DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Xavier_Onassis on September 09, 2008, 09:04:31 PM
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I recall when the TV character Murphy Brown, decided to give birth as a single parent to her ex-husband's and her child, VP Dan Quayle pushed his way in uninvited and said that she was setting a bad example by becoming a TV character single mom. Now, it appears that single mommery is all the rage, and young Bristol Palin is some sort of heroine for getting herself knocked up.
Republicans, it seems will say whatever they want about morality if they think it will get them votes and a chance to beat up on the other party.
The odds of a teenage marriage not ending in divorce in the first five years are about 1 in 4. About 2% of teen mothers actually namage to graduate from college. I know about this, because I used to teach dozens of them. Or, in more cases than not, try to teach them.
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Now, it appears that single mommery is all the rage
Judging by the slime war waged against the Palin's the roles have been reversed. When did you guys get so prim and proper?
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All I have said is that Bristol Palin getting knocked up suggests that her mother's theory that all teenagers need is an abstinence program is perhaps misguided. Had she a better theory, then Bristol Palin would not have become pregnant, and I think that this would be advantageous for her as well as her family. Only time will tell how all thois sorts itself out, of course.
Most teenage girls have sex, and most do not get pregnant. Perhaps they have better sex ed in school. Perhaps their mothers give them better advice, or even contraceptives.
As for Murphy Brown, I think Quayle's remark was silly. Murphy Brown, a prosperous newscaster in her late 30's was not a role model for teenagers or anyone, just a character in a tv show.
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All I have said is that Bristol Palin getting knocked up suggests that her mother's theory that all teenagers need is an abstinence program is perhaps misguided.
How many times do you need to be told that Palin has no problems with contraceptives?
She is anti-abortion. Period.
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How many times do you need to be told that Palin has no problems with contraceptives?
She is anti-abortion. Period.
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No, this is not the case. You are inaccurate about this.
She has also been on record as saying that she favors only abstinence as a program to prevent teenagers from becoming pregnant.
"Only" would indicate that she must have a problem with teaching about contraceptives or providing them.
People, including teenagers, who are abstinent do not use, nor require, contraceptives.
She thinks teenagers and I assume other unmarried persons should not have sex. She perhaps believes that married persons have the right to prevent unwanted pregnancies by using contraceptives.
Contraceptives are highly effective, even simple prophylactics and spermicides.
The odds are that if young Bristol had used contraceptives, she would not have become pregnant.
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Once again:
Palin spokeswoman Maria Comella said the governor stands by her 2006 statement, supporting sex education that covers both abstinence and contraception.
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-sexed6-2008sep06,0,3119305.story (http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-sexed6-2008sep06,0,3119305.story)
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http://www.socksandbarney.com/comics/2008-09-01-socksbarney_181.gif (http://www.socksandbarney.com/comics/2008-09-01-socksbarney_181.gif)
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Weak deflection.
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For God's sake XO, do you oppose abstinence being a part of sex education?
(http://afromusing.com/blog/wp-content/photos/Abstinence%20Billboard.jpg)
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Once again:
Palin spokeswoman Maria Comella said the governor stands by her 2006 statement, supporting sex education that covers both abstinence and contraception.
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-sexed6-2008sep06,0,3119305.story (http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-sexed6-2008sep06,0,3119305.story)
...both McCain and Palin have expressed a commitment to abstinence-only sex education programs.
Specifically, Palin has a record of opposing any school-based sexual education program other than those that adopt an abstinence-only approach. During her 2006 Alaska gubernatorial campaign, Palin responded to a question on sex education programs with the answer, "The explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support."
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5711359 (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5711359)
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When thinkprogress reports that she is pro contraceptive, one would think the issue was at rest.
http://thinkprogress.org/wonkroom/2008/08/30/palin-contraception/ (http://thinkprogress.org/wonkroom/2008/08/30/palin-contraception/)
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more:
In a widely quoted 2006 survey she answered during her gubernatorial campaign, Palin said she supported abstinence-until-marriage programs. But weeks later, she proclaimed herself ?pro-contraception? and said condoms ought to be discussed in schools alongside abstinence.
?I?m pro-contraception, and I think kids who may not hear about it at home should hear about it in other avenues,? she said during a debate in Juneau.
http://race42008.com/2008/09/06/palin-supports-contraception-sex-education/ (http://race42008.com/2008/09/06/palin-supports-contraception-sex-education/)
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Apparently, she failed to tell her own daughter about her change in position. The proof is there for all to see.
And once more, I see more than a bit of hypocrisy in Quayle lambasting a TV character as a bad moral example one year and the Republicans cheering Bristol's being knocked up as some sort of triumph another year. Republicans are dolts when it comes to sex.
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"And once more, I see more than a bit of hypocrisy in Quayle lambasting a TV
character as a bad moral example one year and the Republicans cheering Bristol's
being knocked up as some sort of triumph another year"
Thats flawed logic and disingenuous, but a clever lie.
When have Republicans cheered Bristol being knocked up?
What is a triumph is unlike Obama the Palin's do not view the baby as a
"punishment".
Sure it would be easier to take the Obama route.
Sending the daughter off to an obortuary to have the baby killed was not an option.
Thats what is cheered. LIFE!
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A teenager with a baby generally spends the rest of her life at the bottom of society, unless she manages to marry out of her plight as an unexperienced, uneducated woman with no skills. All those "pro-lifers" are of little help. Most are out railing about how the puny minimum wage is bad for everyone, which, of course is not even close to true.
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Apparently, she failed to tell her own daughter about her change in position. The proof is there for all to see.
Bristol's pregnancy does not equate to a lack of knowledge of contraceptives.
It doesn't even equate to a lack of use of contraceptives.
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>>Bristol's pregnancy does not equate to a lack of knowledge of contraceptives. It doesn't even equate to a lack of use of contraceptives.<<
Exactly. Has anyone asked her if she was using anything? With all the vicious rumors out there why not have Oprah just ask her? Oh, that's right. She's not a democrat so Oprah won't have her on.
For those of us who are trying to be fair about this, and there are a few democrats who are, could this line of attack by some on the left be more vicious or more disgusting? Like the left's opposition to energy independence it makes you ask the question, why? Why be like this? Why be so vicious? Is it a character flaw? What?
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Vicious? What vicious? There is no vicious.
There is nothing vicious about observing that pregnancy can be avoided by the use of contraceptives.
There is nothing vicious about saying that abstinence is ineffective.
There is nothing vicious about pointing out that in American society, teenage pregnancy puts the teen with a baby at a tremendous disadvantage, and therefore it is wise to avoid such a situation.
On the one hand, the Republicans want to make a big deal about what a good mother Palin is. But then, no one can deny that a woman whose daughter does not get pregnant as a teenager would be a better mother than one whose daughter did get pregnant as a teenager.
I do not think anyone can make the claim that having a pregnant teenaged daughter would make one a better leader, either.
Perhaps the Republicans want to experience the delights of victimhood.
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Vicious? What vicious? There is no vicious. There is nothing vicious about observing that pregnancy can be avoided by the use of contraceptives. There is nothing vicious about saying that abstinence is ineffective.
This is amazing double speak. Abstinence IS EFFECTIVE 100% of the time, if practiced. Contraceptives, even if practiced 100% of the time, is NOT EFFECTIVE 100% of the time
There is nothing vicious about pointing out that in American society, teenage pregnancy puts the teen with a baby at a tremendous disadvantage, and therefore it is wise to avoid such a situation.
Which begs the rebuttal, why advocate 1 (contraceptives) while dissing and demonizing the other (abstinence), which is completely full proof effective at "puting the teen with a baby at a tremendous disadvantage, and therefore it is wise to avoid such a situation", when practiced??
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There is nothing vicious about observing that pregnancy can be avoided by the use of contraceptives.
Last time I checked, even if everyone who has sex uses contraceptives, and they use those contraceptives properly, there will still be pregnancies every year.
No contraceptive is 100% effective. Even using a combination of contraceptives is not 100% effective.
I know a couple that has two children. They have never had sex without contraceptives. Both are the results of contraceptive failure.
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Contraceptives, even if practiced 100% of the time, is NOT EFFECTIVE 100% of the time.
They isn't? That are a big surprise, it be.
They rate in the very high nintieth percentile.
You are now implying that Bristol Palin's pregnancy was the result of a failed BC method.
The odds are, however, that it was the result of none at all. They take surveys on these things all the time.
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For God's sake XO, do you oppose abstinence being a part of sex education?
I did not say that. I am all for teaching abstinence. But the issue is not whether abstinence should be taught. The issue is that ABSTINENCE ALONE does not work. Teenagers are chock full of hormones and oozing with lust. Abstinence is not effective for many, probably most, teenagers.
Europeans are far more open when they talk about sex. European teenagers generally become sexually active around the age of sixteen or seventeen. Yet the rate of teenage pregnancy is much, much lower in nearly every European nation than in the US. This is because we have all these Bible-thumpers running around doing everything they can to make abstinence and abstinence alone programs in the schools. In Europe, they distribute condoms and have very few teen pregnancies. In the US, they distribute pamphlets about how to not have sex and how Becky-Sue should save herself for marriage and such, and we have a higher rate of teen pregnancy. This is a cause and result affair.
Teen pregnancy is one of several avoidable root causes of poverty, hunger and deprivation in the US. More should be done to avoid it.
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Teen pregnancy is one of several avoidable root causes of poverty, hunger and deprivation in the US. More should be done to avoid it.
Then by all means, STOP the insidious trashing of abstinence advocation
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This is a cause and result affair.
No, it's not.
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I know a couple that has two children. They have never had sex without contraceptives. Both are the results of contraceptive failure.
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I am not going to believe that you have been a witness to their every carnal act, so I think what you really mean is that they SAY that they have never had sex without contraceptives, and you believe them.
I find no difficulty in believing that you believe them, and only slightly less in believing that you heard them say this. That is, if indeed I believe that they, in fact, exist. There is always the possibility that both of them are figments of your imagination.
I know this: when I was growing up, there were no BC pills. There were condoms, diaphragms and spermicides. I grew up in a small, mostly Protestant town where people generally thought two or three children was the ideal, and in fact, very few people had more than three.
It is conceivable that Bristol Palin's unborn fetus was the result of one, two, three or perhaps even four failed BC devices plus the use of the rhythm method.
It is also possible that she was fecundated by an alien named Gorn from the Planet Koozbane in her sleep during one of the rare Aurora Borealis abductions. Possible, not probable, but possible.
However, the greatest odds are that said pregnancy was the result of the non use of any BC device at all.
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There is always the possibility that both of them are figments of your imagination.
Yes, just like being able to turn the batteries around in a flashlight and it will still work is a figment of my imagination.
You make an assumption based on odds and expect everyone to believe it is fact. I'll give you a real fact - there are plenty of children born to parents who use birth control every year.
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Teen pregnancy is one of several avoidable root causes of poverty, hunger and deprivation in the US. More should be done to avoid it.
Then by all means, STOP the insidious trashing of abstinence advocation
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I did not trash (insidiously or otherwise) advocating abstinence, I merely stated that it is not effective because it he hard to refrain from sex when one is a teenager, and that it should be used with other, more realistic methods for best results.
Second, you seem to think that if I say that it is unrealistic to rely on abstinence alone that in some mystical way, it will cause teenaged girls to become pregnant. For this to happen, there have to be two circumstances present: (1) teenage girls have to be actually paying attention to what I am posting here, and (2) they have to be really strange teenage girls, who go out and screw around because I said that they are likely to get pregnant if they do just that.
I offer the following as a public service:
IF THERE ARE ANY TEENAGE GIRLS READING THIS PLEASE TAKE CAREFUL NOTE THAT IF YOU WANT TO AVOID GETTING KNOCKED UP, THE VERY BEST WAY TO DO THIS IS TO NOT HAVE ANY SEX AT ALL. IN THE EVENT THAT YOUR BOYFRIEND TELLS YOU ABOUT HOW PAINFUL THIS IS AND HOW IT WILL CAUSE HIS GONADS TO TURN BLUE, WEAR RUBBER PANTIES AND THEN GIVE THE FOOL A HAND JOB.
PREGNANCY WILL ALSO NOT OCCUR FROM HAVING SEX WITH OTHER FEMALES.
ORAL SEX SHOULD ONLY BE ENGAGED IN AFTER EXTENSIVE STUDY OF HOW REPRODUCTION OCCURS.
GENITAL SEX WILL NORMALLY RESULT IN PREGNANCY. THERE ARE MANY METHODS OF BIRTH CONTROL, AND THEY ARE AVAILABLE ON THE INTERNET AT PLANNEDPARENTHOOD.COM AND MANY OTHER SITES. THESE SHOULD BE STUDIED CAREFULLY BY YOU AND YOUR OPPOSITE-SEX PARTNER EXTENSIVELY AND ALL DIRECTIONS REGARDING THEIR USE SHOULD BE STRICTLY ADHERED TO.
I trust that this will quell your moral outrage.
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There is always the possibility that both of them are figments of your imagination.
Yes, just like being able to turn the batteries around in a flashlight and it will still work is a figment of my imagination. You make an assumption based on odds and expect everyone to believe it is fact. I'll give you a real fact - there are plenty of children born to parents who use birth control every year.
And I'm guessing Xo will be unable to demonstrate even 1 case of a child born to a couple who practiced abstinence
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Teen pregnancy is one of several avoidable root causes of poverty, hunger and deprivation in the US. More should be done to avoid it.
Then by all means, STOP the insidious trashing of abstinence advocation
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I did not trash (insidiously or otherwise) advocating abstinence, I merely stated that it is not effective because it he hard to refrain from sex when one is a teenager, and that it should be used with other, more realistic methods for best results.
It is effective 100% of the time, when practiced. Your issue is you support the notion that teens have no self control, what-so-ever, "raging hormones" and the like. Funny thing is, it IS possible, IF it is practiced, and IF it's not consistently demagogued as being supposedly ineffective, to which that is completely false. It's 100% effective, WHEN practiced. BC is NOT 100% effective, even when practiced 100% of the time.
Second, you seem to think that if I say that it is unrealistic to rely on abstinence alone ...
Stop there, I did NOT say that. Please pay attention. I said it's 100% effective compared to all other forms of BC.
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My flashlights will not work if the batteries are reversed. Not one of them.
How many is "plenty"?
It seems to be rather vague for a "fact". I prefer more precise facts.
I am sure that abstinence works, other than persistent rumors coming from the Holy Mother Church.
I think there was a case of parthenogenesis discovered in England in the 1960's as well.
The trouble is not with the practice of abstinence, but with the likelihood that it will be practiced at all
by many teenagers, being as they are filled with lust and curiosity and every blesséd thing is sold with sex these days. But you know that. I think I have exhausted every possible nook and cranny of this rather silly issue and will retire from it with the following announcement: I will not vote for the Republican Party ticket under any circumstances, even if Bristol Palin gives birth to a mutant quasi-human child of Gorn from the Planet Koozbane and it eats humans alive, even the Democratic ticket in its entirety.
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Apparently Xo isn't much of a believer in practicing what he preaches. Not too stunning a revelation, I'm afraid
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My flashlights will not work if the batteries are reversed. Not one of them.
That's fine. However, you extrapolated from this bit of information that no flashlight will work with the batteries reversed, and even claimed to have asked electrical engineers why this was so, but could not get an answer.
And yet, even though I was apparently delusional, I could get it to work. Even showed you a video of it.
It's the same thing with this issue; apparently because birth control works in many cases, you have extrapolated that only people who want to have children, or are sex crazed, or don't use birth control at all, get pregnant. However, there are plenty of people who use birth control and get pregnant every year.
Just because you extrapolate does not mean that you are correct. In many cases, you are wrong.
BTW, since you wanted more hard data, below is a clip of a table from this article (http://www.christiancontraception.com/articles/FailureRates_Ranjit2001.pdf) which shows that even using the pill (one of the most effective birth control methods) about 13% of women experience birth control failures during the first two years. Is that specific enough?
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>>On the one hand, the Republicans want to make a big deal about what a good mother Palin is.<<
I don't recall any Republican making such claims, not even Governor Palin. What I do see is liberals calling her a bad mother because her daughter is pregnant. This is of course ridiculous on it's face. We know Governor Palin prefers abstinence for teens but isn't opposed to contraception for adults. Simple really. Most people think the same way. At least I’ve never met a parent who didn’t teach (and hope they listened) their children that waiting is better.
>>But then, no one can deny that a woman whose daughter does not get pregnant as a teenager would be a better mother than one whose daughter did get pregnant as a teenager.<<
Anyone can deny such a statement. And should. Otherwise you’d have to say that America is full of poor mothers. Which of course is ridiculous.
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But then, no one can deny that a woman whose daughter does not get pregnant as a teenager would be a better mother than one whose daughter did get pregnant as a teenager.<<
Anyone can deny such a statement. And should. Otherwise you’d have to say that America is full of poor mothers. Which of course is ridiculous.
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First off, you are confusing the terms "better" and "poor".
America has many better mothers whose teenage daughters do not get pregnant due to the advice given to them by said mothers.
But is also has many mothers whose teenage daughters do get pregnant. They may be better in many other ways than the first group, but this is a type of failure.
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Second, your logic is faulty. To say that it is impossible for everyone in a group to be poor at something is simply bad thinking.
In the 1400's the world was filled with perfectly incompetent astronomers, all of whom believed that the Earth was at the exact center of Creation, and that the Sun and the rest of the universe revolved around it. There were many who were sure that the Earth was flat.
They were also nearly all awful biologists: they believed that rats and mice spontaneously generated from piles of rags and filth, aided by Satan.
Jesus (or most likely the author of one of the Gospels, I forget which) was a pretty incompetent psychologist. Once he met a madman, and allegedly cured him by dislodging the "demons" that possessed him into a herd of swine, who then committed porcine suicide, drowning themselves in a lake, we are told.
It seems pretty obvious that we all probably share in some totally false beliefs that will be disproved in the future.
Mass incompetence has been the case for much of human history.
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>>First off, you are confusing the terms "better" and "poor".<<
Please, spare me this nonsense. Your implication was clear.
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It you think that logical thought is nonsense, it is useless to explain anything to you.
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Your logic is questionable as is your premise.
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Just for fun, what do you think the premise is?
How about the logic?
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Just for fun, why don't you explain what you meant by:
"On the one hand, the Republicans want to make a big deal about what a good mother Palin is. But then, no one can deny that a woman whose daughter does not get pregnant as a teenager would be a better mother than one whose daughter did get pregnant as a teenager."
and then:
"But is also has many mothers whose teenage daughters do get pregnant. They may be better in many other ways than the first group, but this is a type of failure."
So you can be a 'less better" mother and a failure as long as you're ... Governor Palin? Please, see if you can parse this a little better because you seem to be bending over backwards to expalin away your judgement on mothers who's daughter get pregnant and are as you call them, failures ... or not failures ... based on ... what? Based on some form of logic only you are aware of? Sure.
What is clear is that you're criteria is based on nothing more than your desire to smear Governor Palin. Ordinarily you would defends someone like this, that much we know. The only reason you're not is also known.
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A perfect mother would not have a teenage daughter that gets pregnant.
Palin's teenage daughter became pregnant.
Therefore, Palin is not a perfect mother. Many mothers, however, do manage to get their daughters through their teenage years without them becoming pregnant.
The Republican party tells us that we should admire Palin as a mother of five who has also been successful in politics as a reformer.
But then it tells us that we may not point out flwas in her mothering skills because that is not "fair".
At the same time, it removes Palin from the position where she can be most effective as a reformer. The VP of the US has no authority to do anything about corruption. No VP since Harry Truman has uprooted corruption, and he did this only as a Senator BEFORE becoming VP.
I submit that there are two instances of illogic here.
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What is clear is that you're criteria is based on nothing more than your desire to smear Governor Palin. Ordinarily you would defends someone like this, that much we know. The only reason you're not is also known.'''
YOu have no way of knowing my motives. I did not smear Palin, I simply pointed out that one cannot extol her for being a good mother and then claim that any m,ention of her mothering skills is illogical.
If Palin is also a great reformer, why does it make sense to remove her from the position where she fights corruption and place her in a position where she will have no power whatsoever to do anything about corruption?
Is this not a victory for the corrupt? If not, how is this not so?
YOur interpretation of my motives have no bearing on the facts.
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A perfect mother would not have a teenage daughter that gets pregnant. Palin's teenage daughter became pregnant. Therefore, Palin is not a perfect mother.
So Xo...please list us some examples of a "perfect mother"
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I would say that a perfect mother would encourage her children to be all that they can be, both in their social and career lives. I would see a daughter getting to be pregnant as a teen to be evidence of less than perfect parenting skills. I am pretty sure that most middle class Americans would agre with this position.
But this is not the issue that I started with. There are two points: (1) the Republican Party should not expect that they can point to Palin being a successful mother with a career not be criticized for what most would consider a failure in parenting. (2) Since Palin is most successful at eliminating corruption in Alaska, why should they jerk her away from any possibility of continuing to eliminate corruption in Alaska.
Neither point in any way requires me to define a perfect mother. You are free to do this if you wish, but I do not wish to divert this topic, nor shall I do this.
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Still waiting for that list of names, of those who are a "perfect mother"
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Still waiting for that list of names, of those who are a "perfect mother"
(1) The Blesséd Virgin Mary
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As I said, that is not the point of my discussion, and I will not be bullied by you or anyone to diverting the topics. There are two to choose from, if you don;t like either, just withdraw or say you have nothing more to say.
I have nothing more to say.
If you like having the last word as assholes often do, go right ahead. Speak.
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Apparently Xo still can't control himself....even when he's not responding to an attack. Too bad
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>>A perfect mother would not have a teenage daughter that gets pregnant.<<
So now you've abandoned "better" for "perfect." FYI, nobody ever claimed Governor Palin is perfect. Like I said, the motivation is clear and frankly it's not worth addressing any further.
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Still waiting for that list of names, of those who are a "perfect mother"
(1) The Blesséd Virgin Mary
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As I said, that is not the point of my discussion, and I will not be bullied by you or anyone to diverting the topics. There are two to choose from, if you don;t like either, just withdraw or say you have nothing more to say.
I have nothing more to say.
If you like having the last word as assholes often do, go right ahead. Speak.
That being the standard I suppose that there will never be a woman that you can support for office unless she has never had children , or they have turned out as well as Jesus.
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Still waiting for that list of names, of those who are a "perfect mother"
Never saw one, but here are some bad ones.
(http://a.sc.msn.com/2-/K4L2F6MZ-036%7D+US8FWKF].jpg)
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they have turned out as well as Jesus.
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I think there are many things a son could do to please his mom that might be better than getting yourself arrested and publicly executed right in front of you.
If you look at this from a mother's perspective, I mean.
It never seemed to me that the Pieta was crying happy tears. But that is just an artist's interpretation, isn't it?
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they have turned out as well as Jesus.
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I think there are many things a son could do to please his mom that might be better than getting yourself arrested and publicly executed right in front of you.
If you look at this from a mother's perspective, I mean.
It never seemed to me that the Pieta was crying happy tears. But that is just an artist's interpretation, isn't it?
Thus only childless women can run for office?
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Thus only childless women can run for office?
You have not been following the discussion, or perhaps enjoy misunderstanding stuff like sirs.
My point is and has ever been that on one hand, the GOP presents Palin as an ideal candidate by virtue of her being a mother, thereby indicating that motherhood is a qualification for office, and THEN says that any suggestions that she is not a good mother or anything short of a perfect mother cannot be mentioned because that would be unfair.
It is not her motherhood or even her lack of perfection as a mother that disqualifies her for the job in my opinion, it is her lack of knowledge of pretty much anything I think the VP of an ancient cancer patient president should have. I am elated by her ability at moosing and rooting out Alaskan corruption, and think that she is so good at it, she should stay in the proper capital for her, which is Juneau, not Washington DC.
I do not feel that the Virgin Mary has the qualifications to be VP or president. First, she is deceased, second, if she were alive, she would not speak English, and third, she was not born in the USA. Dead, Aramaic-speaking foreign women are not what we need running our country. I can't see it any other way.
Sorry.
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Thus only childless women can run for office?
You have not been following the discussion, or perhaps enjoy misunderstanding stuff like sirs.
My point is and has ever been that on one hand, the GOP presents Palin as an ideal candidate by virtue of her being a mother, thereby indicating that motherhood is a qualification for office, and THEN says that any suggestions that she is not a good mother or anything short of a perfect mother cannot be mentioned because that would be unfair.
It is not her motherhood or even her lack of perfection as a mother that disqualifies her for the job in my opinion, it is her lack of knowledge of pretty much anything I think the VP of an ancient cancer patient president should have. I am elated by her ability at moosing and rooting out Alaskan corruption, and think that she is so good at it, she should stay in the proper capital for her, which is Juneau, not Washington DC.
I do not feel that the Virgin Mary has the qualifications to be VP or president. First, she is deceased, second, if she were alive, she would not speak English, and third, she was not born in the USA. Dead, Aramaic-speaking foreign women are not what we need running our country. I can't see it any other way.
Sorry.
At my age I consider non of my faults to be the result of my parents faults.
and when I was a teen I wanted faults my parents didn't have.
I think many Americans have experience with teens and sympathy for Sara Pallin as a mother.
Motherhood will be a unique experience for a (vice) presidential Canada , probably a good experience to draw from , if she is elected she will be the first with this experience in this office.
So who is requiring perfection and who is claiming perfection? She is a mother , that is a part of her resume that the rest of the field doesn't match.
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My point is and has ever been that on one hand, the GOP presents Palin as an ideal candidate by virtue of her being a mother, thereby indicating that motherhood is a qualification for office, and THEN says that any suggestions that she is not a good mother or anything short of a perfect mother cannot be mentioned because that would be unfair.
Funny, I thought she was presented as an ideal candidate because she had executive experience and a reputation as a "slash the waste" conservative. I don't remember McCain ever saying that he chose her because she was a mother.
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Neither do I. Must be in that same memo Xo claimed that has McCain being qualified to be President because he was a POW
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The GOP hype railed on and on about her mothering. Most of the photos shown at the convention were family shots. It is not just McCain that hyped her, and any hype is subject to criticism.
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Must be in that same memo Xo claimed that has McCain being qualified to be President because he was a POW
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If it isn't important, why is he always talking about it? Bobdole knew how to shut up about his war injuries, that were a whole lot worse than McCain's.
Every speech at the convention, they could not shut up about how he could not raise his arms, and how cruelly they treated him when all he wanted to do was bomb the sh*t out of them.
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Expressing some of her qualities, and aspects of life she has accomplished (or what McCain has been thru) is NOT, repeat NOT the same as claiming THOSE alone are the reasons she should be Veep (or president, in McCain's case). They are simply giving more detail about the person. Comprende'?
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Expressing some of her qualities, and aspects of life she has accomplished (or what McCain has been thru) is NOT, repeat NOT the same as claiming THOSE alone are the reasons she should be Veep (or president, in McCain's case). They are simply giving more detail about the person. Comprende'?
Excuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me. I continue to be unimpressed, and continue to think that anything presented about a candidate is fair game if there is doubt about its truthfulness.
I wonder why they don't tell us Sarah's favorite flavor of yogurt, or McCain's favorite vegetable. There is soooo much to know. Jockeys or Boxers? Old lady panties or *gasp!* thongs! Shoe size and number of fillings. Scars and other identifying marks.
Think they'll implant a teensy speaker in McCain's ear like they did in Juniorbush's?
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Must be in that same memo Xo claimed that has McCain being qualified to be President because he was a POW
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If it isn't important, why is he always talking about it? Bobdole knew how to shut up about his war injuries, that were a whole lot worse than McCain's.
Every speech at the convention, they could not shut up about how he could not raise his arms, and how cruelly they treated him when all he wanted to do was bomb the sh*t out of them.
Since Al Queda types want to bomb us , are we excused to leave their wounds untreated when we capture them?
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Since Al Queda types want to bomb us , are we excused to leave their wounds untreated when we capture them?
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We should treat their wounds, but, in the event they run for public office, ignore their complaints.
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Since Al Queda types want to bomb us , are we excused to leave their wounds untreated when we capture them?
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We should treat their wounds, but, in the event they run for public office, ignore their complaints.
I can imagine a graduate of camp X-ray becomeing politicly important in his homelands politics , would he be bragging?
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I can imagine a graduate of camp X-ray becomeing politicly important in his homelands politics , would he be bragging?
That would depend on the reality he lived through and the validity of his claims. However, I disagree with the premise that his time in Gitmo served as useful executive, judicial or legislative experience.
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Expressing some of her qualities, and aspects of life she has accomplished (or what McCain has been thru) is NOT, repeat NOT the same as claiming THOSE alone are the reasons she should be Veep (or president, in McCain's case). They are simply giving more detail about the person. Comprende'?
Excuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me. I continue to be unimpressed, and continue to think that anything presented about a candidate is fair game if there is doubt about its truthfulness.
No one has said you can't criticize anything about her. The issue is your continued false claims of something that doesn't exist, in this case how her qualifications for being a veep is touted as her simply being a mother......earlier it was even being a perfect mother. A little intellectual honesty, please
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I did not say that she was qualified or unqualified because she was a mother.
What I said was that this motherhood thing was presented as part of her schtick, and therefore any bitching about how disrespectful it was to criticize her mothering skills is total nonsense.
You asking for intellectual honesty is like Jack the Ripper asking for a tidier environment.
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What I said was that this motherhood thing was presented as part of her schtick, and therefore any bitching about how disrespectful it was to criticize her mothering skills is total nonsense.
That would be true if there were excessive claims to the quality of her motherhood.
What seems to be a double standard is that Obama is not referred to as a father of two, as if that were his primary qualification.
Yet we often see Palin. mother of five, governor of Alaska. And i don't think it is the GOP that sets the order.
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The reason we see Palin, mother of five, is that the GOP sends out family photos. Then you guys bitch about the captions.
It makes NO DIFFERENCE to me whether she has five of fifteen kids. I am not voting for her because I disagree with every national GOP policy she has endorsed.
You seem to be unhappy with the fact that people think of mothers being the ones with the exclusive right to bear children. I suppose you would be happier if Barack Obama had been pregnant a couple of times.
The fact is that women do more of the child rearing in our society, just like in all the others. It is NORMAL to think of a woman with five children as a woman with five children. Five children is a lot.
If Barack Obama had five children, then they would refer to him as a man with five children. Five is about double the usual number.
For 100 years the Republicans have been nominating only men. Half that time, they didn't even think women should vote. Now they nominate a woman and you are crying like Lucille Ball when Ricky refused to let her sing at the Copacabana about how UNFAIR it is not to treat her like a guy. And hoping that the Democrats do treat her like a guy so they can talk about how unchivalrous that is.
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I did not say that she was qualified or unqualified because she was a mother.
No, you said everyone supporting her nomination largely was, which was patently WRONG. Much like your false claims that McCain's supposed qualification was touted as being a POW. That was WRONG as well. Much like your claims of how no question has ever been answered to my satisfaction. That was WRONG as well. Much like I how supposedly believe any and every teacher who's a member of a union is incompotent. That would be WRONG as well. I could go on, but the theme of your posts is quite clear
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You either can't, or don't read, and do not seem to understand what you read.
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You're right....I'm RW, we don't do nuance. When one of us reads something, we pretty much read it as is, vs the contorted spin the other tries to put on it after the fact, and then when called on it, claim something along the lines of oh..... You either can't, or don't read, and do not seem to understand what you read ;)
Just for those who Xo claims doesn't read this post
Xo did claim that McCain supporters were citing his being a POW as a qualification for being President
Strike I
Xo did claim that Palin supporters were citing her as a perfect mom
Strike II
Xo did claim that sirs thinks any Teacher who's a member of a union is incompotent
Strike III....have a seat
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The reason we see Palin, mother of five, is that the GOP sends out family photos. Then you guys bitch about the captions.
No we see Palin mother of five, because reporters and columnists choose to type that phrase. Simple as that.