Obama and Hitler

[sirs]

Not that this is too far off topic, but does anyone have any issues with Obama's pastor having a brand new million+ dollar home being built in an affluent, largely caucasion, neighborhood, all the while he's ranting about how terrible and racist this country is??  He will own it

Personally, I don't.  My issues with the good reverend revolve around his rhetoric, and not his residence, though the arguement can be made on how hypocritical he's being with his "Black Value system" and segregationist-like advocacy, by doing so

[hnumpah]

The Pope cannot criticize (or should not) capitalism because the Church receives donations from capitalists.

Seems to me they are capitalists. They are selling their product (their brand of religion) to the masses, competing with the other brands (Baptists, Methodists, Buddhists, Muslims, whatever) to get the masses to buy into their spiel (us right, everyone else wrong) and donate money and property to their church.

[Christians4LessGvt]

Oh, I think you most certainly are demonizing.

Not at all.
I am responding to your ridiculous claim.
I in fact have great respect for the Papacy, but I am not in denial that it involves great privilege.

The Pope flies on Air Italia (the state owned airlines) he does not have his own airplane like
Air Force One. They call any flight he is on Shepherd One, but that is simply a moniker, the plane
belongs to the airline and it changes each time he flies.

So JS are implying the Pope may fly coach like common folks?
Come on JS do you really think this is gonna fly? (no pun intended)
The poor ole Pope flies the State owned airline like everybody else uh?
Do you know JS most people in the world have never even been on an airplane?
The Pope has airplanes at his beck and call 24/7, most people dont.

I didn't realize having a chapel inside your house is the mark of luxury.

Well I would think most people have to drive or walk to a chapel
They dont have one in their house.
And I can imagine the Pope's chapel isn't some hole in the wall.
It's probably nice as hell.

You do realize that he is a priest?

Yeah....so?
The Pope lives in a huge palace.
He has servants 24/7
He is surrounded by priceless art work.
He has an indoor pool.
He has cooks.
He has chauffeurs.
He has a custom made vehicles.
I would assume he has his own tailor. I doubt he buys his outfits off the rack at Target.
He has three very nice residences, look at them, they are huge. Servants and staff at each one.
He has full time doctors at his beck and call
it goes on and on and on and on
and you pretend he is like some parish priest.

Do you think most adults in the world have never had sexual intercourse,
but instead devote their lives entirely to God?

So you are going to list things he gives up to somehow help the case that he
doesnt live in luxury?

Hey he doesnt have sex but he has three palaces, servants, indoor pool, ect
must mean he doesnt live in luxury?

So if I give up sex and work hard, but live at the Bellagio with private cooks, private pools,
chauffeurs, and have a "summer residence" I would not to be living a life of luxury?

Your little comparison with what you consider to be "the common man" is moot because the life of any religious is far different than the life of most people.

That is a change of subject.
Whether religious people have a different life does not have bearing on whether the Pope
lives a life of luxury and by any sane conclusion the Pope does live a life of luxury. He lives
considerbly better than most of the world.

My local parish priest has a woman who cleans the house and cooks meals yet I
doubt seriously that he is often accused of living in the lap of luxury.

Comparing the life of a local priest with the pope?
Yeah JS that is really a great analogy.  

Some of your other arguments are simply illogical.

Like what?
What is illogical about a single one?
You just dont like it because it exposes how weak your judgements about others are.
The Pope lives a hell of a lot better than most people in the world.
There are people starving while he swims in his indoor pool and summers at his "summer house".
That makes you uncomfortable.
Because you know deep down just like I do
"All Know The Way, But Few Walk It".

Of course most people don't have an apartment overlooking Saint Peter's Square. Simple spatial reasoning would dictate that most people could never have such a thing. I'd say that hardly qualifies anyone for being mega-wealthy.

Quit changing the bar.
I never said "wealthy".
He lives a life of luxury and privilege.
It doesnt matter why he lives where he does, the fact is, he does.

More to the point, I'd bet you'd be amazed at the manual labor the Pope does do.

Ronald Reagan lived a privileged life and chopped wood, so what?
President Bush lives a privileged life and cleans up his Crawford underbrush, so what?
Jimmy Carter lives a privileged life and builds houses for Habitat for Humanity, so what?
Because one does some manual labor does not mean they dont live a life of luxury.
 
Most religious are used to hard work, especially those from Monastic orders.
 
JS I never said the Pope sits around playing pac-man all day.
I am sure the man works very hard.
But working hard doesn't mean you dont live a life of luxury and privilege.
My brother is wealthy, lives in luxury, but he works his ass off.

How do you know the Pope does not eat left-overs?

Ya know JS I bet he does.
Yeah I bet he eats leftovers and meals about like the "average Joe" in Sudan, North Korea, Gaza, ect...
"hey father donovan, we're kinda broke today all we have is cold pizza leftovers"
Come one dude, get real!

And so what if he has a doctor? Popes are typically elderly upon election to office and the Church provides them with medical assistance.

Yeah so what?
I never said, and I dont think, there is anything wrong with any of the stuff i listed.
Sure he is old and I am glad he has a doctor.
Thats not the point.
The point is most elderly people dont get that kind of luxury & privilage.

JS you can live in luxury and not be the owner.
And when the Pope dies, what will he leave in inheritance?

Uh?
That makes no sense.
If I lived my life at the Ritz Carllton but someone else was paying the bills
then I finally died and left no inheritance
Would that mean I didn't live a life of luxury living at the Ritz Carlton?

Seriously? That's your argument?? LOLOL
There was a Papacy long before any of that.

Are you misundertsanding JS?
I am not saying the Papacy didnt exist before capitalism produced great inventions.
I am saying the Pope benefits by so many wonderful inventions that came out of capitalism.
In other words many of the luxuries the Pope uses daily are from capitalist societies.

The Church's work is God's work. Capitalism, or any economic system, is not necessary for it to succeed.

Agreed "not necessary", but if the Pope was still on a donkey it might be more difficult to have the same impact.

It's hard to fly earthquake charity relief to poverty stricken disaster areas when you have to ride a donkey.
It's hard to send an MRI machine to Sudan if it hasn't been invented.

There were missionaries, schools, and many other institutions of the Church long before and will be long after capitalism has come and gone as well as your beloved North Korea (example).

I know that JS
No one is denying the Pope could have still visited the US last month by taking a Mayflower type ship
But it's probably better he was able to fly across the ocean in a few hours on an airplane.

He says it because he understands the role of Christ in the world and the problems of society today.

He is a man that has views and I am a man that has my views.
He uses toilet paper just like I do.
He is a man. He appears to me to be a very good and decent man, but still a man.
There are men on earth that do just as much of God's work that he does.

You and many people wish to elevate an invention of man to an exalted position.

No, I just give credit where credit is do.

It has created a culture that fills a spiritual void with material possessions.

JS I have no spiritual void.
You assume so much about people you know very little about.
It's an arrogance.
It's "well they dont fit what I believe to be "the way" so they are "spiritually void".
But I do appreciate discussing it with you because I find you intelligent in ways that I am not.
I hope maybe to shed i tiny shred of light on your world that you dont see everyday.
I think you are in a rut, surrounded in doctrinaire and have become close minded on spirituality.

Capitalism, crass consumerism, meterialism have proven to be as detrimental to spirituality as the Soviets ever were. It is simply as Nietzsche said it would be. Man has killed God and now you are replacing Him with something.

And the other extreme is one could also argue (and I think wrongly) that poverty creates great need for spirituality
otherwise people would realize that the poverty was it, and there is nothing more than their sad situation.
They would be hopeless.
I tend to think liberalism has created a spiritualty void of sorts. (not capitalism)
 
 

[Xavier_Onassis]

I tend to think liberalism has created a spiritualty void of sorts. (not capitalism)

=================================================================
This would explain why Donald Trump and Paris Hilton are such avid churchgoers.

[Amianthus]

So they have no cash? I find that remarkable. They literally have no currency, no liquid assets at all?

I know of at least two who do not. Anything that they wish to purchase is done through their trust. They own nothing and they earn nothing hence they pay no taxes.

4. Again, the Pope does not own these, he simply has access to them. Heffer owned his and he was by no means a wealthy man.

And none of this really denies the point that the pope lives in luxury.

[_JS]

OK.

I'll bite. The Pope lives in luxury, at least compared with most people.

Yet, the argument was this:

The Pope lives in opulence while the world starves.

It was also mentioned that the Pope "should not bite the hand that feeds him."

So, I'll accept that I was wrong in saying that the Pope does not live in luxury. On the other hand, I do not accept the argument that religious leaders have their morality dictated by those who control the wealth, which is exactly what CU4 says above.

If that is the case, then certainly Marx (and many others) are correct. Religion is truly an empty and hollow shell owing its allegiance to the highest bidder. Morality is not objectively constructed from a higher being, but subjectively constructed from those with wealth, power, and influence.

Personally, I'm glad that the Pope has the chutzpah to criticize capitalism, Marxism, and other inventions of man that are often given status far above what they deserve.

I think you are in a rut, surrounded in doctrinaire and have become close minded on spirituality.

I would like to answer this one point.

I think that CU4, you tend to do exactly what you accuse me of, that is make personal assumptions. Indeed, I am a Catholic and very much love God, but there are many points were I disagree with the Church and especially Pope Benedict XVI. It is widely misunderstood that Catholics are free to form their own opinions and follow their own conscience with the exception of a few major points of theology (known as Dogma). Most of these are not in any conflict with most Christians, such as belief in the Holy Trinity, belief that Christ is the Son of God and was Incarnate as both divine and man. Some are more difficult for modern Protestants, such as belief that Mary was without sin and ever-virgin.

When it comes to Church teachings or Papal encyclicals, we are not sheep meant to bleat at every thing that comes from Saint Peter's. That is why some Catholics argue for female ordination and there are varying views on Purgatory.

For me, personally, I am a fan of the work of Fr. Gustavo Gutierez, Fr. Jon Sobrino, and Monsignor Oscar Romero. This Pope is not, but he cannot dictate my conscience to me.

You assume so much about people you know very little about. It's an arrogance.

I think that shows more of your defensiveness than my arrogance. Either that, or a miscommunication. I was speaking of society in general, not you in particular.

[Xavier_Onassis]

I don't see that Rev Wright has take an oath of poverty, so his building his fancy house wherever he wants is completely legal, although it does seem to be a bit in bad taste, just as it is for all those televangelists. The Pope's finery also is in rather bad taste, but this is ameliorated somewhat because he has to wear silly clothing, including pants with frilly lace around the ankles and a hat that can ony be described as resembling a gigantic kangaroo phallis.  I suppose God is responsible for these weird behaviors.