DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: hnumpah on April 22, 2008, 08:42:21 PM
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Saw this on one a them comedy semi-news shows last night, Colbert, Olbermann, one a them guys, while they were discussing ABC's version of the debate last week.
Obama has Ted Kennedy's support. Ted Kennedy is Catholic. The Catholic church is led by the Pope. The Pope was a member of the Nazi Youth. Therefore, Obama has direct ties to Hitler.
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Wow ... another Nazi Pope remark.
Brilliant.
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The point wasn't about the Pope.
Does he have Waldheimer's disease?
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Right. Sure it wasn't.
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Note the title of the thread. The old geezer wasn't included. He is merely incidental to the story.
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So, its a big deal if Obama's preacher says "God damn Amerika!" but its somehow impolitic or inappropriate to mention that the current pope was in the Hitler youth?
Come on now. Fair's fair.
I'd say mentioning that is letting the catholic church off easy since it really should be shut down and half the people running it jailed for pedophilia and covering up for pedophiles.
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What's the difference between an evangelical christian and an evangelical atheist, again?
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What's the difference between an evangelical christian and an evangelical atheist, again?
I'm not evangelical. Evangelicals want you to believe in something it isn't real. I don't want that.
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What's the difference between an evangelical christian and an evangelical atheist, again?
I'm not evangelical. Evangelicals want you to believe in something it isn't real. I don't want that.
Have you given up on RBE then?
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I'm not evangelical. Evangelicals want you to believe in something it isn't real. I don't want that.
The RBE isn't real.
Besides, American Heritage Dictionary:
evangelical
adj.
Characterized by ardent or crusading enthusiasm; zealous: an evangelical liberal.
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Evangelicals want you to believe in something it isn't real.
Says the man who claims a missile hit the Pentagon.
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What's the difference between an evangelical christian and an evangelical atheist, again?
I'm not evangelical. Evangelicals want you to believe in something it isn't real. I don't want that.
Have you given up on RBE then?
The RBE is not a god. It's a political/resource system. No churches would be involved. The RBE is more like The Great Society. It's a plan, a system; not an imaginary friend out there in space who wants to make sure you use your pee pee for what he wants it to be used for.
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I'm not evangelical. Evangelicals want you to believe in something it isn't real. I don't want that.
The RBE isn't real.
Besides, American Heritage Dictionary:
evangelical
adj.
Characterized by ardent or crusading enthusiasm; zealous: an evangelical liberal.
Sure seems like cherry-picking on that definition there.
e?van?gel?i?cal Audio Help /ˌiv?nˈdʒɛlɪkəl, ˌɛvən-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ee-van-jel-i-kuhl, ev-uhn-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
?adjective
1. Also, e?van?gel?ic. pertaining to or in keeping with the gospel and its teachings.
2. belonging to or designating the Christian churches that emphasize the teachings and authority of the Scriptures, esp. of the New Testament, in opposition to the institutional authority of the church itself, and that stress as paramount the tenet that salvation is achieved by personal conversion to faith in the atonement of Christ.
3. designating Christians, esp. of the late 1970s, eschewing the designation of fundamentalist but holding to a conservative interpretation of the Bible.
4. pertaining to certain movements in the Protestant churches in the 18th and 19th centuries that stressed the importance of personal experience of guilt for sin, and of reconciliation to God through Christ.
5. marked by ardent or zealous enthusiasm for a cause.
?noun
6. an adherent of evangelical doctrines or a person who belongs to an evangelical church or party.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evangelical
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Evangelicals want you to believe in something it isn't real.
Says the man who claims a missile hit the Pentagon.
Actually, I would be considered an agnostic as far as a plane hitting the Pentagon. Just as I lean wholeheartedly towards natural selection (lots of proof) and away from "god did it" (0.0 proof), I have seen little to no proof that a plane hit the Pentagon therefore, I don't want to make a leap of faith based on self-interested "eyewitnesses".
The time has passed when I could even be swayed to belief in a plane/pentagon scenario since lots of fake videos could have been created in the nearly 7 years since the event in question.
I arrive at a missile based on what I have seen. A giant hole with bits of a plane that could have been carted in prior. No wing section. No tail section. Doctored photos after the even. Smells like conspiracy to me.
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5. marked by ardent or zealous enthusiasm for a cause.
This doesn't apply?
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the best evangilists in the world are drinkers who want a drinking buddy.
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Evangelicals want you to believe in something it isn't real.
Says the man who claims a missile hit the Pentagon.
:D
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Actually, I would be considered an agnostic as far as a plane hitting the Pentagon. Just as I lean wholeheartedly towards natural selection (lots of proof) and away from "god did it" (0.0 proof), I have seen little to no proof that a plane hit the Pentagon therefore, I don't want to make a leap of faith based on self-interested "eyewitnesses".
The time has passed when I could even be swayed to belief in a plane/pentagon scenario since lots of fake videos could have been created in the nearly 7 years since the event in question.
I arrive at a missile based on what I have seen. A giant hole with bits of a plane that could have been carted in prior. No wing section. No tail section. Doctored photos after the even. Smells like conspiracy to me.
Basically you reject the science and embrace the conspiracy theory. You want people to believe something that isn't true: that the science of the matter is impossible. Some folks sell intelligent design as way of explaining away the theory of evolution, something they cannot accept. You sell a different sort of intelligent design as a way of explaining away the science of what you cannot accept.
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I'm not evangelical. Evangelicals want you to believe in something it isn't real. I don't want that.
The RBE isn't real.
Besides, American Heritage Dictionary:
evangelical
adj.
Characterized by ardent or crusading enthusiasm; zealous: an evangelical liberal.
Though such usage is common, I doubt that you'd intended to imply that Modern liberalism is ever about good news.
evangelist - lit. "bringer of good news,"
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=evangelist
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Welcome MG!
I'm not evangelical. Evangelicals want you to believe in something it isn't real. I don't want that.
The RBE isn't real.
Besides, American Heritage Dictionary:
evangelical
adj.
Characterized by ardent or crusading enthusiasm; zealous: an evangelical liberal.
Though such usage is common, I doubt that you'd intended to imply that Modern liberalism is ever about good news.
evangelist - lit. "bringer of good news,"
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=evangelist
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5. marked by ardent or zealous enthusiasm for a cause.
This doesn't apply?
Of course, it does apply. That was exactly what I said. My point was that you were cherry=picking from the definition.
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Of course, it does apply. That was exactly what I said. My point was that you were cherry=picking from the definition.
It's not "cherry picking" - it's called using words properly, according to definition. Since most words have more than one definition, if any apply, it's a proper use of the word.
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So, its a big deal if Obama's preacher says "God damn Amerika!" but its somehow impolitic or inappropriate to mention that the current pope was in the Hitler youth?
Come on now. Fair's fair.
I'd say mentioning that is letting the catholic church off easy since it really should be shut down and half the people running it jailed for pedophilia and covering up for pedophiles.
Being in the Hitler Youth was not uncommon in the time, nor was it always a choice. The Pope is a good man and has made his views well known and public. I'd be far more concerned about the Italian right-wing who include some Fascists whose allegiance was freely chosen.
The Church has certainly been damaged by the pedophilia crisis, but one must be fair in observing it as well. The percentage of pedophilia priests was lower than that of the population as a whole. Moreover, this has been a problem in other churches as well, simply much less publicized. Still - that lets no one off the hook. The crisis is mainly in the American Catholic Church (though Ireland has had a problem as well). There are many controls in place now to prevent such a thing from taking place again.
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So, its a big deal if Obama's preacher says "God damn Amerika!" but its somehow impolitic or inappropriate to mention that the current pope was in the Hitler youth?
brassmass
the so called reverend wright said jesus damn america recently
the pope was a nazi over 60 years ago
you are insane if you think thats a close analogy
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I observe that the last four or five popes have been entirely against the death penalty.
Not one Catholic politician has been asked to renounce the Church because of this by pro-capital punishment opponents or pundits.
Pope Benedict is against 'consumer greed". How many mall managers have asked Catholic politicians to renounce him?
I think we can safely assume that no preacher is going to actually influence God to damn America, even if they play the sily tabe a bazillion times, and in stereo on Bose speakers.
However, capital punishment is clearly a life or death issue.
Consumer greed is what keeps every mall in America going.
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I observe that the last four or five popes have been entirely against the death penalty.
Not one Catholic politician has been asked to renounce the Church because of this by pro-capital punishment opponents or pundits.
Pope Benedict is against 'consumer greed". How many mall managers have asked Catholic politicians to renounce him?
I think we can safely assume that no preacher is going to actually influence God to damn America, even if they play the sily tabe a bazillion times, and in stereo on Bose speakers.
However, capital punishment is clearly a life or death issue.
Consumer greed is what keeps every mall in America going.
Very good points XO
The recent Popes have not looked favorably on capitalism in general, at least the free market type that many espouse in the west.
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The recent Popes have not looked favorably on capitalism in general
If thats true then maybe Rome should send back the weekly collections from the US
and just depend on the donations from places like Sudan. Yeah like thats gonna happen.
Those that live in glass (gold plated) houses shouldn't bite the hand that feeds. (millions)
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The recent Popes have not looked favorably on capitalism in general
If thats true then maybe Rome should send back the weekly collections from the US
and just depend on the donations from places like Sudan. Yeah like thats gonna happen.
Those that live in glass (gold plated) houses shouldn't bite the hand that feeds. (millions)
*sigh*
Judging from that response it isn't even worth replying to this.
1. No one lives in a "gold-plated" house.
2. The Church doesn't take mandates on morality by those who donate more money than those who do not. It does not work that way, and will never work that way.
3. The Church recognizes the dangers of unfettered capitalism as well as over manipulation by a Government.
I'm appalled that you'd view Christian morality in this way:
"Those that live in glass (gold plated) houses shouldn't bite the hand that feeds."
That's disgusting.
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The recent Popes have not looked favorably on capitalism in general
If thats true then maybe Rome should send back the weekly collections from the US
and just depend on the donations from places like Sudan. Yeah like thats gonna happen.
Those that live in glass (gold plated) houses shouldn't bite the hand that feeds. (millions)
*sigh*
Judging from that response it isn't even worth replying to this.
1. No one lives in a "gold-plated" house.
2. The Church doesn't take mandates on morality by those who donate more money than those who do not. It does not work that way, and will never work that way.
3. The Church recognizes the dangers of unfettered capitalism as well as over manipulation by a Government.
I'm appalled that you'd view Christian morality in this way:
"Those that live in glass (gold plated) houses shouldn't bite the hand that feeds."
That's disgusting.
The hypocracy is not the point , it is more likely ignornce than hypocracy anyway.
What excuses this ignorance? What is hidden form the churchmen that keeps them from knowing that their prosperity and the prosperity of the common man depends to a great degree on the freedom of the common man in commerce.
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"Those that live in glass (gold plated) houses shouldn't bite the hand that feeds."
That's disgusting.
"Disgusting" may be a bit harsh, but that is closer to how I see your apparent "blind allegiance" to men.
The Pope lives in opulence while the world starves.
Normally I would never bring up the Pope's luxuries.
I love the Pope and think they do great good in the world.
But if the Pope is actually "hammering capitalism" then his life of luxury becomes fair game.
It's just a tad bit irritating to hear someone condemning capitalism while they build/have private
indoor swimming pools and live a life of every possible convenience primarily provided by capitalism.
Kind of like Reverend Wright "condemning the US and Whitey" while he builds a brand new mansion
in a wealthy "Lily White" gated community.
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What is hidden form the churchmen that keeps them from knowing that their prosperity and the prosperity of the common man depends to a great degree on the freedom of the common man in commerce.
It's not the freedom of the common man in commerce that is the issue as much as the abuses by the wealthy and powerful. The question is then why do people think any of that is a result of unfettered capitalism, because that is not what we have here. We have a quite fettered capitalism, and not just because of government. Part of the problem with regulating the market and regulating businesses is that big corporations end up partnering with government to create regulations that favor themselves while leaving the smaller business owner and the common man in regulatory (and metaphorical) chains. Some people claim this a part of capitalism, and so they speak of the dangers of unfettered capitalism. I don't agree that this is part of capitalism. It's corporatism, and that is not proper capitalism. To unfetter capitalism would be, at least in part, to sever the corporatism partnerships between corporations and government that hinder the market, so in my opinion, unfettering capitalism would be beneficial. Anyway, my initial point here being that the Catholic Church's objection to unfettered capitalism is exactly about the prosperity and freedom of the common man, not an attempt to deny it.
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"Those that live in glass (gold plated) houses shouldn't bite the hand that feeds."
That's disgusting.
"Disgusting" may be a bit harsh, but that is closer to how I see your apparent "blind allegiance" to men.
The Pope lives in opulence while the world starves.
Normally I would never bring up the Pope's luxuries.
I love the Pope and think they do great good in the world.
But if the Pope is actually "hammering capitalism" then his life of luxury becomes fair game.
It's just a tad bit irritating to hear someone condemning capitalism while they build/have private
indoor swimming pools and live a life of every possible convenience primarily provided by capitalism.
Kind of like Reverend Wright "condemning the US and Whitey" while he builds a brand new mansion
in a wealthy "Lily White" gated community.
The Pope does not live in luxury. That is a common myth. He lives in a small apartment and owns almost nothing, or in the case of some Popes, literally nothing. That is an absolute falsehood.
The Pope does not hammer anything, but points out the problems of society and falling short of man living for love of God. Crass consumerism is not living for the love of God, would you not agree? Neither is abortion, capital punishment, euthenasia, or allowing the poor to starve.
The Church is not provided anything from capitalism. The Church predates most economic theories by centuries and many by over a millennia.
I don't have "blind allegiance" to men. If anything, I'd say that raising any economic theory to a place above (or on par with Him) God is certainly placing man at a far higher level than he deserves. I respect the Pope as a religious leader and very much a scholar. When he says "jump" do I jump? Of course not, that was anti-Catholic garbage from decades ago.
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Since CU4 used "if" I thought I'd better show some evidence:
Pope condemns excesses of capitalism in Americas document (http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/americas/9901/23/pope.future/)
Pope condemns dogmatic communism and capitalism (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/50480.stm)
From that
...resurgence of a certain capitalist neo-liberalism which subordinates the human person to blind market forces and often places unbearable burdens upon less favoured countries. We thus see a small number of countries growing exceedingly rich at the cost of increasing impoverishment of a great number of countries.
Pope Benedict XVI condemned capitalism and Marxism as "systems that marginalize God" (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/14/world/americas/14pope.html)
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The Pope does not live in luxury. That is a common myth. He lives in a small apartment and owns almost nothing, or in the case of some Popes, literally nothing. That is an absolute falsehood.
I guess "small apartment" depends on your viewpoint. The Papal Apartments consist of 10 large rooms, complete with a private medical facility, a private chapel, and a 20,000 volume library. It is the entire top floor of the building shown below.
(http://mysite.verizon.net/vze205pk/rome/vatican9.jpg)
Also, the pope has a "summer house," the Papal Palace at Castel Gandolfo (shown below).
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Castel_Gandolfo_BW_3.JPG/800px-Castel_Gandolfo_BW_3.JPG)
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The Pope does not live in luxury. That is a common myth. He lives in a small apartment and owns almost nothing, or in the case of some Popes, literally nothing. That is an absolute falsehood.
I guess "small apartment" depends on your viewpoint. The Papal Apartments consist of 10 large rooms, complete with a private medical facility, a private chapel, and a 20,000 volume library. It is the entire top floor of the building shown below.
(http://mysite.verizon.net/vze205pk/rome/vatican9.jpg)
Also, the pope has a "summer house," the Papal Palace at Castel Gandolfo (shown below).
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Castel_Gandolfo_BW_3.JPG/800px-Castel_Gandolfo_BW_3.JPG)
The Pope owns neither of those. The Church holds those properties and has for quite some time. What would you have the Church do with them?
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The Pope does not live in luxury.
JS are you insane? - LOL
The Pope doesn't live in luxury?
Relative to what?
I would imagine most in the world would consider his life a life of luxury.
You think that guy cooks many of his own meals?
You think most people have 24 hour a day servants at their residence?
You think most people have chapels inside their house?
Do most people have a residential study that overlooks Saint Peter's Square?
You think most people have roof top gardens?
You think most people have 24 hour access to a private indoor swimming pool at their residence?
You think most people have access to large jet airplanes to shuffle them all over the world?
You think most people have access to a 24/7 chauffeur?
Do you think he stays at Motel 6 when he travels?
Do you think he eats "left-overs"?
Do you think he writes out his checks for his personal bills and licks the envelope?
Do you think he goes grocery shopping and buys his own toilet paper?
Stands in long lines at Walmart?
Waits for tables at restaurants when there's a crowd?
Picks up his own newspaper off the curb?
Do you think he washes his own dishes?
You think most peope have access to multiple residences called the "Lateran Palace" & "Castel Gandolfo"?
Do most people have a medical doctor living at their residence for 24/7 needs?
Access to "summer residences"?
By any reasonable examination one must conclude the Pope lives a very privileged life.
BTW, I am not demonizing the man at all.
I am just responding to what I see as your fantasy land.
I don't have a problem with his life and his privilege.
It would be difficult in practical terms for him to live otherwise.
I think he does the world alot of good.
I am a fan.
That is a common myth. He lives in a small apartment and owns almost nothing, or in the case of some Popes, literally nothing. That is an absolute falsehood.
JS you can live in luxury and not be the owner.
If I live at the Bellagio, but someone else pays my bills, I still would be living in luxury.
The Pope does not hammer anything, but points out the problems of society and
falling short of man living for love of God.
I dont really have a problem with that.
Crass consumerism is not living for the love of God, would you not agree?
Well how do you define that?
It depends.
If I make ads for an ad agency that sells Starbucks Coffee and Starbucks Coffee Corp ends
up employing thousands of people at the retail and corporate level, providing jobs, security,
and income that helps send children to school, helps raise a family, creates wealth to fund
charities, and the company does charity work, hires handicapped people, tries to be
friendly to the environment, ect -- well I see that as a "good thing" - i see it as a "win win".
Some are called to be Mother Teresa down in the trenches others are called to create
inventions like MRI machines, others are called to create a business that helps people in some
way, which in turn can help charity.
The Church is not provided anything from capitalism.
Uh?
What system produced the telephone he uses daily?
What system produced the computer & software he uses?
What system produced the airplanes he flies on?
Ect..ect....
I doubt any of those things were innovated in North Korea!
Plus wealth produced in capitalist societies funds alot of Catholic Churches
Catholic Hospitals, Catholic Missionaries, Catholic Schools, Catholic Nursing Homes,
Catholic Charities. Again I doubt North Korea(example) can fund alot of
Catholic institutions that carry out the Church's work.
I don't have "blind allegiance" to men.
Again JS I have great respect for the Pope
although probably less than I have for Mother Teresa
but they have very different roles
both important
but if he thinks capitalism sucks
then i think he is dead wrong
in other words, because he says it, doesn't mean I believe it is so.
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The Pope owns neither of those. The Church holds those properties and has for quite some time.
"Living in luxury" does not require "ownership"; frequently rich people will live in houses "owned" by corporations.
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There is a minor controversy about whether Fidel Castro is wealthy or not.
In one sense he doesn't own much , hardly more than his clothes.
But in another sense every mite spent in Cuba is spent by his leave.
Thus he is definately either one of the worlds poorest people , or a member of the top five.
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The Pope does not live in luxury.
JS are you insane? - LOL
The Pope doesn't live in luxury?
Relative to what?
I would imagine most in the world would consider his life a life of luxury.
You think that guy cooks many of his own meals?
You think most people have 24 hour a day servants at their residence?
You think most people have chapels inside their house?
Do most people have a residential study that overlooks Saint Peter's Square?
You think most people have roof top gardens?
You think most people have 24 hour access to a private indoor swimming pool at their residence?
You think most people have access to large jet airplanes to shuffle them all over the world?
You think most people have access to a 24/7 chauffeur?
Do you think he stays at Motel 6 when he travels?
Do you think he eats "left-overs"?
Do you think he writes out his checks for his personal bills and licks the envelope?
Do you think he goes grocery shopping and buys his own toilet paper?
Stands in long lines at Walmart?
Waits for tables at restaurants when there's a crowd?
Picks up his own newspaper off the curb?
Do you think he washes his own dishes?
You think most peope have access to multiple residences called the "Lateran Palace" & "Castel Gandolfo"?
Do most people have a medical doctor living at their residence for 24/7 needs?
Access to "summer residences"?
By any reasonable examination one must conclude the Pope lives a very privileged life.
Oh, I think you most certainly are demonizing. The Pope flies on Air Italia (the state owned airlines) he does not have his own airplane like Air Force One. They call any flight he is on Shepherd One, but that is simply a moniker, the plane belongs to the airline and it changes each time he flies.
I didn't realize having a chapel inside your house is the mark of luxury. You do realize that he is a priest? Do you think most adults in the world have never had sexual intercourse, but instead devote their lives entirely to God? Your little comparison with what you consider to be "the common man" is moot because the life of any religious is far different than the life of most people. My local parish priest has a woman who cleans the house and cooks meals yet I doubt seriously that he is often accused of living in the lap of luxury.
Some of your other arguments are simply illogical. Of course most people don't have an apartment overlooking Saint Peter's Square. Simple spatial reasoning would dictate that most people could never have such a thing. I'd say that hardly qualifies anyone for being mega-wealthy.
More to the point, I'd bet you'd be amazed at the manual labor the Pope does do. Most religious are used to hard work, especially those from Monastic orders. How do you know the Pope does not eat left-overs? And so what if he has a doctor? Popes are typically elderly upon election to office and the Church provides them with medical assistance.
JS you can live in luxury and not be the owner.
And when the Pope dies, what will he leave in inheritance?
Uh?
What system produced the telephone he uses daily?
What system produced the computer & software he uses?
What system produced the airplanes he flies on?
Ect..ect....
I doubt any of those things were innovated in North Korea!
Seriously? That's your argument?? LOLOL
There was a Papacy long before any of that.
Plus wealth produced in capitalist societies funds alot of Catholic Churches
Catholic Hospitals, Catholic Missionaries, Catholic Schools, Catholic Nursing Homes,
Catholic Charities. Again I doubt North Korea(example) can fund alot of
Catholic institutions that carry out the Church's work.
The Church's work is God's work. Capitalism, or any economic system, is not necessary for it to succeed. There were missionaries, schools, and many other institutions of the Church long before and will be long after capitalism has come and gone as well as your beloved North Korea (example).
Again JS I have great respect for the Pope
although probably less than I have for Mother Teresa
but they have very different roles
both important
but if he thinks capitalism sucks
then i think he is dead wrong
in other words, because he says it, doesn't mean I believe it is so.
He says it because he understands the role of Christ in the world and the problems of society today. You and many people wish to elevate an invention of man to an exalted position. It has created a culture that fills a spiritual void with material possessions. Capitalism, crass consumerism, meterialism have proven to be as detrimental to spirituality as the Soviets ever were. It is simply as Nietzsche said it would be. Man has killed God and now you are replacing Him with something.
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The Pope owns neither of those. The Church holds those properties and has for quite some time.
"Living in luxury" does not require "ownership"; frequently rich people will live in houses "owned" by corporations.
But those rich people likely have ownership of some assets somehwere, don't they?
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But those rich people likely have ownership of some assets somehwere, don't they?
Many put all their assets into trusts to avoid inheritance taxes. They have control, but not ownership; similar to the pope.
So, do you have a 20,000 volume library in your "small apartment"?
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The apartment may be plain , but the lobby and courtyard of the condo are spectacular.
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Many put all their assets into trusts to avoid inheritance taxes. They have control, but not ownership; similar to the pope.
So they have no cash? I find that remarkable. They literally have no currency, no liquid assets at all?
So, do you have a 20,000 volume library in your "small apartment"?
Would that I did.
Eric Heffer was a Labour MP from Liverpool from the 60's to the early 90's. He was a true socialist and came from a working class background. He served the RAF in World War 2 and was a joiner by trade. He never made a great deal of money but was a true bibliophile and had over 12,000 books in the library of his small home.
1. Eric Heffer is a really amazing guy, you should check out his biography if you ever get a chance.
2. One does not have to be wealthy to have a large library and love of books.
3. The Church has had 2000 years to build a massive library. I'm guessing that 20,000 is nothing compared to the Vatican's entire collection.
4. Again, the Pope does not own these, he simply has access to them. Heffer owned his and he was by no means a wealthy man.
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To get back to the point here, notice what is being said.
The Pope cannot criticize (or should not) capitalism because the Church receives donations from capitalists.
That means that Christianity, or indeed any religious faith should be subordinate to the people who donate the most money. Am I the only one who finds that a very peculiar line of thought?
Basically that's saying that any religious institution is subordinate to the dominate economic system (and dominate donors or supporters) of the time. That isn't removing the moneychangers from the temple grounds, that's asking them how they believe the temple should be run.
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To get back to the point here, notice what is being said.
The Pope cannot criticize (or should not) capitalism because the Church receives donations from capitalists.
That means that Christianity, or indeed any religious faith should be subordinate to the people who donate the most money. Am I the only one who finds that a very peculiar line of thought?
Basically that's saying that any religious institution is subordinate to the dominate economic system (and dominate donors or supporters) of the time. That isn't removing the moneychangers from the temple grounds, that's asking them how they believe the temple should be run.
The local example of this quandry was the preachers in farming towns where all the cash came in from tobacco. They would once in a while speak up on the evils of tobacco , probly not as often as Preachers in areas that don't raise tobacco.
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Not that this is too far off topic, but does anyone have any issues with Obama's pastor having a brand new million+ dollar home being built in an affluent, largely caucasion, neighborhood, all the while he's ranting about how terrible and racist this country is?? He will own it
Personally, I don't. My issues with the good reverend revolve around his rhetoric, and not his residence, though the arguement can be made on how hypocritical he's being with his "Black Value system" and segregationist-like advocacy, by doing so
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The Pope cannot criticize (or should not) capitalism because the Church receives donations from capitalists.
Seems to me they are capitalists. They are selling their product (their brand of religion) to the masses, competing with the other brands (Baptists, Methodists, Buddhists, Muslims, whatever) to get the masses to buy into their spiel (us right, everyone else wrong) and donate money and property to their church.
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Oh, I think you most certainly are demonizing.
Not at all.
I am responding to your ridiculous claim.
I in fact have great respect for the Papacy, but I am not in denial that it involves great privilege.
The Pope flies on Air Italia (the state owned airlines) he does not have his own airplane like
Air Force One. They call any flight he is on Shepherd One, but that is simply a moniker, the plane
belongs to the airline and it changes each time he flies.
So JS are implying the Pope may fly coach like common folks?
Come on JS do you really think this is gonna fly? (no pun intended)
The poor ole Pope flies the State owned airline like everybody else uh?
Do you know JS most people in the world have never even been on an airplane?
The Pope has airplanes at his beck and call 24/7, most people dont.
I didn't realize having a chapel inside your house is the mark of luxury.
Well I would think most people have to drive or walk to a chapel
They dont have one in their house.
And I can imagine the Pope's chapel isn't some hole in the wall.
It's probably nice as hell.
You do realize that he is a priest?
Yeah....so?
The Pope lives in a huge palace.
He has servants 24/7
He is surrounded by priceless art work.
He has an indoor pool.
He has cooks.
He has chauffeurs.
He has a custom made vehicles.
I would assume he has his own tailor. I doubt he buys his outfits off the rack at Target.
He has three very nice residences, look at them, they are huge. Servants and staff at each one.
He has full time doctors at his beck and call
it goes on and on and on and on
and you pretend he is like some parish priest.
Do you think most adults in the world have never had sexual intercourse,
but instead devote their lives entirely to God?
So you are going to list things he gives up to somehow help the case that he
doesnt live in luxury?
Hey he doesnt have sex but he has three palaces, servants, indoor pool, ect
must mean he doesnt live in luxury?
So if I give up sex and work hard, but live at the Bellagio with private cooks, private pools,
chauffeurs, and have a "summer residence" I would not to be living a life of luxury?
Your little comparison with what you consider to be "the common man" is moot because the life of any religious is far different than the life of most people.
That is a change of subject.
Whether religious people have a different life does not have bearing on whether the Pope
lives a life of luxury and by any sane conclusion the Pope does live a life of luxury. He lives
considerbly better than most of the world.
My local parish priest has a woman who cleans the house and cooks meals yet I
doubt seriously that he is often accused of living in the lap of luxury.
Comparing the life of a local priest with the pope?
Yeah JS that is really a great analogy. ::)
Some of your other arguments are simply illogical.
Like what?
What is illogical about a single one?
You just dont like it because it exposes how weak your judgements about others are.
The Pope lives a hell of a lot better than most people in the world.
There are people starving while he swims in his indoor pool and summers at his "summer house".
That makes you uncomfortable.
Because you know deep down just like I do
"All Know The Way, But Few Walk It".
Of course most people don't have an apartment overlooking Saint Peter's Square. Simple spatial reasoning would dictate that most people could never have such a thing. I'd say that hardly qualifies anyone for being mega-wealthy.
Quit changing the bar.
I never said "wealthy".
He lives a life of luxury and privilege.
It doesnt matter why he lives where he does, the fact is, he does.
More to the point, I'd bet you'd be amazed at the manual labor the Pope does do.
Ronald Reagan lived a privileged life and chopped wood, so what?
President Bush lives a privileged life and cleans up his Crawford underbrush, so what?
Jimmy Carter lives a privileged life and builds houses for Habitat for Humanity, so what?
Because one does some manual labor does not mean they dont live a life of luxury.
Most religious are used to hard work, especially those from Monastic orders.
JS I never said the Pope sits around playing pac-man all day.
I am sure the man works very hard.
But working hard doesn't mean you dont live a life of luxury and privilege.
My brother is wealthy, lives in luxury, but he works his ass off.
How do you know the Pope does not eat left-overs?
Ya know JS I bet he does.
Yeah I bet he eats leftovers and meals about like the "average Joe" in Sudan, North Korea, Gaza, ect...
"hey father donovan, we're kinda broke today all we have is cold pizza leftovers"
Come one dude, get real!
And so what if he has a doctor? Popes are typically elderly upon election to office and the Church provides them with medical assistance.
Yeah so what?
I never said, and I dont think, there is anything wrong with any of the stuff i listed.
Sure he is old and I am glad he has a doctor.
Thats not the point.
The point is most elderly people dont get that kind of luxury & privilage.
JS you can live in luxury and not be the owner.
And when the Pope dies, what will he leave in inheritance?
Uh?
That makes no sense.
If I lived my life at the Ritz Carllton but someone else was paying the bills
then I finally died and left no inheritance
Would that mean I didn't live a life of luxury living at the Ritz Carlton?
Seriously? That's your argument?? LOLOL
There was a Papacy long before any of that.
Are you misundertsanding JS?
I am not saying the Papacy didnt exist before capitalism produced great inventions.
I am saying the Pope benefits by so many wonderful inventions that came out of capitalism.
In other words many of the luxuries the Pope uses daily are from capitalist societies.
The Church's work is God's work. Capitalism, or any economic system, is not necessary for it to succeed.
Agreed "not necessary", but if the Pope was still on a donkey it might be more difficult to have the same impact.
It's hard to fly earthquake charity relief to poverty stricken disaster areas when you have to ride a donkey.
It's hard to send an MRI machine to Sudan if it hasn't been invented.
There were missionaries, schools, and many other institutions of the Church long before and will be long after capitalism has come and gone as well as your beloved North Korea (example).
I know that JS
No one is denying the Pope could have still visited the US last month by taking a Mayflower type ship
But it's probably better he was able to fly across the ocean in a few hours on an airplane.
He says it because he understands the role of Christ in the world and the problems of society today.
He is a man that has views and I am a man that has my views.
He uses toilet paper just like I do.
He is a man. He appears to me to be a very good and decent man, but still a man.
There are men on earth that do just as much of God's work that he does.
You and many people wish to elevate an invention of man to an exalted position.
No, I just give credit where credit is do.
It has created a culture that fills a spiritual void with material possessions.
JS I have no spiritual void.
You assume so much about people you know very little about.
It's an arrogance.
It's "well they dont fit what I believe to be "the way" so they are "spiritually void".
But I do appreciate discussing it with you because I find you intelligent in ways that I am not.
I hope maybe to shed i tiny shred of light on your world that you dont see everyday.
I think you are in a rut, surrounded in doctrinaire and have become close minded on spirituality.
Capitalism, crass consumerism, meterialism have proven to be as detrimental to spirituality as the Soviets ever were. It is simply as Nietzsche said it would be. Man has killed God and now you are replacing Him with something.
And the other extreme is one could also argue (and I think wrongly) that poverty creates great need for spirituality
otherwise people would realize that the poverty was it, and there is nothing more than their sad situation.
They would be hopeless.
I tend to think liberalism has created a spiritualty void of sorts. (not capitalism)
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I tend to think liberalism has created a spiritualty void of sorts. (not capitalism)
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This would explain why Donald Trump and Paris Hilton are such avid churchgoers.
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So they have no cash? I find that remarkable. They literally have no currency, no liquid assets at all?
I know of at least two who do not. Anything that they wish to purchase is done through their trust. They own nothing and they earn nothing hence they pay no taxes.
4. Again, the Pope does not own these, he simply has access to them. Heffer owned his and he was by no means a wealthy man.
And none of this really denies the point that the pope lives in luxury.
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OK.
I'll bite. The Pope lives in luxury, at least compared with most people.
Yet, the argument was this:
The Pope lives in opulence while the world starves.
It was also mentioned that the Pope "should not bite the hand that feeds him."
So, I'll accept that I was wrong in saying that the Pope does not live in luxury. On the other hand, I do not accept the argument that religious leaders have their morality dictated by those who control the wealth, which is exactly what CU4 says above.
If that is the case, then certainly Marx (and many others) are correct. Religion is truly an empty and hollow shell owing its allegiance to the highest bidder. Morality is not objectively constructed from a higher being, but subjectively constructed from those with wealth, power, and influence.
Personally, I'm glad that the Pope has the chutzpah to criticize capitalism, Marxism, and other inventions of man that are often given status far above what they deserve.
I think you are in a rut, surrounded in doctrinaire and have become close minded on spirituality.
I would like to answer this one point.
I think that CU4, you tend to do exactly what you accuse me of, that is make personal assumptions. Indeed, I am a Catholic and very much love God, but there are many points were I disagree with the Church and especially Pope Benedict XVI. It is widely misunderstood that Catholics are free to form their own opinions and follow their own conscience with the exception of a few major points of theology (known as Dogma). Most of these are not in any conflict with most Christians, such as belief in the Holy Trinity, belief that Christ is the Son of God and was Incarnate as both divine and man. Some are more difficult for modern Protestants, such as belief that Mary was without sin and ever-virgin.
When it comes to Church teachings or Papal encyclicals, we are not sheep meant to bleat at every thing that comes from Saint Peter's. That is why some Catholics argue for female ordination and there are varying views on Purgatory.
For me, personally, I am a fan of the work of Fr. Gustavo Gutierez, Fr. Jon Sobrino, and Monsignor Oscar Romero. This Pope is not, but he cannot dictate my conscience to me.
You assume so much about people you know very little about. It's an arrogance.
I think that shows more of your defensiveness than my arrogance. Either that, or a miscommunication. I was speaking of society in general, not you in particular.
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I don't see that Rev Wright has take an oath of poverty, so his building his fancy house wherever he wants is completely legal, although it does seem to be a bit in bad taste, just as it is for all those televangelists. The Pope's finery also is in rather bad taste, but this is ameliorated somewhat because he has to wear silly clothing, including pants with frilly lace around the ankles and a hat that can ony be described as resembling a gigantic kangaroo phallis. I suppose God is responsible for these weird behaviors.