mom and she told me my uncle and his wife were coming in town to see her on Sunday.  My uncle and I have had political discussions before.  He wanted to support Dean in '04 mainly because of the energy and excitement he saw around Dean but he held back because he feared that Dean was too liberal.  Kerry was his guy since Kerry was military and so was my uncle.  My uncle is one of those old timey Dems who held on through Nixon's southern strategy but he went on, I'm sure, to vote for Reagan but Dem since Reagan.

I asked my mom if he had mentioned his position.  She said he had not but she felt she knew for sure that he would be voting for McCain because she didn't think he would ever vote for a black man.

That was pretty devastating for me.  I knew that he was a blatant racist back when I was a kid but I felt that he had grown out of that as he had mellowed with age.  I've not talked to my mom today to see if she found out but if he, being something of a yellow dog Dem would see the race that way, then I worry about how many people like my uncle are out there.

2) Electronic Voting - Already, West Virginia is reporting widespread issues with the machines where a person will choose Obama and the vote will register for McCain.  I saw a blurb from RFK Jr where he said that the election is already stolen.

My faith in the election system is about 40% of what it should be.  I feel like voting is the only avenue available to me to effect change and exert some tiny modicum of control over our nation and that everyone should go out and cast their vote.  On the other hand, sometimes I feel like the whole voting system is compromised by the electronic voting machines. 

Vigilance is the key but I fear that there will be intimidation in poorer neighborhoods and some people will leave having wanted to vote for Obama but knowing that there vote will count towards McCain.

3) This last two week stretch.  I'm really concerned that people who will have voted for Obama may stay to the house thinking that Obama "has got it".  Or people will simply flake out and not plan to take off or won't take the time to go early vote.  This two weeks that we're about to head into will prove difficult for Obama to keep people excited about his candidacy and those voters who are wanting to vote for him in an historic election may not stay excited without the weekly reminders of the debates.

GOP voters are older and more hardcore about their support and I fear they may show while all the kids that are now signed up will have partied all weekend and barely made it to class on Monday and not be able to crawl out of bed on Tuesday morning and make to the polls.

For first time voters, the idea of voting is exciting but it becomes daunting when they consider that they will have to have made sure they were registered first of all but then they actually have to go to the poll which they first have to find out how to find out how to find.  That can be a real hassle to someone who's never voted before.

And while I have been more than happy to help GOP voters sign up or help them find where to vote, I have sincere doubts that a Republican will help anyone who they think might vote for Obama.



For the most part, I think everyone has made up their minds.  That last 4 to 8% who haven't are probably not going to make a difference on the whole race. 

Personally, I have to admit that I just want it to be over.  It had been my intention to ignore the race this time around and not put myself in the position of giving a damn or hoping for a specific outcome but my idealism got the best of me and I let Obama's intellect, wisdom, rhetorical stylings and substance persuade me.

Most of the time, I find myself driving along and realizing that I'm thinking about the election too much.  It's really depressing for me to see my country's citizens in the middle of an historic period where we have, in my perception, such a clear cut choice between what is right for America right now and something that was right for America 8 years ago.

John McCain is a good man.  He is the textbook definition of an American Hero.  I would have had real difficulty in 2000 deciding between him and Al Gore if things had gone differently.  I used to have nothing but respect for the guy but he has simply sold his soul to Rovian devils in order to get the presidency.  He actually has the guy who did the push-polls about his adopted daughter running the robo-calls trying to link Obama and Ayers.

I've tried to stay out of the dirt with you guys around here but it has proven very difficult as I have seen the people I most respect on the right here turn into the same kind of foaming at the mouth maddogs as rich and sirs.  I had high hopes that this race would prove to be a boon for us here and it would result in real discussions about policies and stances but for the most part it has been an endless stream of invective, smears and slander.

Tit for tat and that was something of a disappointment.  Maybe the election will change that somehow.

Looking forward to November 4th.

Brassmask

BT

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Re: Looking forward and looking back
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2008, 06:12:32 PM »
It ain't over til thefat lady sings.

That's why they play the game.

I think Obama will win but it will be a squeaker and i think charges of stolen elections will dog him.


sirs

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Re: Looking forward and looking back
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2008, 07:10:51 PM »
John McCain is a good man.  He is the textbook definition of an American Hero. 

Don't let Tee catch you typing that.  He'll revoke your fringe liberal card     ;)

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Looking forward and looking back
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2008, 07:21:16 PM »
John McCain is a good man.  He is the textbook definition of an American Hero.

============================================================
Audey Murphy is the textbook definition. Maybe Sergeant York.

McCain didn't win the war. He bombed people from a great height.
He got shot down.
He didn't save any comrade's life.
He didn't saw the locks off Auschwitz and feed the stariong victims of oppression.


But this is not an election to reward a hero. It is an election to pick a leader who will at least restore the country to the condition it was in before Juniorbush screwed it up.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Brassmask

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Re: Looking forward and looking back
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2008, 07:47:29 PM »
John McCain is a good man.  He is the textbook definition of an American Hero.

============================================================
Audey Murphy is the textbook definition. Maybe Sergeant York.

McCain didn't win the war. He bombed people from a great height.
He got shot down.
He didn't save any comrade's life.
He didn't saw the locks off Auschwitz and feed the stariong victims of oppression.

Maybe he didn't do the things you say here but if we are to believe what is said to have happened, he DID go to VietNam, he did get shot down, he was interned in the Hanoi Hilton, he was tortured and he did decline to leave unless everyone got to leave.  And the reason he is a hero is because he did all that at his country's behest as was his duty as a member of our military.

The mission, the orders, what followed is moot.  His choice to stay is heroic.

As I said, he has since sold his soul to Rovian devils.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Looking forward and looking back
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2008, 09:19:19 PM »
Perhaps he is a species of hero. But he is not a classic American hero. He was not fighting for 'truth, justice and the American Way". He was fighting for Diem, Thu and major corruption, and had he not gone to Vietnam, it would have made no difference to anyone. There was nothing American to defend in Vietnam, it was a bad idea from start to finish, and visibly so from the very first adviser.



"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Brassmask

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Re: Looking forward and looking back
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2008, 09:29:34 PM »
Perhaps he is a species of hero. But he is not a classic American hero. He was not fighting for 'truth, justice and the American Way". He was fighting for Diem, Thu and major corruption, and had he not gone to Vietnam, it would have made no difference to anyone. There was nothing American to defend in Vietnam, it was a bad idea from start to finish, and visibly so from the very first adviser.


If I've learned anything in the last few years, it is the understanding that there are no Supermen.

If you need to have it fit your idea of "hero" then to you I would say that he once conducted himself in a heroic fashion under the circumstances he found himself.

He is/was a decent man but he is simply the wrong man for the presidency at this time when Barack Obama is running against him.

Michael Tee

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Re: Looking forward and looking back
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2008, 09:59:56 PM »
I am trying to wrap my head around the idea that a man who drops napalm on peasant villages in a war to subdue an anti-colonial revolution by oppressed natives can be a hero. 

The fucking bastard is a war criminal and an almost classic case of one and should have been put on trial for his life long before this.

His "torture" stories BTW are as phony as a three-dollar bill.  His own jailer, located in Viet Nam and interviewed, has denied that he was ever tortured.  If he was really tortured, he wouldn't be able to walk upright.  For an individual who has caused human beings, children, to be roasted alive in flaming gasoline jelly, he got off pretty lightly and has one hell of a God-damn nerve to whine now about all his "tortures." 

We sure do live in a sick, sick world.  That a man like John McCain can not only run for President, but be acclaimed as a "hero" at the same time.  Unbelievable.

richpo64

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Re: Looking forward and looking back
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2008, 11:10:19 PM »
>>Maybe he didn't do the things you say here but if we are to believe what is said to have happened, he DID go to VietNam, he did get shot down, he was interned in the Hanoi Hilton, he was tortured and he did decline to leave unless everyone got to leave.  And the reason he is a hero is because he did all that at his country's behest as was his duty as a member of our military.<<

Every once in a while Brass. Every once in a while...

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Looking forward and looking back
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2008, 11:53:42 PM »
Getting shot down does not make anyone a hero.

Being a prisoner makes anyone a victim, not a hero.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Looking forward and looking back
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2008, 04:41:41 AM »
Getting shot down does not make anyone a hero.

Being a prisoner makes anyone a victim, not a hero.

Getting in that plane makes a pilot a hero.

By the time he knows how to use his aircraft to fight , he knows quite well what risk he runs.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Looking forward and looking back
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2008, 11:22:48 AM »
No, getting in a plane does not make anyone a hero.

Were the Japanese who bombed Pearl Harbor heroes?

Were the Nazis who flew the Stukas and strafed Poland heros?


McCain was not a hero because he flew a plane. He was following orders, perhaps putting himself in danger. You could say the same thing about the Wichita Lineman.

Worship of the military is not any sort of virtue. Unless you mean FASCIST virtue.

A Swedish pilot or a Swiss pilot is more likely to be heroic, because defending Sweden or Switzerland is highly unlikely to go 20,000 miles away and bomb someone else's country.

Americans fighting in Vietnam may have been brave, but heroes they were not. Some were misguided patriots, others were just suckers, but nothing they did benefited anyone in this country other than the arms industry.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Looking forward and looking back
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2008, 12:03:19 PM »
No, getting in a plane does not make anyone a hero.

Were the Japanese who bombed Pearl Harbor heroes?

Were the Nazis who flew the Stukas and strafed Poland heroes?


McCain was not a hero because he flew a plane. He was following orders, perhaps putting himself in danger. You could say the same thing about the Wichita Lineman.

Worship of the military is not any sort of virtue. Unless you mean FASCIST virtue.

A Swedish pilot or a Swiss pilot is more likely to be heroic, because defending Sweden or Switzerland is highly unlikely to go 20,000 miles away and bomb someone else's country.

Americans fighting in Vietnam may have been brave, but heroes they were not. Some were misguided patriots, others were just suckers, but nothing they did benefited anyone in this country other than the arms industry.



Failing to resist the expansion of Communism?

Oh yes ,that was worthwile and important.

Imagine the world in which Communism was not resisted in Berlin,Korea , Vietnam , Cambodia(... well it wasn't resisted much in Cambodia , but that makes my point) or Afghanistan.

Perhaps the Soviet Union would not have become exhausted and collapsed without the fighting and every country that resisted on its own would have had no more success than Hungary  in the Prague spring.

We could be speaking Russian now , except we would have no internet , or right to speak.

Brassmask

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Re: Looking forward and looking back
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2008, 10:11:56 PM »
Gentleman, personally speaking, I would have been happy if this thread had ended with richpo's comments here:

Quote
Every once in a while Brass. Every once in a while...

In all my days in 3DHS, I can't recall ever reading the slightest of agreement from Richpo towards anything that I've ever said.  While this comment is glowing endorsement or implicit agreement, it is something.

My comment here is not to put him on the spot or give him grief; I would much rather address my fellow travelers XO and Michael Tee.  Please just take a minute and think about where we are.

We are potentially two weeks away from an historic turning point in US history.  Our "team", the Democrats is about to "win".  The GOP had 6-8 years of unfettered application of their ideologies and core principles.  By nearly all accounts, it has been a resounding and utter failure.  Two wars quagmires that have no real goals or end in sight under GOP control.  Katrina.  Worst economic crisis since the Great Depression mostly due to total de-regulation.  9.11 and the unbelievably wasted opportunity to bring the world closer to total peace.  Halliburton.  And on and on...

No doubt that an Obama administration will have its share of failures but I would hope that those of us who support Barack Obama might not start out in the mindset that the supporters of the Bush "administration" are ending in.  I am saying that I am (perhaps overly) hopeful for the near future and that I fear that by spending our time to try and tear down McCain, Palin and their supporters.

Yes, I know that they won't stop trying to tear down Obama, Biden, those of us here who support that ticket and all the others who support him but that is their cross to bear.  I heard Stephen Colbert toss out a line one night when asking a guest how the McCain ticket was going to bounce back.  "How are they going to attack Obama and Biden," he asked, "because you can't win a footrace without a handgun, right?"  And that is exactly how the right is going about this thing.

They can't outrun Obama in an honest footrace, so they have to take shots at him in hopes of slowing him down and for the last few years, I have held a memory in my head of something that John McCain said that made me respect him more than most in our federal government. 

He was giving a speech on banning torture.  He is an excerpt:

Quote
"America stands for a moral mission, one of freedom and democracy and human rights at home and abroad. We are better than these terrorists, and we will we win. I have said it before but it bears repeating: The enemy we fight has no respect for human life or human rights. They don't deserve our sympathy. But this isn't about who they are. This is about who we are. These are the values that distinguish us from our enemies, and we can never, never allow our enemies to take those values away."

Though I have made rash comparisons in the past between those on the right and any number of horrible people or types of people or groups in the past, I am in no way meaning to compare our right-wing compatriots with terrorists or torturers but the intent and construction of his statement is what applies.

Those on the right are in what they perceive as the fight of their lives, the fight for the fate of the nation and what they want it to be like.  Especially in these last two weeks, those in charge of this fight, the higher-ups, will have to sink even lower and lower to depths yet unplumbed.  And most of those here will support those lower depth stances and actions.  They will follow their higher-ups by choice, some not by choice and some will not follow.

But for those of us supporting Obama and Biden, this is not about who they are, it is about who we are.  There can be no mistake that we have followed them into the ditches and also led and/or dragged them into those same ditches.  Our only thin defense is that we ourselves felt the same hopelessness that is now befalling them and struck like children trying to affect some kind of power or control.

While you may or may not agree with any of this or none of this or even some of this, it is my hope that you will, at the very least, hopefully agree with me when I say, I don't want to spend the next (hopefully) 8 years arguing with the right about every little sniggly thing that they find fault with.

Obviously there is going to be disagreement and discord but, god dammit, do we have to spend 8 more years arguing over the minutiae of every statement that Obama makes and defending every statement Obama makes with equivocation and splitting the hairs of the meanings of words?

What has frustrated me over these last 8 years has been the total denial of any and all wrong-doing on the part of this out-going "administration" by its supporters and the absolute wills of steel regarding our perceptions of the situations and the validity of those perceptions.  I, for one, don't want to be like that.

The analogies and metaphors could be poured forth in how we've treated each other over the last 8 years but I'm not going to do that.  Let me state it plainly:  For all our yelling, cursing, pivoting, finger-pointing and differences in opinion, as Americans and more importantly, we on the left are no better than they are on the right.

It's their country, too.  If they vote, they have a right to complain and redress.  We can talk about everything that happens and mix it up, of course, but as the supporters of the Obama administration, we should take it upon ourselves to at least TRY to understand, defend if we must but not constantly hammer on each other without mercy.  Let's not blow our opportunity to be magnanimous in triumph.

I'm just sayin'.

Brass.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Looking forward and looking back
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2008, 12:01:22 AM »
I can agree with this. It seems to me that McCain is not nearly as nasty a campaigner as he could be. I recall Olebush wasting nearly all of his time blathering on and on about three issues that had little or no bearing on anything: Dukakis being a member of the ACLU, Dukakis vetoing a law requiring the pledge of allegiance in schools, and Dukakis turning Willie Horton loose.

Juniorbush's handlewrs were equally nasty in both 2000 and 2004, if not nastier.

I expect that Richpo will continue to regurgitate every morsel of bile that Rush and others spew. The best response is just to let him run his mouth. Nothing he says has any actual relationship with the truth.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."