Author Topic: Simple Truths  (Read 5833 times)

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Plane

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Re: Simple Truths
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2008, 07:15:51 PM »
<<Just one [reason to vote for McCain]?

<<His war heroism?>>

If I'm not mistaken, Kerrey had more medals than McCain, so according to your reasoning, more reasons to vote for Kerrey than McCain.

Besides, he doesn't sound so heroic to me.  Drops napalm, probably on civilian targets.  Never has to face aerial combat with other jets.  Basically bombing Third World people without a functioning air force to protect them.  Gets shot down, spills his guts out to the "enemy" and even makes propaganda broadcasts for them, then comes home and concocts some phony story about being "tortured" which even his own jailer, finally located in Viet Nam, has denied.  Presumably because both his father and grandfather were U.S. admirals, he was never court-martialed for his antics.

You're gonna make me sick.  I lived next door to a REAL war hero.  And I am honoured to have as a friend, a former Royal Marine Commando, who served in three theatres of operations in WWII and could write a fucking book.  Do me a big favour, please:  DON'T mention McCain and war heroism in the same sentence, OK?


I wouldn't ,if I thought that any of that were true.

If your friend who served in WWII had been captured would you have lost all respect for him?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Simple Truths
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2008, 08:11:51 PM »
George Santana is a musician, and this quote predates him. I think you mean George Santayana, the philosopher.

====================================
CARLOS Santana is the musician, at least the most popular of the Santanas, if there are more than one.

GEORGE SANTAYANA is the philosopher.

So you are sort of correct.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Amianthus

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Re: Simple Truths
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2008, 08:21:11 PM »
CARLOS Santana is the musician, at least the most popular of the Santanas, if there are more than one.

His brother. Plays guitar.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

richpo64

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Re: Simple Truths
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2008, 09:27:16 PM »
>>Sure.  Take a REAL good look.<<

Your venom is much appreciated. There are dozens of people (guests) reading this forum every day. They can judge for themselves.

richpo64

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Re: Simple Truths
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2008, 09:32:21 PM »
>> The old fart still insists that Vietnam was a noble and winnable cause.<<

The Vietnam war was winnable. History has born that out. Democrats not only lost the war, they are directly responsible for the deaths of over 2 million Cambodians and Vietnamese.

They want to do it again.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Simple Truths
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2008, 09:52:08 PM »
NO WAY they could have won Vietnam without dripping the nukes.

By 1969, they could not draft enough men to keep it going. They would have had to arrest draftees to keep the slaughter going.

By the time of the Tet offensive, Americans were convinced that it was a waste of lives, time and money. And they were RIGHT.

There was no reason to get involved in the first place. Just like Iraq.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

richpo64

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Re: Simple Truths
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2008, 10:10:18 PM »
>>NO WAY they could have won Vietnam without dripping the nukes.<<

Once again, you’re wrong. The Vietcong were ready to surrender on several occasions. Particularly after Nixon launched his bombing campaign. Had we been serious about waging war, Dien Bien Phu was another opportunity to win it. That was before we were more than lightly committed, but it could have ended right there. This is simple history. You should try and learn some.

>>By 1969, they could not draft enough men to keep it going. They would have had to arrest draftees to keep the slaughter going.<<

1969? Once again, you’re way off base here. But then, you’re making it up as you go along I suppose. There was never a shortage of troops. I can only image you’re once again making it up.

>>By the time of the Tet offensive, Americans were convinced that it was a waste of lives, time and money. And they were RIGHT.<<

The Tet offensive was a disaster for the North Vietnamese. Only through the rewriting of history is Tet mistakenly seen as an American defeat. Had the political will been there, America could have won the war then. It wasn’t to be though. Democrats and the peace movement (otherwise known as the “get laid” movement) put an end to that.

>>There was no reason to get involved in the first place. Just like Iraq.<<

Once again history proves otherwise. The millions of death after America left are a bloody testament to that.



Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Simple Truths
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2008, 10:14:09 PM »
The Tet offensive was a disaster for the North Vietnamese. Only through the rewriting of history is Tet mistakenly seen as an American defeat. Had the political will been there, America could have won the war then. It wasn’t to be though. Democrats and the peace movement (otherwise known as the “get laid” movement) put an end to that.

>>There was no reason to get involved in the first place. Just like Iraq.<<

Once again history proves otherwise. The millions of death after America left are a bloody testament to that.
===================================
History proves no such thing.

If there had been elections as were scheduled at the accords with the French, the entire matter would have been resolved without bloodshed.

The US has no business getting involved in civil warts in other countries

Not then.

Not now.

And you are dead wrong about Tet. After Tet, the number of draft ages Americans running for the borders and just getting lost made it impossible to draft enough to keep it going.

McCain is wrong, you are wrong. Time to put all that Vietnam crap behind us.





"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

richpo64

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Re: Simple Truths
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2008, 10:18:26 PM »
Take This and Run
Ten things the McCain campaign needs to do to win.

By Lisa Schiffren
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YWM3YTNhNjYyNjczMWI4NGVhYzU0OWQyZTAxNTk1OWU=

At this point, the McCain campaign’s goal should be to raise doubts about Obama’s trustworthiness, and thus ability to lead. This will require a strategy and a tactic.

The campaign’s strategy should be to attack from all directions: character, past associations, political practice in Chicago, “present” votes, lack of a record of accomplishment. It should question what it means for a law professor to leave no academic paper trail, yet produce two well-written autobiographies.

Tactically, it should have Sarah Palin and surrogates — Giuliani, Gingrich, Romney, Pawlenty, Crist, and Sanford — blast away from a few different angles a day. Have the articulate ones make complete, coherent cases on each issue.

Make Barack Obama defend himself, fill in the mysterious gaps, and list concrete outcomes from his work. We shall see how much grace he brings to that situation. Attack hard enough to make the American people pay attention. Any wavering voter should know the reasons that a vote for Obama is a risk, and they should know what it guarantees.

McCain must rise to this moment and be crystal clear about his future economic policy. And it has to be good. Let people know he understand the pain we are all facing together. Because making voters wary of Obama, which they have resisted pretty strenuously heretofore, doesn’t get them to the polls for the Republican candidate.

Here are ten suggestions for the campaign:

 

1: The economy. Democrats are blaming the current crisis — the one requiring the now-$800 billion bailout — on McCain’s aversion to regulation. Explain the difference between more regulations and useful regulations. Explain that all the regulations in the world, applied to financial institutions, won’t help if government policy mandates that banks issue mortgages to people who can’t repay them. Explain who wanted so badly to expand homeownership, and why, and who benefitted from the work of Freddie and Fannie. List the top three recipients of Freddie and Fannie’s campaign donations.
 

That’s the history. Here is the abstract point to move to: Obama and his allies truly, deeply believe that markets are bad, and a small group of smart, good-hearted people — them — should be running things. The smart people had the good intentions of having the poor own homes. So they overrode traditional banking norms, which they called racist. Now we are all paying for their leftist ideology. For a real fight, mention the Community Reinvestment Act. Ask what happens in the near future when the “A team” — Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Charles Rangel, Barney Frank, and Barack Obama — are in charge of the economy, during the coming recession.

Don’t sugar-coat the economic situation. If McCain wins, he presides over tough times.

 

2: Taxes. Contrast McCain’s tax policies with Obama’s by explaining the difference between letting people (and businesses) keep their own money, and giving them benefits at taxpayer expense. The former is what it means to have economic freedom. The latter is a real cost to taxpayers. McCain would not “spend” $300 million dollars, as Obama alleges, by failing to confiscate $300 million from businesses or individuals.


Also explain that Barack Obama’s tax ”cuts” for the poor consist of straightforward, massive redistribution of taxpayer dollars to people who already are not required to pay taxes. Hammer the point that only about 60 percent of American earners even pay taxes. Taxes for the working poor are called the Earned Income Tax Credit, which is the opposite of a tax. Cite statistics indicating that decided “tax recipients” are pro-Obama, support higher taxes for those who pay, and want bigger checks.

Ask why Barack Obama wants to make us all wards of the state, with state health care. Is this a good moment to embrace 20th Century Socialism Lite, even if we are facing a year or two of belt tightening? Shouldn’t the future be freer, with less state interference in our lives? And on the matter of the recession we are facing — explain in language a 10-year-old can understand that we will get through it faster if we don’t gum up the job-creating process with new taxes.

3: Spending. McCain should say he will cut spending because he believes that government should be smaller for both practical and philosophical reasons. Enough about earmarks. They are bad. But Obama won when he said they were only $18 billion — a small percentage of federal expenditures. Point out that the “bridge to nowhere” was egregious — but even with more legitimate projects, choices have to be made. Note that when Jim Lehrer asked what new programs each candidate would be willing to cut, Obama offered none but said we should be investing more money in early-childhood education. Here’s a phrase: magic thinking. We’re broke. Ask voters if they personally are focused on cutting spending or buying better services right now, going into this recession.

On Tuesday night, have McCain look at Obama and say, “You think early-childhood education is important? That $972 million you spent on local nonsense, money that went to Tony Rezko, programs administered by your Reverend Wright, and, by the way, the hospital where your wife works, could have paid for a fair bit of it.”

4: A little populism. McCain will have to defend much of the bailout by explaining that Wall Street and Main Street are two sides of the same coin. Of course McCain is not a fan of massive CEO salaries, though he doesn’t think it is the president’s job to level them. Admonish that this is the time for executives to tone down the greed and boards to makes sure they do.



5: Run McCain as his own man, not as a senator. McCain should stop saying “maverick,” and stop being sentimental about the Senate and his place in it. Most voters despise Congress. Stop with the “my dear friend” and “I love him, but . . .” What does he think an insider sounds like?

6: Bill Ayers and other close friends. Discuss the details of domestic terrorist Bill Ayers’ long-term relationship with Obama. Ayers served with the candidate on the Woods Fund board, and Obama was handsomely paid for that work. Who introduced them, and when? Make Obama explain why the Woods Fund gave grants to racial programs (“Juneteenth education”) rather than basic education for deprived minority kids.

Speaking of terrorist buds, Barack and Michelle were close with Rashid and Mona Khalidi, convicted terrorism supporters. What was that about? Make the analogy to the Reverend Wright. Hit the larger point that there are so many of these long-term social relationships with people who hate this country and find it mean-spirited and racist. What does Barack enjoy about hanging with these types?

7: Arrogance bordering on treason. On his listening tour last summer, Senator Obama attempted to undermine Bush administration policy in Iraq. In personal conversations he asked that the Iraqi leadership wait for the next administration (his) to begin serious troop withdrawals — as Amir Taheri has documented. Apparently, he wanted to make it look as if the troops were coming home due to him.

8: Women. Why are women on Obama’s Senate staff in lower positions, and making less money, relative to the McCain campaign’s women? McCain is a feminist now, what with his VP choice.

9: Smart but wrong. McCain has a relatively inexperienced running mate. She’ll be a swell veep, but she isn’t really ready to be president right now. When it comes up, note that judgment matters. Your ticket can boast of no Harvard degrees. But experience teaches that people who are smart and wrong are far more dangerous than people who have solid instincts and less grad school. But by far the worst combination is an inexperienced intellectual who has absolute conviction that his radical ideas are superior.

10: What he’s for. While leveling attacks, McCain should simultaneously convey real empathy for Americans who are in tough economic situations. He can share tales of suffering, show that his heart goes out to his fellow citizens, and promise to do his utmost to help. But it is not possible for the federal government to fix everyone’s problems. Discuss health care, business formation, jobs. Announce that McCain will assemble a new team, and name a few reassuring leaders. Offer a comprehensive economic plan to firm up the economy, shrink government, foster job creation, and make sure that safety nets are in place. In other words, a plan to tweak, not reinvent, the economy.

Plane

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Re: Simple Truths
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2008, 10:45:35 PM »
NO WAY they could have won Vietnam without dripping the nukes.

By 1969, they could not draft enough men to keep it going. They would have had to arrest draftees to keep the slaughter going.

By the time of the Tet offensive, Americans were convinced that it was a waste of lives, time and money. And they were RIGHT.

There was no reason to get involved in the first place. Just like Iraq.


You think that General Giap was lieing?

He said that after Tet he was ready to quit.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Simple Truths
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2008, 11:09:22 PM »
You think that General Giap was lieing?

He said that after Tet he was ready to quit.
==================================
I have yet to see this other than in rightwing blogs. If he said it, he was wrong.

It does not mean that that was not the turning point of the war, because it was.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

richpo64

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Re: Simple Truths
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2008, 11:13:57 PM »
>>I have yet to see this other than in rightwing blogs. If he said it, he was wrong.<<

Wow BO, you're truly amazing. You're so seriously lacking in the history of the Vietnam war than now you're more of an authority than the people WHO ACTUALLY FOUGHT  IT!?

What a tool.

Michael Tee

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Re: Simple Truths - Gen. Giap's Tet Comments Never Happened
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2008, 11:55:00 PM »
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/giap.asp

The LIE that General Giap claimed a huge Tet defeat is declared FALSE in snopes, see reference above.  Rich, plane, others who have made that claim, it is a lie.  There is no evidence for it.  It never happened and it is NOT in his memoirs.

This is just typical of the right-wing lies and bullshit that permeate the internet and need to be exposed at every opportunity.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Simple Truths
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2008, 11:58:50 PM »
I don't believe a bloody thing you rightwingers say. You worship Joe McCarthy and the John Birchers.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

BT

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Re: Simple Truths - Gen. Giap's Tet Comments Never Happened
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2008, 12:34:54 AM »
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/giap.asp

The LIE that General Giap claimed a huge Tet defeat is declared FALSE in snopes, see reference above.&nbsp; Rich, plane, others who have made that claim, it is a lie.&nbsp; There is no evidence for it.&nbsp; It never happened and it is NOT in his memoirs.

This is just typical of the right-wing lies and bullshit that permeate the internet and need to be exposed at every opportunity.

It's possible that the apparently apocryphal General Giap statement is based upon a misattribution of somewhat similar sentiments expressed by other political or military figures involved in the Vietnam War. For example, in 1995 the Wall Street Journal published an interview with Bui Tin, a former colonel who served on the general staff of the North Vietnamese army, that included the following exchange:
Q: How did Hanoi intend to defeat the Americans?

A: By fighting a long war which would break their will to help South Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh said, "We don't need to win military victories, we only need to hit them until they give up and get out."

Q: Was the American antiwar movement important to Hanoi's victory?

A: It was essential to our strategy. Support for the war from our rear was completely secure while the American rear was vulnerable. Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9 a.m. to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement. Visits to Hanoi by people like Jane Fonda and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses. We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war and that she would struggle along with us.

Q: Did the Politburo pay attention to these visits?

A: Keenly

Q: Why?

A: Those people represented the conscience of America. The conscience of America was part of its war-making capability, and we were turning that power in our favor. America lost because of its democracy; through dissent and protest it lost the ability to mobilize a will to win.

Q: What else?

A: We had the impression that American commanders had their hands tied by political factors. Your generals could never deploy a maximum force for greatest military effect.

(The article notes that this interview was conducted after Bui Tin became "disillusioned with the fruits of Vietnamese communism" and left Vietnam to live in Paris, so it's possible that his comments may have been influenced by his changed outlook.)
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/giap.asp

From the same link