Obama and Hitler

[Universe Prince]

What is hidden form the churchmen that keeps them from knowing that their prosperity and the prosperity of the common man depends to a great degree on the freedom of the common man in commerce.

It's not the freedom of the common man in commerce that is the issue as much as the abuses by the wealthy and powerful. The question is then why do people think any of that is a result of unfettered capitalism, because that is not what we have here. We have a quite fettered capitalism, and not just because of government. Part of the problem with regulating the market and regulating businesses is that big corporations end up partnering with government to create regulations that favor themselves while leaving the smaller business owner and the common man in regulatory (and metaphorical) chains. Some people claim this a part of capitalism, and so they speak of the dangers of unfettered capitalism. I don't agree that this is part of capitalism. It's corporatism, and that is not proper capitalism. To unfetter capitalism would be, at least in part, to sever the corporatism partnerships between corporations and government that hinder the market, so in my opinion, unfettering capitalism would be beneficial. Anyway, my initial point here being that the Catholic Church's objection to unfettered capitalism is exactly about the prosperity and freedom of the common man, not an attempt to deny it.

[_JS]

"Those that live in glass (gold plated) houses shouldn't bite the hand that feeds."
That's disgusting.


"Disgusting" may be a bit harsh, but that is closer to how I see your apparent "blind allegiance" to men.
The Pope lives in opulence while the world starves.
Normally I would never bring up the Pope's luxuries.
I love the Pope and think they do great good in the world.
But if the Pope is actually "hammering capitalism" then his life of luxury becomes fair game.

It's just a tad bit irritating to hear someone condemning capitalism while they build/have private
indoor swimming pools and live a life of every possible convenience primarily provided by capitalism.

Kind of like Reverend Wright "condemning the US and Whitey" while he builds a brand new mansion
in a wealthy "Lily White" gated community.

The Pope does not live in luxury. That is a common myth. He lives in a small apartment and owns almost nothing, or in the case of some Popes, literally nothing. That is an absolute falsehood.

The Pope does not hammer anything, but points out the problems of society and falling short of man living for love of God. Crass consumerism is not living for the love of God, would you not agree? Neither is abortion, capital punishment, euthenasia, or allowing the poor to starve.

The Church is not provided anything from capitalism. The Church predates most economic theories by centuries and many by over a millennia.

I don't have "blind allegiance" to men. If anything, I'd say that raising any economic theory to a place above (or on par with Him) God is certainly placing man at a far higher level than he deserves. I respect the Pope as a religious leader and very much a scholar. When he says "jump" do I jump? Of course not, that was anti-Catholic garbage from decades ago.

[_JS]

Since CU4 used "if" I thought I'd better show some evidence:

Pope condemns excesses of capitalism in Americas document
Pope condemns dogmatic communism and capitalism

From that

...resurgence of a certain capitalist neo-liberalism which subordinates the human person to blind market forces and often places unbearable burdens upon less favoured countries. We thus see a small number of countries growing exceedingly rich at the cost of increasing impoverishment of a great number of countries.

Pope Benedict XVI condemned capitalism and Marxism as "systems that marginalize God"

 

[Amianthus]

The Pope does not live in luxury. That is a common myth. He lives in a small apartment and owns almost nothing, or in the case of some Popes, literally nothing. That is an absolute falsehood.

I guess "small apartment" depends on your viewpoint. The Papal Apartments consist of 10 large rooms, complete with a private medical facility, a private chapel, and a 20,000 volume library. It is the entire top floor of the building shown below.



Also, the pope has a "summer house," the Papal Palace at Castel Gandolfo (shown below).

[_JS]

The Pope does not live in luxury. That is a common myth. He lives in a small apartment and owns almost nothing, or in the case of some Popes, literally nothing. That is an absolute falsehood.

I guess "small apartment" depends on your viewpoint. The Papal Apartments consist of 10 large rooms, complete with a private medical facility, a private chapel, and a 20,000 volume library. It is the entire top floor of the building shown below.



Also, the pope has a "summer house," the Papal Palace at Castel Gandolfo (shown below).

The Pope owns neither of those. The Church holds those properties and has for quite some time. What would you have the Church do with them?

[Christians4LessGvt]

The Pope does not live in luxury.

JS are you insane? - LOL
The Pope doesn't live in luxury?
Relative to what?
I would imagine most in the world would consider his life a life of luxury.
You think that guy cooks many of his own meals?
You think most people have 24 hour a day servants at their residence?
You think most people have chapels inside their house?
Do most people have a residential study that overlooks Saint Peter's Square?
You think most people have roof top gardens?
You think most people have 24 hour access to a private indoor swimming pool at their residence?
You think most people have access to large jet airplanes to shuffle them all over the world?
You think most people have access to a 24/7 chauffeur?
Do you think he stays at Motel 6 when he travels?
Do you think he eats "left-overs"?
Do you think he writes out his checks for his personal bills and licks the envelope?
Do you think he goes grocery shopping and buys his own toilet paper?
Stands in long lines at Walmart?
Waits for tables at restaurants when there's a crowd?
Picks up his own newspaper off the curb?
Do you think he washes his own dishes?
You think most peope have access to multiple residences called the "Lateran Palace" & "Castel Gandolfo"?
Do most people have a medical doctor living at their residence for 24/7 needs?
Access to "summer residences"?
By any reasonable examination one must conclude the Pope lives a very privileged life.

BTW, I am not demonizing the man at all.
I am just responding to what I see as your fantasy land.
I don't have a problem with his life and his privilege.
It would be difficult in practical terms for him to live otherwise.
I think he does the world alot of good.
I am a fan.

That is a common myth. He lives in a small apartment and owns almost nothing, or in the case of some Popes, literally nothing. That is an absolute falsehood.

JS you can live in luxury and not be the owner.
If I live at the Bellagio, but someone else pays my bills, I still would be living in luxury.

The Pope does not hammer anything, but points out the problems of society and
falling short of man living for love of God.

I dont really have a problem with that.

Crass consumerism is not living for the love of God, would you not agree?

Well how do you define that?

It depends.

If I make ads for an ad agency that sells Starbucks Coffee and Starbucks Coffee Corp ends
up employing thousands of people at the retail and corporate level, providing jobs, security,
and income that helps send children to school, helps raise a family, creates wealth to fund
charities, and the company does charity work, hires handicapped people, tries to be
friendly to the environment, ect -- well I see that as a "good thing" - i see it as a "win win".
Some are called to be Mother Teresa down in the trenches others are called to create
inventions like MRI machines, others are called to create a business that helps people in some
way, which in turn can help charity.


The Church is not provided anything from capitalism.

Uh?
What system produced the telephone he uses daily?
What system produced the computer & software he uses?
What system produced the airplanes he flies on?
Ect..ect....
I doubt any of those things were innovated in North Korea!

Plus wealth produced in capitalist societies funds alot of Catholic Churches
Catholic Hospitals, Catholic Missionaries, Catholic Schools, Catholic Nursing Homes,
Catholic Charities. Again I doubt North Korea(example) can fund alot of
Catholic institutions that carry out the Church's work.

I don't have "blind allegiance" to men.

Again JS I have great respect for the Pope
although probably less than I have for Mother Teresa
but they have very different roles
both important
but if he thinks capitalism sucks
then i think he is dead wrong
in other words, because he says it, doesn't mean I believe it is so.

[Amianthus]

The Pope owns neither of those. The Church holds those properties and has for quite some time.

"Living in luxury" does not require "ownership"; frequently rich people will live in houses "owned" by corporations.

[Plane]

There is a minor controversy about whether Fidel Castro is wealthy or not.

In one sense he doesn't own much , hardly more than his clothes.

But in another sense every mite spent in Cuba is spent by his leave.

Thus he is definately either one of the worlds poorest people , or a member of the top five.

[_JS]

The Pope does not live in luxury.

JS are you insane? - LOL
The Pope doesn't live in luxury?
Relative to what?
I would imagine most in the world would consider his life a life of luxury.
You think that guy cooks many of his own meals?
You think most people have 24 hour a day servants at their residence?
You think most people have chapels inside their house?
Do most people have a residential study that overlooks Saint Peter's Square?
You think most people have roof top gardens?
You think most people have 24 hour access to a private indoor swimming pool at their residence?
You think most people have access to large jet airplanes to shuffle them all over the world?
You think most people have access to a 24/7 chauffeur?
Do you think he stays at Motel 6 when he travels?
Do you think he eats "left-overs"?
Do you think he writes out his checks for his personal bills and licks the envelope?
Do you think he goes grocery shopping and buys his own toilet paper?
Stands in long lines at Walmart?
Waits for tables at restaurants when there's a crowd?
Picks up his own newspaper off the curb?
Do you think he washes his own dishes?
You think most peope have access to multiple residences called the "Lateran Palace" & "Castel Gandolfo"?
Do most people have a medical doctor living at their residence for 24/7 needs?
Access to "summer residences"?
By any reasonable examination one must conclude the Pope lives a very privileged life.

Oh, I think you most certainly are demonizing. The Pope flies on Air Italia (the state owned airlines) he does not have his own airplane like Air Force One. They call any flight he is on Shepherd One, but that is simply a moniker, the plane belongs to the airline and it changes each time he flies.

I didn't realize having a chapel inside your house is the mark of luxury. You do realize that he is a priest? Do you think most adults in the world have never had sexual intercourse, but instead devote their lives entirely to God? Your little comparison with what you consider to be "the common man" is moot because the life of any religious is far different than the life of most people. My local parish priest has a woman who cleans the house and cooks meals yet I doubt seriously that he is often accused of living in the lap of luxury.

Some of your other arguments are simply illogical. Of course most people don't have an apartment overlooking Saint Peter's Square. Simple spatial reasoning would dictate that most people could never have such a thing. I'd say that hardly qualifies anyone for being mega-wealthy.

More to the point, I'd bet you'd be amazed at the manual labor the Pope does do. Most religious are used to hard work, especially those from Monastic orders. How do you know the Pope does not eat left-overs? And so what if he has a doctor? Popes are typically elderly upon election to office and the Church provides them with medical assistance.

JS you can live in luxury and not be the owner.

And when the Pope dies, what will he leave in inheritance?

Uh?
What system produced the telephone he uses daily?
What system produced the computer & software he uses?
What system produced the airplanes he flies on?
Ect..ect....
I doubt any of those things were innovated in North Korea!

Seriously? That's your argument?? LOLOL

There was a Papacy long before any of that.

Plus wealth produced in capitalist societies funds alot of Catholic Churches
Catholic Hospitals, Catholic Missionaries, Catholic Schools, Catholic Nursing Homes,
Catholic Charities. Again I doubt North Korea(example) can fund alot of
Catholic institutions that carry out the Church's work.

The Church's work is God's work. Capitalism, or any economic system, is not necessary for it to succeed. There were missionaries, schools, and many other institutions of the Church long before and will be long after capitalism has come and gone as well as your beloved North Korea (example).

Again JS I have great respect for the Pope
although probably less than I have for Mother Teresa
but they have very different roles
both important
but if he thinks capitalism sucks
then i think he is dead wrong
in other words, because he says it, doesn't mean I believe it is so.

He says it because he understands the role of Christ in the world and the problems of society today. You and many people wish to elevate an invention of man to an exalted position. It has created a culture that fills a spiritual void with material possessions. Capitalism, crass consumerism, meterialism have proven to be as detrimental to spirituality as the Soviets ever were. It is simply as Nietzsche said it would be. Man has killed God and now you are replacing Him with something.

[_JS]

The Pope owns neither of those. The Church holds those properties and has for quite some time.

"Living in luxury" does not require "ownership"; frequently rich people will live in houses "owned" by corporations.

But those rich people likely have ownership of some assets somehwere, don't they?

[Amianthus]

But those rich people likely have ownership of some assets somehwere, don't they?

Many put all their assets into trusts to avoid inheritance taxes. They have control, but not ownership; similar to the pope.

So, do you have a 20,000 volume library in your "small apartment"?

[Plane]

The apartment may be plain , but the lobby and courtyard of the condo are spectacular.

[_JS]

Many put all their assets into trusts to avoid inheritance taxes. They have control, but not ownership; similar to the pope.

So they have no cash? I find that remarkable. They literally have no currency, no liquid assets at all?

So, do you have a 20,000 volume library in your "small apartment"?

Would that I did.

Eric Heffer was a Labour MP from Liverpool from the 60's to the early 90's. He was a true socialist and came from a working class background. He served the RAF in World War 2 and was a joiner by trade. He never made a great deal of money but was a true bibliophile and had over 12,000 books in the library of his small home.

1. Eric Heffer is a really amazing guy, you should check out his biography if you ever get a chance.
2. One does not have to be wealthy to have a large library and love of books.
3. The Church has had 2000 years to build a massive library. I'm guessing that 20,000 is nothing compared to the Vatican's entire collection.
4. Again, the Pope does not own these, he simply has access to them. Heffer owned his and he was by no means a wealthy man.

[_JS]

To get back to the point here, notice what is being said.

The Pope cannot criticize (or should not) capitalism because the Church receives donations from capitalists.

That means that Christianity, or indeed any religious faith should be subordinate to the people who donate the most money. Am I the only one who finds that a very peculiar line of thought?

Basically that's saying that any religious institution is subordinate to the dominate economic system (and dominate donors or supporters) of the time. That isn't removing the moneychangers from the temple grounds, that's asking them how they believe the temple should be run.

[Plane]

To get back to the point here, notice what is being said.

The Pope cannot criticize (or should not) capitalism because the Church receives donations from capitalists.

That means that Christianity, or indeed any religious faith should be subordinate to the people who donate the most money. Am I the only one who finds that a very peculiar line of thought?

Basically that's saying that any religious institution is subordinate to the dominate economic system (and dominate donors or supporters) of the time. That isn't removing the moneychangers from the temple grounds, that's asking them how they believe the temple should be run.

The local example of this quandry was the preachers in farming towns where all the cash came in from tobacco. They would once in a while speak up on the evils of tobacco , probly not as often as Preachers in areas that don't raise tobacco.