Author Topic: Dinner with Ahmadinejad  (Read 34682 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

_JS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Salaires legers. Chars lourds.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #90 on: October 01, 2007, 10:13:02 AM »
There's no sense responding to Rich on this at all.

Israel quite clearly does target civilians. Unless you consider dairy farms and apartment buildings, bombed on purpose, to be significant military threats. In fact, they do it quite often.

Of course no one should die in the manner of being bombed, either by the Israelis or Hamas or Hezbollah.

Yet, Rachel Corie was not killed by a bomb. She was literally run over by an armored bulldozer operated by the IDF. It was literally destroying an entire neighborhood of Palestinian homes. Rachel never harmed anyone. She never hurt an Israeli. She never set off any bombs or missiles. She never smuggled any weapons.

She was guilty of the same offense as African-American protesters in Selma, Alabama; Irish-Catholic protesters at the Bogside; and South African blacks at Soweto. She hurt no one and paid for it with her life.

The response was the same as the protesters who died above. The nastiest of the reactionaries said things like "she deserved it."

In fact here are some samples after she was crushed under the IDF bulldozer. These were written to a newspaper in Seattle.

Quote
Typical left-wing garbage!

Quote
Corrie was a na?ve little 'blame America' leftie."

Quote
"You don't stand in front of a bulldozer to stop it, unless you want to die."

Hmmm. Now consider the Chinese man who was always hailed as a hero for standing in front of a tank? What the Chinese tank driver could not do, the IDF bulldozer driver was more than willing to do.


I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

_JS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Salaires legers. Chars lourds.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #91 on: October 01, 2007, 10:13:38 AM »
>>Nah. I just thought some self-described Christians could act like it sometimes.<<

Unlike you, I don't pretend to be something I'm not Oh holy one.

 ::)

Here's the other cheek Rich.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Richpo64

  • Guest
Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #92 on: October 01, 2007, 01:13:46 PM »
>>You're right, Rich. In the American news that you watch, Israel NEVER targets civilians. However, if you set foot outside of this country and watched the news elsewhere, you could watch the civilian targeting in all of its bloody detail.<<

Israel never targets civilians.

You're both lier's. Period.

Richpo64

  • Guest
Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #93 on: October 01, 2007, 01:21:13 PM »
Rachel Corrie

In the wake of a fatal bulldozer incident, irresponsible photo captions and disparate editorial cartoons.


The circumstances of American college student Rachel Corrie's March 16 death beneath an IDF bulldozer in Gaza remain unclear. The key unanswered question: Was Corrie visible and/or audible to the IDF driver just before the accident?

The consumer public got a huge dose of misleading information when Associated Press distributed a photo showing Corrie, standing in (apparently) direct view of the bulldozer driver, dressed in orange and speaking into a megaphone in the direction of the oncoming vehicle.

The AP caption reads: "Rachel was run over Sunday by the bulldozer that she was trying to stop from tearing down a building in the Rafah refugee camp, witnesses said."

See the AP photo at:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030316/168/3j4y0.html

The problem with the AP photo caption is that readers are led to believe that this photo depicts the very scene and moment of the accident. The implication is criminal recklessness on the part of the IDF driver.

In fact, however, this photo was NOT taken in the moments before Corrie's death. Joseph Smith, of the pro-Palestinian International Solidarity Movement, was the photographer and wrote a chronological account of the incident (published on pro-Palestinian websites).

Smith says that the photo of Corrie "standing with megaphone" is ascribed to the time period 2pm-4pm. In addition, during this period, Smith notes that the bulldozer "always stopped in time to avoid injuring them."

At the time of Corrie's death (5pm), Smith describes Corrie as "sitting, with arms waving" (no megaphone), and another colleague holding the megaphone from a distance.

Additionally, one key point that Smith does not mention is that the bulldozers shown in the two photos are different types. The later photo is a bulldozer with much smaller windows, and hence reduced visibility.

Read Smith's account at:
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1284.shtml

Thus, the AP photo and caption fails to note the two most essential factors in determining visibility or lack thereof: 1) Corrie was no longer standing, but had changed to a sitting position, and 2) she was no longer in possession of attention-grabbing megaphone.

When publishing such a photo, AP is obligated to explain details of chronology; in the absence of any information, readers presume that since the bulldozer appears 8-10 feet away from Corrie, the photographer must have snapped the picture moments before the bulldozer hit her.

This photo was published by many of the 15,000 media outlets that AP services. And though the accompanying articles may provide clarifying information, a picture is worth a thousand words. In this case, by not providing a caption that clearly counterbalances the easy "misread," AP has misrepresented Corrie's death and contributed to a worldwide slander of the IDF.



* * *

An example of how the Corrie photo was misused appears in the CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR, which ran this photo caption:

"Death of a protester: Rachel Corrie, wearing a reflective Day-Glo jacket, shouts through a bullhorn at an oncoming Israeli army bulldozer in southern Gaza Sunday moments before it ran her over."
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0318/p06s01-wome.html

"Moments before"?!


Update: below is the text of a clarification from the Christian Science Monitor (April 2):

A number of letter writers have complained that in the March 18 issue the caption of Associated Press photo of American Rachel Corrie was incorrect. The photo was not taken "moments before" she was run over by an Israeli bulldozer, but at least 45 minutes before her death, says Joe Smith, the photographer...
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0402/p06s01-wogn.html

Unfortunately, the photo caption remains uncorrected online at:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0318/p06s01-wome.html

* * *

Meanwhile, CNN.com juxtaposed a pair of "before and after" photos, which implied a particularly ambiguous sense of chronology. But when HonestReporting.com provided additional information, CNN issued a "Caption Clarification." See it at:
http://cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/16/rafah.death/index.html

HonestReporting encourages members to monitor your local media to see if they used the misleading photos, as well as what information was provided in the photo caption and/or article itself to counterbalance any misconceptions.

Indeed, The New York Times issued the following correction:

"A picture caption on March 17 with an article about an American protester who was crushed by an Israeli Army bulldozer in Gaza referred incorrectly to the bulldozer shown. It was one that the protester, Rachel Corrie, had earlier tried to stop from destroying a Palestinian home. It was not the one that killed her."
http://nytimes.com/2003/03/26/pageoneplus/corrections.html

---- DANZIGER CARTOON ----

In the wake of this media misstep, nationally syndicated political cartoonist Jeff Danzinger issued a cartoon worthy of appearance in the most entrenched anti-Semitic Mideast rags. Danziger depicts Prime Minister Sharon as a satanic bulldozer driver, burying his critics under a mound of dirt.

See the cartoon at:
http://www.danzigercartoons.com/cmp/2003/danziger1600.html

Danzinger's presentation of Sharon as a murderer of political opposition is particularly troubling in light of the fact that Sharon's is the only truly democratic government in the Mideast, allowing -- even encouraging -- full and vocal opposition. And this at a time when America is sacrificing its soldiers in order to promote democracy in the region.

Danziger's cartoons are distributed by the Chicago Tribune Media Syndicate, whose media relations director can be contacted at:
kbremer@tribune.com

Danziger himself may be reached at:
jeff@danzigercartoons.com

---- GHANDI AND KING? ----

Meanwhile, the Toledo (Ohio) Blade published an editorial that compares Corrie with none less than Mahatma Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr.

Did Corrie truly continue the legacy of Ghandi and King?

As noted in the previous HonestReporting communique, Corrie was photographed last month burning an American flag in Gaza before young schoolchildren (http://honestreporting.com/graphics/articles/corrie.jpg). One wonders if the two true giants of human rights struggle would be flattered by the comparison with the woman who appears in these photos.

Read the Toledo Blade editorial at:
http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2003103190095

Comments to the Managing Editor, Kurt Franck:
kfranck@theblade.com

---- CAMPUS DOUBLE STANDARD ----

A University of Maryland student newspaper has caused a stir by publishing an editorial cartoon that depicts Corrie's actions as the definition of stupidity for protecting a "gang of terrorists."

See the cartoon at:
http://www.inform.umd.edu/News/Diamondback/archives/2003/03/18/cartoon.html

In response, Univ. of Maryland students staged an overnight sit-in protest, the academic administration said the cartoon "embarrassed the university" (see: http://www.inform.umd.edu/News/Diamondback/archives/2003/03/21/news3.html), and Maryland's U.S. Congressman Albert Wynn publicly expressed his criticism.

Without addressing the question of the editorial prudence of publishing the cartoon, we ask: If the players in the event were reversed, and a deceased Israeli were presented as "stupid," would the cartoon have elicited such protests of outrage from campus, administrative, and public officials? We highly doubt it.

Protest this double standard by writing to Univ. of Maryland President Dan Mote: awylie@deans.umd.edu

One step further: Learn more about becoming a campus activist in support of Israel at: http://www.israelactivism.com


Richpo64

  • Guest
Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #94 on: October 01, 2007, 01:42:20 PM »
>>There's no sense responding to Rich on this at all. <<

True, you need not reply. I'm not interested in your lies.

>>Israel quite clearly does target civilians. Unless you consider dairy farms and apartment buildings, bombed on purpose, to be significant military threats. In fact, they do it quite often.<<

Lies. The murderers JS so dearly loves hide amoung civilians, most of whom give aid and comfort to them. These people are not noncombatants. Israeli soldiers go to extrodinanry lengths to protect civilians. Lengths that get them killed.  It's not their fault terorists have no problem using their children as human shields.

>>Of course no one should die in the manner of being bombed, either by the Israelis or Hamas or Hezbollah.<<

I seriously doubt you mind Israeli women and children being blown to bits on their way to school or the market. After all, they target "Palestinian" civilians.

>>Yet, Rachel Corie was not killed by a bomb. She was literally run over by an armored bulldozer operated by the IDF. It was literally destroying an entire neighborhood of Palestinian homes. Rachel never harmed anyone. She never hurt an Israeli. She never set off any bombs or missiles. She never smuggled any weapons.<<

A neighborhood which was a haven for terrorists who killed hundreds of Israeli civiilans.

Corrie was a member of the International Solidarity Movement. See below:

Origins of the International Solidarity Movement (ISM)
 
Founded by American citizens Huwaida Arraf and Adam Shapiro (her husband) and Canadian-Israeli Neta Golan, ISM's regimen involves Western activists going to Palestinian areas for orientation meetings with Palestinian organizers and to discuss upcoming protests and actions. George Rishmawi, who heads the Grassroots International Protection for Palestinians, helps coordinate and train ISM volunteers once they arrive.

Volunteers then engage in such tactics as obstructing the activities of the Israeli Army. Since August 2001, hundreds of ISM volunteers have made their way to Palestinian areas to support Palestinians by placing themselves in front of Israeli Army vehicles, removing concrete boundaries from roads, confronting Israeli troops, and in some cases, staying in the homes of suicide bombers.

The ISM received its first substantial media coverage in spring 2002, when volunteers slipped into Yasir Arafat's compound, bypassing the Israeli military that surrounded it. In May, ISM members executed their second major action when they entered the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem during a military standoff between Israeli and Palestinian forces.

ISM Ties to Violent Groups

 
Although the ISM claims to be a non-violent group, some of its volunteers recognize violence as a legitimate means of achieving Palestinian goals. In an article in the Palestinian Chronicle in 2002, ISM co-founders Adam Shapiro and Huwaida Arraf wrote: "We accept that Palestinians have a right to resist with arms, as they are an occupied people upon whom force and violence is being used." Palestinian resistance, they say, "must take on a variety of characteristics - both nonviolent and violent."

The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs has warned that ISM activity "at times" is "under the auspices of Palestinian terrorist organizations." For example:


Two British suicide bombers met with ISM members before blowing up a popular bar in Tel Aviv near the U.S. embassy in April 2003. The ISM claimed that the only contact it had with the suicide bombers "was a brief social encounter" at an ISM apartment in Rafah. However, five days before the Tel Aviv bombing, the bombers attended a memorial service in Rafah for ISM volunteer Rachel Corrie, an American college student crushed to death in 2003 while trying to block demolition of a Palestinian home in Gaza by an Israeli army bulldozer (the Israeli Army's investigation of the Corrie death concluded that the soldiers operating the bulldozer had no intention of harming her).

 
In March 2003, Israeli troops raided the ISM's West Bank offices in Jenin and captured a suspected member of the terrorist organization Islamic Jihad. The Israeli army identified Shadi Suqiyeh, who was hiding in the ISM office, as a senior member of Islamic Jihad who had planned a number of foiled attacks on Israelis. A statement released by the ISM soon after the incident explained that Suqiyeh was brought into the apartment by an ISM volunteer "concerned about his welfare" because "under Israeli military curfew, Palestinians spotted in the streets are shot on sight."
 

More ties to hard-line Palestinian groups were revealed three months later, when ISM issued a press release inviting activists to "join the ISM, the Palestinian National and Islamic Forces and the Apartheid Wall Defense Committee?to block construction of the apartheid wall" during the Freedom Summer 2003 campaign. The Palestinian National and Islamic Forces is a group made up of members of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the hard-edged wing of Arafat's Fatah organization.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

>>She was guilty of the same offense as African-American protesters in Selma, Alabama; Irish-Catholic protesters at the Bogside; and South African blacks at Soweto. She hurt no one and paid for it with her life.<<

Disgusting. Corrie suppurt directly lead to more dead Israeli children. Only a liberal could compare support for terrorists to the Civil Rights of Blacks. Corrie was just another useful idiot to the terrorists cause (Much like you JS).

More on the Corrie lies:

 
Rachel Corrie, One Year Later

By Steven Plaut
FrontPageMagazine.com | 4/13/2004

The one-year anniversary of the demise of Rachel Corrie has not passed without fanfare. Rachel?s mother and others on the Left have observed the cosmic event by condemning alleged Israeli (and U.S.) intransigence in the investigation of the death. In the Boston Globe of March 18, 2004, Rachel Corrie's mother wrote:

 
Rachel was an unarmed peace activist trying to prevent the demolition of the home of a Palestinian pharmacist, his wife, and three children. She believed that nonviolent direct action against the Israeli occupation would make Palestinians, and also Israelis and Americans, more secure. Rachel stood there to protect a home and family in Gaza because the United States and Israel rejected a UN proposal to send international human rights monitors there. International activists went instead. Rachel stood there protesting illegal home demolitions that the United States opposes on the record yet fails to stop ? destruction that we support with billions in annual military aid to Israel for bulldozers, Apache helicopters, F-16s, and more.

 
She went on to demand that the United States run its own investigation into her daughter's death, and reject the conclusions from Israel's own official investigation, which concluded that Corrie had been struck accidentally by a bulldozer operator who was unable to see her, blaming Corrie herself for blocking the bulldozer in the middle of its operation. In other statements, the Corrie family has been far more bellicose, denouncing Israel for maintaining an ?illegal occupation of Palestinian lands.?
 

What are we to make of this new Corrie family jihad? For those whose memories fail them in this matter, let me refresh things.  Rachel Corrie was a young fanatic college student from Washington State, who decided she could make the world a better place by showing her solidarity with Middle East terrorism and Palestinian mass murderers.  She joined the International Solidarity Movement, a communist-anarchist group who openly support Palestinian terrorism. Corrie set up shop in the Gaza Strip, where she and her ISM comrades spent their days trying to harass and provoke Israeli troops and interfere with Israel's anti-terrorist military operations. They would set up obstacles on roads to prevent Israeli troops and otherwise assist and defend the terrorists. The ISM is probably the campus organization most upfront about its support for the Palestinian ?right? to engage in terrorism, and that is saying quite a lot these days!

 
In one confrontation with the Israelis, Corrie was trying to block an army bulldozer that was knocking down homes of terrorists and buildings hiding tunnels through which weapons and explosives were being smuggled into Israel. These tunnels brought weapons from Egypt to the Gaza city of Rafiah. One of these homes might have been that which Corrie's parents describe as that of an ?innocent pharmacist.? Corrie and her ISM comrades wanted to help protect the Gaza smuggling tunnels. Rachel Corrie put herself in a position where the bulldozer driver could not see her, and she was dragged under the heavy machine. She died in a PLO ambulance or hospital shortly thereafter. The ISM then issued a host of "eyewitness" reports about the accident, which turned out to be fabrications. The simple fact of the matter was that Corrie had figured the Israeli bulldozer driver could be cowed into backing off if he saw her blocking his access to the terrorist house; she probably figured correctly, except that he did not see her from his limited-visibility window in the rig.


Ever since, Rachel Corrie has become the matron martyr saint for the pro-terrorism Left, the Joan of Arc of Palestinian terrorism. Her ISM friends declared she was "murdered" intentionally by Israel (see for example http://www.rachelcorrie.org/ ).  Her death has been exploited by the Bash-Israel movement and by anti-Semites all over the world, as a means to delegitimize Israel. The PLO adopted her as mascot, declaring that she died ?fighting Israel's security fence?; never mind that Israel did not begin building the security fence until well after she was dead.
 

Later other ISM activists were also injured when they put themselves in the middle of firefights, started when the PLO would fire on Israelis, and ? like Corrie ? they were injured and one other died trying to protect those terrorists from Israelis shooting back. In this other case of a death of ISM member Tom Hurndall, the ISM led a worldwide campaign to demonize the soldier who shot him. Ironically, it turned out the soldier who shot Hurndall was an Arab Bedouin patriot living in Israel and serving in the Israeli military.
 

Corrie's own parents have gone on their own revenge, touring the world to demonize Israel, and represent daughter Rachel as a "victim of Israel's illegal occupation." They and other ISM supporters have been organizing a boycott of the Caterpiller Corporation, because it sells machines to Israel, including the one with which Corrie chose to face down a year ago. The Corrie parents insist that Rachel was there to promote non-violence and brotherly love. But Rachel and her ISM friends of course believed in nothing of the sort and were doing nothing of the sort. The official ISM web site endorses "armed struggle" by Palestinians, which means random mass murders of Israeli children.

 
Corrie died as a result of her own stupidity. She was in Gaza to help promote Palestinian terrorism and to prevent Israel from protecting its own citizens. She died protecting the illegal tunnels into Gaza from Egypt, through which the suicide bombers obtained their materials. The most lasting images of Corrie was of her face contorted with rage and as she burned an American flag. When Reuters reported that Palestinians "honored" her after her death in a "symbolic funeral" by flying U.S. flags, James Taranto from the Wall Street Journal remarked that if Corrie were still alive, no doubt she'd have burned the flags. Even the far-Left Mother Jones magazine considers her a dangerous and deluded little twit. The Israeli army investigated the death and concluded that Corrie had effectively committed suicide. Taranto also suggested that Corrie be awarded the "Idiotarian of the Year Award" for playing chicken with a huge earth-mover.


The ISM is not simply an innocent, if evil, fringe debating society.  Within Israeli territories, its members have actively collaborated with terrorists.  They hid weapons and wanted terrorists in their offices. The local ISM offices hosted two Moslem suicide bombers from the UK, who had entered Israel as "peace activists," only to blow a Tel Aviv bar to smithereens the next day.


The ISM is so closely coordinated with the PLO that it is for all intents and purposes nothing more than a PLO front group (which means that Rachel Corrie in effect died as a member of the PLO).  More recently, ISM trouble-makers have been trying to sabotage Israel's security fence, lest the fence prevent some Palestinian mass murderers from blowing up Israeli children and other civilians.
 

Yet despite the open endorsement of terror by ISM, it continues to enjoy U.S. tax-exempt status as a "charity" and continues to enjoy gifts of megabucks from the usual culprits who fund the pro-terrorist Left. The liberal press continues to coo over the ISM as if it were a "peace group."


The Israeli government has been too pusillanimous, cowed by its fear of bad press, to send the ISM trouble makers packing. While the ISM demonizes Israel, the very fact that it has been allowed to continue to operate its provocations within Israeli-controlled territory attests to how liberal and tolerant Israel is and has been. It is no coincidence that the same ISM people protecting homes of suicide bombers in the Gaza Strip and West Bank would never dare place themselves in jeopardy by blocking, say, U.S. troops arresting Saddam Hussein in his Tikrit rat-hole, or al-Qaeda facilities in Afghanistan. The Corrie parents are not urging other deluded young undergraduates to rush to Fallujah and Najaf to defend the homes of Iraqi terrorists under siege by American GIs to protest American "occupation" of Iraq. The ISM designer-jean "revolutionaries" and mall-Marxists would be mowed down mercilessly if they tried interfering with anti-terrorism operations anywhere in the world but Israel.
 

In the past year, Corrie and the other ISM supporters were lionized  by the Western media. The Europeans and the American liberal newspapers continue to commemorate Rachel Corrie through attacking Israel every time it tries to deter terror by knocking down the home of a suicide bomber or by tearing down houses protecting smuggling tunnels or Gaza rocket production workshops  (although more than 200 Palestinian rockets were fired into Israeli civilian areas from the Gaza Strip last year alone). And some of the most ferocious denunciations of Israel's actions against terrorist homes have come from Britain - from the BBC, the Economist, the New Statesman, and the British Foreign Office.


I mention the British in particular because a few days ago, the British government responded to the murders of two school children there by demolishing the house of the murderer. Yes, the British blew up the house of a mass murderer! The very same British media who denounce Israel as a "terrorist state" every time it blows up the home of a Palestinian suicide bomber have actually celebrated and justified an identical demolition, smack in the middle of the UK, no less!
 

You see, in the town of Soham, which is on the West Bank of the River Great Ouse in the eastern UK, one Ian Huntley had murdered two schoolgirl settlers. A few days ago, the local township demolished the property as a way to deter other would-be mass murderers and child-molesters.  Initiators of the demolition felt the house was a painful reminder to all of a horrific crime, and so it should be erased from the face of the earth. Moreover, this came in the tracks of other properties of killers and murderers in the UK that were also demolished in a similar fashion.

 
Now where were the ISM pro-terrorists? Why were they not protecting the home of the murderer of the two girls as a gesture to prove their devotion to love and peace? How come the Bash-Israel urchins were not out marching down the avenue to protest this Soham war crime and genocide by the British authorities? Why weren't the Corrie parents denouncing Britain's illegal occupation of the Isle of Man and Jersey? Why did no one report this abuse of human rights to the World Court in the Hague, or urge the Belgians to indict Tony Blair for this crime?


Shortly after her death, columnist Dennis Prager wrote to Corrie's native Washingtonian parents: "So, Olympia, grieve for Rachel Corrie's parents, but spare us the hagiography. Rachel Corrie died fighting for . . . a Palestinian group dedicated, in its own words, to "armed struggle" against Israel. She ended up being a useful idiot for, and one more victim of, Palestinian terror."   Nothing could sum things up better.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven Plaut is a professor at the Graduate School of the Business Administration at the University of Haifa and is a columnist for the Jewish Press. A collection of his commentaries on the current events in Israel can be found on his "blog" at www.stevenplaut.blogspot.com.


sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #95 on: October 01, 2007, 01:58:18 PM »
>>Israel quite clearly does target civilians. Unless you consider dairy farms and apartment buildings, bombed on purpose, to be significant military threats. In fact, they do it quite often.<<

Israeli soldiers go to extrodinanry lengths to protect civilians. Lengths that get them killed.  It's not their fault terorists have no problem using their children as human shields.

Minus the obvious unjustified hyperbole aimed at Js, Rich does have a point here.  Often what the MSM and propogandists would claim as "targeting civilians" is nearly always that of terrorists hiding amongst the civilian population, giving them a 2 fold advantage, better cover, and when they are targeted, a propaganda boondoggle of PR, in which to claim "see, the Israelis are targeting civilians".
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Henny

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1075
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #96 on: October 01, 2007, 02:09:14 PM »
>>You're right, Rich. In the American news that you watch, Israel NEVER targets civilians. However, if you set foot outside of this country and watched the news elsewhere, you could watch the civilian targeting in all of its bloody detail.<<

Israel never targets civilians.

You're both lier's. Period.

And you're living in a fantasy world.

Richpo64

  • Guest
Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #97 on: October 01, 2007, 02:11:21 PM »
You should be ashamed of yourself.

You've become a  terrorist dupe. A fool. A useful idiot.

Richpo64

  • Guest
Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #98 on: October 01, 2007, 02:13:28 PM »
>> Minus the obvious unjustified hyperbole aimed at Js ... <<

I'll refer you to Ann Coulter sirs. She said, "You dont want to be a member of their club. We are in a tooth-and-claw battle for our nation. This is no time to parse, nuance, or clarify words. Liberals dont rely on words. They judge us on a jurisprudence of epithets. Fight fire with fire. Just call them traitors and let them sort it out."

Henny

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1075
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #99 on: October 01, 2007, 02:14:43 PM »
You should be ashamed of yourself.

You've become a  terrorist dupe. A fool. A useful idiot.

You are incapable of thinking for yourself. You parrot Front Page Magazine and Ann Coulter and call it the whole truth. I am only suggesting that you take a look around at the bigger picture.

Richpo64

  • Guest
Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #100 on: October 01, 2007, 02:24:17 PM »
>>You are incapable of thinking for yourself. You parrot Front Page Magazine and Ann Coulter and call it the whole truth. I am only suggesting that you take a look around at the bigger picture.<<

Typical.

I have read hundreds of books, and thousands of articles on the history of the Middle East and terrorism in particular. I am better read than just about anyone in this place. It's clear you have drunk deeply of the Kool aide. You gave up thinking for yourself after the rice hit the pavement.  You can't possible be anything other than a useful idiot and spew the kind of terrorist propaganda you do. I understand why you do it. But please, don't pretend to have access to a bigger picture when it's clear where your opinion comes from.


Henny

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1075
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #101 on: October 01, 2007, 02:51:34 PM »
>>Israel quite clearly does target civilians. Unless you consider dairy farms and apartment buildings, bombed on purpose, to be significant military threats. In fact, they do it quite often.<<

Israeli soldiers go to extrodinanry lengths to protect civilians. Lengths that get them killed.  It's not their fault terorists have no problem using their children as human shields.

Minus the obvious unjustified hyperbole aimed at Js, Rich does have a point here.  Often what the MSM and propogandists would claim as "targeting civilians" is nearly always that of terrorists hiding amongst the civilian population, giving them a 2 fold advantage, better cover, and when they are targeted, a propaganda boondoggle of PR, in which to claim "see, the Israelis are targeting civilians".


Not necessarily. In the study of military strategy throughout history and into the current era, the bombing of civilian population centers is a well accepted strategy - meant to maximize pressure on the people so that they will pressure the government.

Forget that we're talking about Israel here - it could be any country in the world. Put under this lense, it is entirely likely that civilians are deliberatly being targeted. In fact, if you were to study declassified documentation from any war, any country, you would find that this is, indeed, the case.

_JS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Salaires legers. Chars lourds.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #102 on: October 01, 2007, 03:01:21 PM »
White flags, not a legitimate target
Israel must take responsibility for the dreadful human toll in Lebanon, says Peter Bouckaert in Beirut

Peter Bouckaert
Monday July 31, 2006

Guardian Unlimited

Day after day, Israeli government spokesmen insist that everything they are doing accords with international humanitarian law. Endless communiqu?s insist that Israel's behaviour is "proportionate". Let us be blunt: those claims are fantasy, as the carnage in Qana has shown once again.
I have seen my share of modern wars, as a researcher at Human Rights Watch. In Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq, we found many civilian casualties due to bombing campaigns. Civilians fleeing attacks were hit by mistake. In Iraq, US bombs often hit civilian homes, hours after Saddam Hussein or members of his inner circle had left, missing their legitimate targets but killing civilians. In Lebanon it is a very different picture. Time after time, Israel strikes at civilian homes and civilian vehicles attempting to flee the besieged southern border zone, killing families without any military objective in sight.

In an extraordinary, and extraordinarily revealing comment, the Israeli Justice Minister, Haim Ramon, reportedly said, "All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hizbullah." So if you take to the roads to flee, you are a terrorist - who else would travel the southern roads now? And, if you stay at home because the danger is so great, you are also a terrorist. For the innocent civilian, there is literally no way out.

Take the example of Manal, a 22-year-old housewife, who had just arrived in Beirut when I met her a few days ago. For nearly two weeks, Israeli warplanes struck Manal's border village of Aitaroun, obliterating homes and families. A Canadian-Lebanese family vacationing in the village was killed; the next day, another rocket destroyed a home 100 meters away from Manal's house, killing at least nine members of a family. So many were killed in her village that she finds it difficult to remember all the names.

When the Israelis dropped leaflets instructing all villages south of the Litani River to evacuate immediately "for your own safety," Manal and dozens of her neighbours set off in three cars, waving white flags. As they left, an Israeli warplane dropped bombs 10 meters in front of and behind the convoy, which raced on. As far too many Lebanese civilians have found, Manal's experience is not exceptional, on the contrary.

In another case, Israeli forces struck the home of a Shi'a cleric Sheikh Adil Mohammad Akash, who was reportedly affiliated with Hizbullah but without a direct military role. Even if the sheikh had been a fighter, the bomb killed him, his wife, their ten children, and the family's Sri Lankan maid. The ratio of twelve for one reveals Israel's disregard for civilian lives.

Although mistakes are made in the fog of fighting, the pattern of Israeli behavior in southern Lebanon suggests a deliberate policy. My notebook overflows with reports of civilian deaths, day after day.

Israel blames Hizbullah for the massive civilian toll in Lebanon, claiming that they are hiding the rockets they are firing at Israel, in civilian homes, and that they are fighting from within the civilian population. This is a convenient excuse. Human Rights Watch has consistently documented Hizbullah's war crimes, including deliberate and indiscriminate attacks on Israeli civilians, as well as the taking of hostages. But our investigations have not found evidence to support Israeli allegations that Hizbullah are intentionally endangering Lebanese civilians by systematically fighting from civilian positions. We can't exclude the possibility that it happens - but time and again villagers tell us that Hizbullah is fighting from the hills. Meanwhile, the homes hit by Israel have only civilians in them.

The current Israeli actions are not only wrong, but - short of compelling evidence to the contrary, which so far is nowhere to be found - also war crimes. Israel's leaders, and their friends elsewhere in the world, must face up to that truth.

? Peter Bouckaert is Emergencies Director at Human Rights Watch

Guardian Unlimited ? Guardian News and Media Limited 2007
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #103 on: October 01, 2007, 03:01:41 PM »
Minus the obvious unjustified hyperbole aimed at Js, Rich does have a point here.  Often what the MSM and propogandists would claim as "targeting civilians" is nearly always that of terrorists hiding amongst the civilian population, giving them a 2 fold advantage, better cover, and when they are targeted, a propaganda boondoggle of PR, in which to claim "see, the Israelis are targeting civilians".

Not necessarily.

Quite, necessarily


In the study of military strategy throughout history and into the current era, the bombing of civilian population centers is a well accepted strategy - meant to maximize pressure on the people so that they will pressure the government.

AND MORE SO, to target terrorists that have been identified, but hiding amongst the civilian population.  I'm not condoning the backwards thinking of trying to apply political pressure via bombing of the civilian populace.  If THAT were the primary focus however, Israel would be carpet bombing blocks upon blocks of apartment buildings, churches, schools, to "maximize" pressure on the people.  Point is, they don't.  Point is, as Rich has referenced, they try hard to avoid innocent civilian casualties, vs the terrorists who take great pains in speficially targeting innocent civilians, be it buses, marketplaces, churches, even schools.

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Salaires legers. Chars lourds.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #104 on: October 01, 2007, 03:04:12 PM »
Read the above Sirs.

I know that you and many Americans want to give the Israelis the benefit of the doubt. They are very much a western nation. I understand. I really do.

But it simply is not the case. They fight a very different style warfare than we do. They do not consider all life to be worthwhile. It is not the same. They fight a very Middle Eastern style warfare.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.