Author Topic: Why McCain is a Genius  (Read 7661 times)

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Michael Tee

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #45 on: September 01, 2008, 11:37:57 PM »
<<Totally the wrong question, it assumes as a given that the Government has the right to educate children in contradiction of parents , science or not ,it does not.>>

It assumes no such thing.  No parent has to send his child to any public or government school if he or she schools the child at home or in private school.

But for those of us who use the public school system (my wife and I sent all three of our kids through the Toronto public school system, which we and my parents are also products of) we expect that the government will educate our kids in what they promise. 

We expect our kids will learn English in English class, French in French class, math in math class and science in science class.  If my kid goes to French class and I find one day that she has been learning about 50% French and 50% Polish because the teacher happens to be a Polack, I am going to be one fucking annoyed parent.  I wouldn't put up with it and neither would anyone else.  Not because we have anything against Polish but because God damn it if we paid for French we damn well better get French.

Now it's the same thing in science class.  I don't want to be led to believe that my kid is learning science and then find out one day that half the time she's been learning some wing-nut totally non-scientific theory of Intelligent Design or Creation Science dreamed up by some wacko fundamentalist Christian, all under the guise of "studying science."  Anyone who wants to study that shit can go at their own expense to a Christian Academy and get a head full of it, and good luck to them, but when I send them to a public school class to learn science, I expect them to learn science.  And if there's any doubt about whether any theory or belief system is scientific or not, then I want that issue determined by scientists, not by politicians and certainly not by theologians.

Plane

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2008, 12:35:23 AM »
  If my kid goes to French class and I find one day that she has been learning about 50% French and 50% Polish because the teacher happens to be a Polack, I am going to be one fucking annoyed parent. 

Then you understand the frustration of a parent who is watching his children being taught something they are convinced is evil.

It is not fair to teach the kids stuff that will do nothing but cause them family strife.

Michael Tee

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2008, 01:17:34 AM »
<<Then you understand the frustration of a parent who is watching his children being taught something they are convinced is evil.>>

As a matter of fact, I'm very sensitive to it.  I grew up in the era of school prayer in the public schools when Jewish families had to face the choice of asking that their kids stand out in the hall when the Lords' Prayer was being recited (and look like a bunch a fuckin weirdos) or participate in a prayer that they regarded as an abomination because it came from a religion that worshiped a mortal man as if he were a god.  Well, our families were liberal, assimilated Jews and we had no problem at all with the Lord's Prayer because it never mentioned Jesus by name or even indirectly, but I could appreciate how other families might have felt it was blasphemous to be associated with offering up a prayer that originated from a tainted source.

But I am very familiar with the choice and the dilemma that it entails.  Kids really want to fit in.  I would have been very hostile to any move that separated me from any of my friends or implied that my parents did not want me to be associated with them.  We all grew up together and played together and I did not want to be forced to stand apart from them.  Nevertheless, had the prayer actually mentioned Jesus, there is no way that I or any other Jewish kid in the school would have participated.

The solution that the Ontario government ultimately found for this dilemma was to ban prayer from the public schools.  In theory, the same solution - - banning science from the public schools - - would solve a very similar problem in the exact same way.  The reason why prayer can be banned but science can't is a pure values issue - - the bottom line is that to the average parent of a public school student, prayer in school is expendable, science in school is not.  Our society, to put this bluntly, has made a decision that science is a lot more valuable than prayer.  Our kids can do without prayer but they can't do without science.  When dealing, for example, with the problem of an expansionist Japanese Empire, most people felt that nuclear physics would be a lot more likely to produce a resolution of the problem than years of intense and devout national prayer.   Now I can appreciate that you are on the wrong side of the line here - - but the tail doesn't wag the dog.  The public schools cannot please everyone, so they try to please broad majorities - - of which, on this one issue, you are not a member.  You have your alternatives - - private schools, Christian Academies, home-schooling; but the one option that is not on the table is public schools.  Because we, the vast majority, won't let you.  And nobody is going to ban science teaching from the public school system.

In American terms, it's probably easier to approach this in terms of the anti-establishment clause.  No scientist of any repute will consider Creation Theory or Intelligent Design to be science.  So scientists aren't pushing for this to be on the science curriculum.  Only religious people want this on a science curriculum.  But if the Christian religion can have its product on the public school shelf, why not all the other religions?  The Christians aren't the only ones with a theory on the Origin of Species.  Native American religions have lots of interesting and creative theories on the same subject.  So does the Nation of Islam, actually.  If the gatekeeper, whoever it may be, lets the Christian product into the schools but blocks the competing religions' products, then he or she is actually contributing to the "establishment" of the Christian religion over the others, in violation of the Constitution.

<<It is not fair to teach the kids stuff that will do nothing but cause them family strife.>>

It's not fair if there's a reasonable way to avoid it that doesn't compromise the values of the majority.  But there isn't.  The introduction of partisan religious theories into a science class gives them a false legitimacy in the eyes of impressionable students and wastes the time of serious students who are there to learn science and don't have the hours to waste on studying non-scientific garbage.   IMHO, if evolution theory IS so offensive, you have more or less the same choices that Jewish families had with respect to the Lord's Prayer - - ask that the kid stand in the hall while evolution is taught (which I think damages both the social fabric and the kid, and thus would never recommend;) ask the kid to drop biology (which might not be permitted in some schools and in any event would be a tragedy;) or educate the kid in one of the alternatives to the public school system.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 01:35:00 AM by Michael Tee »

Plane

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #48 on: September 02, 2008, 06:14:55 AM »
"Our society, to put this bluntly, has made a decision that science is a lot more valuable than prayer.  Our kids can do without prayer but they can't do without science.  "


The Government is far past its rights to do so , there has never been a referendum about this , but I don't think that a safe majority would agree that Prayer is less important .

Michael Tee

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #49 on: September 02, 2008, 09:18:17 AM »
<<The Government is far past its rights to do so , there has never been a referendum about this , but I don't think that a safe majority would agree that Prayer is less important .>>

Nobody holds referendums about Constitutional rights.  They're there to protect the minority against the majority.  At the same time, as a matter of practical politics, no democratically elected government is going to do anything that will genuinely outrage a substantial minority, let alone a majority, of its citizens.  If public opinion in favour of school prayer had remained consistently strong since the 1920s, school prayer would never have been abandoned in the public schools.

Prayer in the schools was a given (despite the objections of minorities, specifically Jews, and in total disregard of the constitutional rights of all who objected to religion being "established" in public schools) throughout the entire life of the nation, but during the Cold War, and particularly after Sputnik, I think public opinion began to solidify behind the idea that the Russians were outstripping us in science.  Scientific education became a priority here when the idea sank in that mass production of scientists was as important as nurturing the rare scientific genius which both societies had always been able to produce.

Once it became a matter of national security to make science a priority in public education, other concerns which had at one time or another been priorities necessarily shrank in value, religion among them.  Advocates of prayer in the public schools, who previously had been seen on one light, now began to be seen as the kind of old-fashioned thinkers, obviously at odds with science, who were responsible for the advantages - - or perhaps perceived advantages - - which the Russian school system had over ours.  There was some debate over the true function of the school system, public and private, and seen through Cold War lenses, that function was now one in which science (and non-religious knowledge in general, languages, math, geography, etc.) took on a much more prominent role.

I personally see the school system in general as one for the advancement of knowledge, and religious knowledge and/or instruction in morals and ethics is a part of the knowledge which has to be passed on in the educational process.  The only problem is how and where to pass it on.  I don't think, in most cases, that leaving it to the parents is the answer.  But when one looks at the public educational system, one runs into problems of Constitutional minority rights that do not factor into the non-public components of the educational system.  Forcing science students in a publicly run and publicly financed school to sit through, listen to and debate non-scientific alternative explanations of natural phenomena for the sole purpose of exposing them to the views of one or two particular religions, fundamentalist Christianity and Orthodox Judaism, is an unjustifiable waste of the students' time and a blatant breach of the anti-establishment clause of the Constitution.  These are views, incredibly stupid and misinformed ones, IMHO, which are available to anyone who is interested in Church, in Church-run schools, Christian Academies, fundamentalist Universities or similar "educational" institutions, but which otherwise have no place in a non-religious institution of learning.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #50 on: September 02, 2008, 04:01:58 PM »
How does anyone (government, church, or parents)  have the right to teach children obvious untruths?

There is considerable proof that the six-day creation mentioned in the Bible is nonsense.

The government does not make any decisions as to the power of prayer or lack thereof. It only states that the State has no right to enforce any sort of compulsory public prayer.


"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #51 on: September 02, 2008, 05:27:56 PM »
The government does not make any decisions as to the power of prayer or lack thereof. It only states that the State has no right to enforce any sort of compulsory public prayer.




It would be very nice if that were all that they did , there instead seems to be an effort to erase Christianity from the history of the USA.

What does a typical High school student know of Cotton Mather or Johnathan  Edwards?

Plane

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #52 on: September 02, 2008, 05:31:01 PM »
Quote
IMHO, if evolution theory IS so offensive, you have more or less the same choices that Jewish families had with respect to the Lord's Prayer - - ask that the kid stand in the hall while evolution is taught (which I think damages both the social fabric and the kid, and thus would never recommend;) ask the kid to drop biology (which might not be permitted in some schools and in any event would be a tragedy;) or educate the kid in one of the alternatives to the public school system.

Is that how the Lords prayer is handled now?

No the precident is clear , the offending subject must be dropped as if there were no value in it.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #53 on: September 02, 2008, 06:23:48 PM »
What does a typical High school student know of Cotton Mather or Johnathan  Edwards?
==================================
The sermons of both men are in several of the American Literature anthologies used in most high schools. Not that either of their sermons could really be considered great literature.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #54 on: September 02, 2008, 07:17:54 PM »
What does a typical High school student know of Cotton Mather or Johnathan  Edwards?
==================================
The sermons of both men are in several of the American Literature anthologies used in most high schools. Not that either of their sermons could really be considered great literature.

I hardly consider you to be a tipical American High school student.
Do you see my point that the depth of influence of Christianity in the development of the USA is being given less emphasis than it deserves?

So much so that it seems a minor factor to those who are victims of our truncated education process.

Michael Tee

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #55 on: September 02, 2008, 07:32:45 PM »
<<Is that how the Lords prayer is handled now?>>

Yeah, it never bothered me or my folks or any of my friends, but the Ontario government dropped it.  I don't give a shit really, it was a waste of everyone's time, but it wasn't a BIG waste of time.

<<No the precident is clear , the offending subject must be dropped as if there were no value in it.>>

Well, plane, when the offending subject is the theory of evolution, it's not gonna be dropped.  The government sized up the potential protest and figured out that it didn't involve any significant number of people, so they made a conscious choice to offend if necessary a small group of ignorant fanatics rather than drop a subject that is a key part of modern scientific thought.  And at the same time they decided not to waste the time of science students by forcing them to learn about non-scientific theories best left to religious school.  Makes sense to me.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #56 on: September 02, 2008, 09:57:16 PM »
I hardly consider you to be a tipical American High school student.
Do you see my point that the depth of influence of Christianity in the development of the USA is being given less emphasis than it deserves?

======================================
I am not a high school student, but I never said I was, and again, if you will look in the typical anthologies of American Literature used in high schools in this country, you will find a sermon by each of these men.

If students were told that the country was greatly influenced by fanatical fire-and-brimstone fundamentalists, that would describe the reality of which you speak. The lazy students will not read these sermons, the others would recognize the gist of their remarks. I am faily certain few converts would be made among the modern generation.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #57 on: September 03, 2008, 12:25:57 AM »
I hardly consider you to be a tipical American High school student.
Do you see my point that the depth of influence of Christianity in the development of the USA is being given less emphasis than it deserves?

======================================
I am not a high school student, but I never said I was, and again, if you will look in the typical anthologies of American Literature used in high schools in this country, you will find a sermon by each of these men.

If students were told that the country was greatly influenced by fanatical fire-and-brimstone fundamentalists, that would describe the reality of which you speak. The lazy students will not read these sermons, the others would recognize the gist of their remarks. I am faily certain few converts would be made among the modern generation.

Do they get that the Abolition movement was the result of a Christian revival and comitted Christians working for decades ?

_JS

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Re: Why McCain is a Genius
« Reply #58 on: September 03, 2008, 12:54:16 PM »
I hardly consider you to be a tipical American High school student.
Do you see my point that the depth of influence of Christianity in the development of the USA is being given less emphasis than it deserves?

======================================
I am not a high school student, but I never said I was, and again, if you will look in the typical anthologies of American Literature used in high schools in this country, you will find a sermon by each of these men.

If students were told that the country was greatly influenced by fanatical fire-and-brimstone fundamentalists, that would describe the reality of which you speak. The lazy students will not read these sermons, the others would recognize the gist of their remarks. I am faily certain few converts would be made among the modern generation.

Do they get that the Abolition movement was the result of a Christian revival and comitted Christians working for decades ?

Reckon they get to read the Southern Baptist sermons claiming that God was the original segregationist and that Africans were the descendants of Ham and therefore inferior to whites?

I'm guessing not.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
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