Author Topic: Dinner with Ahmadinejad  (Read 34681 times)

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_JS

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Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #105 on: October 01, 2007, 03:21:10 PM »
An Interesting Article from an Israeli:

We also target civilians

Aims served by Israeli arms no loftier than those served by Palestinian pipe bombs

Idan Landau

The "al-Sanabel" television station in Nablus almost aired an exclusive report this week: An elite unit of the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades raided an Israel Military Industries plant in the coastal plain and uncovered sophisticated weapons labs. The arms that were confiscated include 300 air-to-surface missiles for helicopters, 20 tons of plastic explosives, one bullet-proof bulldozer, and six Merkava 4 tanks.

The report that was almost aired noted that this achieved strategic balance against the weapons labs uncovered in the raid on Nablus, where forces confiscated five pipe bombs, one LAW rocket, a large explosive device, and four bags of fertilizer used for bomb-making.

The report, as noted, was not aired. Not only because Israel Military Industries labs were not uncovered, but also because "al-Sanabel" was put out of action. The IDF detained the station manager and confiscated its broadcasting equipment. Why is the IDF assaulting journalists and media outlets? This is apparently an irrelevant question and an almost immoral one under the current climate.

Why did the IDF impose a siege on the government hospital in Nablus and prevent wounded Palestinians from being taken there? Why does the IDF take over a school and turn it into a Shin Bet interrogation center? What was the sin committed by Anan al-Tabibi, who was shot in the head by a sniper while in his own backyard? Again, illogical questions. We have a war, and in war there is no reason to be strict when it comes to respecting life of civilians.

The thing is, this is untrue. This is not a war, but rather, a unilateral invasion into a Palestinian town, and even in wars there are explicit bans on unnecessary harm to the civilian population. The IDF has not heard about it; the Palestinian population, including its assets and needs, are like thin air for the invading forces.

It is doubtful whether anyone in Israel was stunned by the uncovered weapons labs in Nablus. It is even more difficult to believe that anyone is shocked by the strategic threat faced by the State of Israel in light of the quantity and ridiculous quality of weapons that were confiscated.

In fact, what were we expecting? That Palestinians accept our aerial raids and tank shells with a bare chest and an olive branch? This is a violent conflict and each side makes sure to arm itself to the teeth.

The tank shells produced by Israel Military Industries do not serve loftier goals than those served by pipe bombs in Nablus. Both are used, maliciously and arbitrarily, against innocent civilians. The difference is merely in power: The immense damage caused to West Bank towns by Israel's military technology cannot be compared to the limited damage caused by Palestinian terrorism in Israel's cities.

Many Israelis cling to the over-used argument that "yes, but we don't mean to harm civilians, and they do." After 5,000 killed Palestinians (including about 1,000 minors,) 50,000 injured Palestinians, 30,000 razed homes, and 13 million (!) uprooted olive trees, this justification sounds like a bad joke and nothing but. It's better to remain silent in shame. 

No dialogue with Arab world

We say that terrorism needs no excuses, only opportunities: It appears the IDF's periodic invasions into West Bank towns and the extensive destruction they leave in their wake do not need excuses. And still, it's difficult not to connect the current military activism to the diplomatic freeze we've seen, particularly in recent weeks.
 
Within an amazingly short period of time, the Olmert government managed to slam shut almost every possible door for dialogue with the Arab world. The Mecca Agreement on Palestinian national unity "did not deliver the good," officials in Jerusalem grumbled. With the Syrians we are not even allowed to make initial contacts, lest we irritate Big Brother Bush; even the release of abducted IDF soldier Gilad Shalit is not urgent enough for the government.

Diplomatic envoys are running around European capitals and in Cairo, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice comes and goes, and everything is at a standstill.

Actually, some things are moving, the same things that are always moving ? the settlements. More than a 1,000 new residential units are being built, while a police headquarters was recently established in the E1 area slated to connect Maaleh Adumim to Jerusalem and detach once and for all the northern West Bank from its south; meanwhile, the fence continues to expand eastward.
 
This is unpleasant, so Olmert and Peretz sit there sweating and wondering: How do we get out of this mess? The international community is already starting to doubt Israel's willingness to reach a peace agreement. The Israeli public is bored, and is already fed up with the Zeilers and Winograds.

The Esterina Tartman spin barely lasted a day and a half. And suddenly, Army Chief Gabi Ashkenazi bursts in with a sparkle in his eyes: I have an idea! How about we invade Nablus? We'll blow up a few houses, come back with five pipe bombs, the world will see what kind of scum we are dealing with here, and the people of Israel will again be proud. Hmmm, says Olmert. Hmmm, Peretz agrees.

Idan Landau is a Linguistics lecturer at Ben Gurion University. He spent time in prison for refusing to serve in Gaza or the West Bank

I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Mr_Perceptive

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Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #106 on: October 01, 2007, 03:34:01 PM »
You should be ashamed of yourself.

You've become a  terrorist dupe. A fool. A useful idiot.

You are incapable of thinking for yourself. You parrot Front Page Magazine and Ann Coulter and call it the whole truth. I am only suggesting that you take a look around at the bigger picture.

He's not worth it Henny.

He hasn't read "hundreds of books" or "thousands of articles." He has yet to demonstrate any grasp of any knowledge on the history of the Middle East in any relevant way.

He uses the language of the extreme right, which incidentally comprises Lenin's oft-repeated phrase "useful idiot" an expression that is used by those who have no debate beyond name calling and egregious displays of hatred.

This guy is not worth the time, nor effort of any serious discussion. I would even go on to say that Knute makes for a far better conversationalist.

A person so filled with hate and bile obviously has some personal problems that he comes here to take them out on others. All I can say is that it is better that he does it here than doing so to a real person. I don't know what he gets taught at church, but it is not Christianity and sure as hell is not love thy neighbor and love thy enemy.

Pure vitriolic hate. I genuinely feel sorry for you Rich. Are you divorced?


"Are you divorced?"

Totally uncalled for, socialist. It is this shit why my buddy, The Professor, quit this forum. I could  call you a pussy fence sitter but I don't. As such, you shouldn't ask Rich this inflmmatory question. You disagree philiosophically, fine. To infer his marital status has anything to do wtih his debating style is pitiful. It is like me asking why your microscopic penis is even useful. Neither are relavant to the topic at hand.

Therefore, why not just agree to disagree and move on?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 03:52:37 PM by Mr_Perceptive »

Henny

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Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #107 on: October 01, 2007, 03:57:01 PM »
You should be ashamed of yourself.

You've become a  terrorist dupe. A fool. A useful idiot.

You are incapable of thinking for yourself. You parrot Front Page Magazine and Ann Coulter and call it the whole truth. I am only suggesting that you take a look around at the bigger picture.

He's not worth it Henny.

He hasn't read "hundreds of books" or "thousands of articles." He has yet to demonstrate any grasp of any knowledge on the history of the Middle East in any relevant way.

He uses the language of the extreme right, which incidentally comprises Lenin's oft-repeated phrase "useful idiot" an expression that is used by those who have no debate beyond name calling and egregious displays of hatred.

This guy is not worth the time, nor effort of any serious discussion. I would even go on to say that Knute makes for a far better conversationalist.

A person so filled with hate and bile obviously has some personal problems that he comes here to take them out on others. All I can say is that it is better that he does it here than doing so to a real person. I don't know what he gets taught at church, but it is not Christianity and sure as hell is not love thy neighbor and love thy enemy.

Pure vitriolic hate. I genuinely feel sorry for you Rich. Are you divorced?


"Are you divorced?"

Totally uncalled for, socialist. It is this shit why my buddy, The Professor, quit this forum. I could  call you a pussy fence sitter but I don't. As such, you shouldn't ask Rich this inflmmatory question. You disagree philiosophically, fine. To infer his marital status has anything to do wtih his debating style is pitiful. It is like me asking why your microscopic penis is even useful. Neither are relavant to the topic at hand.

Therefore, why not just agree to disagree and move on?

I take it you haven't read Rich's comments to JS over the past few weeks. If you had, I am sure you would have chastised Rich the same way.

Mr_Perceptive

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Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #108 on: October 01, 2007, 04:04:15 PM »
Actually, he might be little inflammatory for me, but there are gems nonetheless to be found there.I have found some of what he says to be vlaid.  I am inflammatory as well, but not as systemically.

Whatever, if JS can't take it, then he needn't respond to Rich. Just because Rich is infllamatory does not mean he doesn't bring some merit to the forum. That Navy swabbie, Plane, just last week or so posted a message about liking to see a wide range of diverse opinions. Okay, so you got it!

So, took upo for him in that earlier flap with the Professor, and now you do so again. If JS has balls, he can take up for himself. Or is this like singing in harmony?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 04:10:05 PM by Mr_Perceptive »

_JS

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Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #109 on: October 01, 2007, 04:09:11 PM »
Well first of all Professor, you clearly have not left the forum.

Secondly, it probably was unfair on my part, but I was asking honestly - not just to stir the pot. Then again, it is none of my business.

If you all think I am being unfair, I'll delete my comments. That's fine and no skin off my teeth.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Mr_Perceptive

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Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #110 on: October 01, 2007, 04:16:16 PM »
Whatever. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy.

As far as being the Professor, I doubt you can browser fake cookies, but I could be mistaken. I am NOT a computer expert. BT could probably track my address or whatever to determine I am who I say I am, but then again, I really don't give a shit what you think anyway.

My point was two-pronged. First, you criticize Rich for being inflammatory and yet you are as well, and, second, that a wide range of views is what this forum is all about.

I have been here a few short weeks and I see a wide diversity of views. I happen to like that. If I wanted singular points of view, I would join another USMC forum.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 04:36:13 PM by Mr_Perceptive »

_JS

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Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #111 on: October 01, 2007, 04:26:42 PM »
I haven't prevented Rich from expressing his views, so I don't understand where your diversity diatribe is coming from. He is free to say whatever he likes and as you've seen he takes full advantage of it.

You're free to say what you like as well.

I notice that in your view I am free to be attacked consistently, but if I respond, you suddenly feel the need to pounce.

I also find it interesting that you cherish a diversity of views, but then don't give a shit what another person thinks.

Hypocrisy indeed.

I tell you hat, I'll delete the offending post, since it clearly bothers you. I apologise.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Mr_Perceptive

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Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #112 on: October 01, 2007, 04:44:52 PM »
Well, I DO want to hear a diversty of views, whether I agree with them or not. I happen to agree with some of what Rich says, in fact, apparently a lot more than you and Henny do. I think, and I could be worng ,that you mistake his enthusiasm for inaccuracy. I find some accuracy in many of his postings.

Whether you delete it is up to you. I do not care either way.

See, here's the scoop: do you or do you not hold yourself to a standard that is different than Rich's? If so, then do not respond in kind. The old 7 x 70 rule might apply...

Now, to the charge:

It is apparent then to all parties here in this Forum that much injustice has been done in the Middle East. So then, what REALISTIC measures might be taken to reach accomodation? A joint U.S/U.N./Isreal, Syria/Jordan,etc conference to discuss matters at hand with "encouragmenrt" from the more indirect stakeholders (e.g. the U.S. pressuring Isreal ot reach accomodation and Syria the same with thier proxies and so on...)? What? land for peace sapws or finanical incentives or ?????
« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 05:08:53 PM by Mr_Perceptive »

_JS

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Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #113 on: October 01, 2007, 04:56:38 PM »
Honestly, in the long-term I don't think it will matter.

As Zbigniew Brzezinski stated: "two communities living side by side but repressively separated, with one enjoying prosperity and seizing the lands of the other, and the other living in poverty and deprivationis an outcome which must be avoided."

The situation is similar to South Africa in many ways, except that the prosperous Israelis are not so outnumbered by the deprived Palestinians. But, Israelis are very gradually coming around to the view that what their government is doing is not right. Apartheid is a very short-term and brutal solution. I don't believe it will be accepted in the long-term and eventually a restoration of balance will occur.

Now, how bloody will that be? That will depend entirely on how events unfold between now and then. It could be like Northern Ireland and gradually the people themselves tire of the ceaseless violence. It could be like Southern Rhodesia and extremists hold on to the agenda of both sides in a bitter and bloody dispute. Right now it looks to be towards that latter end of the spectrum, but I hope that eventually it will move towards the former.

I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #114 on: October 01, 2007, 05:31:16 PM »
Israel deliberately bombed apartment buildings in Lebanon. They have destroyed thousands of Palestinians' homes, and if it were not for the fact that American and Israeli media cannot be banned from the scenes of their atrocities, it is clear that they would commit even worse crimes. The Palestinians are poor and weak and desperate. The israelis are in control. Many more Palestinians have been killed by Israelis than vice versa.

Rich, you are not convincing anyone, nor will you ever convince anyone.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #115 on: October 01, 2007, 06:41:28 PM »
Bad News From Israel - the Glasgow University Media Group
http://www.palestineonlinestore.com/books/badnews.htm

I just heard about this study on the radio this afternoon and I only tuned in in the middle of the broadcast.  It was some English guy (or at least, English-sounding guy) addressing a broadcast media conference, and he referred to the study, which I googled in order to get the above link.  (Which doesn't give out a whole lot of information about the contents.)

The broadcast referred in detail to the enormous imbalance in coverage, overwhelmingly favouring the Israeli side.  I thought the study was on North American media, but reading the link, it appears to be U.K. media - - in which case, I would bet the U.S. media is even MORE overbalanced towards the Israeli side.

The speaker referred to adolescents who spent a certain amount of time or more watching TV newscasts, and found that most of them thought "the settlers" were the Palestinians.    He referred to a "famous" comment by somebody whose name I didn't catch, that "The more they watch, the less they know."  (Might be famous, but I'd never heard it before.)  Apparently the media actively disinforms, so that minimal basic understanding of the conflict easily becomes twisted into pro-Israeli POV with increasing reliance on TV broadcast news media.

Richpo64

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Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #116 on: October 01, 2007, 09:04:59 PM »
>>Forget that we're talking about Israel here - it could be any country in the world. Put under this lense, it is entirely likely that civilians are deliberatly being targeted.<<

Yes, by the people you support, NOT by Israel. How ridiculous is it that you have to go to ancient military history to further your lie?

Really ridiculous.

Richpo64

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Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #117 on: October 01, 2007, 09:17:20 PM »
>>Actually, he might be little inflammatory for me, but there are gems nonetheless to be found there.I have found some of what he says to be vlaid.  I am inflammatory as well, but not as systemically.<<

Inflammatory ... hmmm.

Well, considering what people ( I use the term loosely) like JS say about myself and my president and my party on a daily basis, I think to respond with a little flame is what they deserve. Frankly, they deserve more than what I give them. I can guarantee you that people who represent the left in this forum have gone to BT a month ago and asked him to remove me. I guarantee it. You see, they can say anything they like, Anything.  Because without them, there's no forum. These people say the  most vicious lies. They libel and slander anyone who disagrees with them. they are proven liars. Yet I am inflammatory. You read them daily, yet I'm inflammatory.

No, I just tell them to fuck off as they so richly deserve.

You can have 'em Mr. Perspective. I don't need this. I'm not sure why I even came back. To hell with them all, cuz that's where they're going.

But believe me when I tell you, they will slit your throat in a second. Don't ever trust them.

sirs

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Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #118 on: October 01, 2007, 09:28:02 PM »
I'd trust Miss Henny, and not think twice      8)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

yellow_crane

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Re: Dinner with Ahmadinejad
« Reply #119 on: October 01, 2007, 09:33:13 PM »
>>Actually, he might be little inflammatory for me, but there are gems nonetheless to be found there.I have found some of what he says to be vlaid.  I am inflammatory as well, but not as systemically.<<

Inflammatory ... hmmm.

Well, considering what people ( I use the term loosely) like JS say about myself and my president and my party on a daily basis, I think to respond with a little flame is what they deserve. Frankly, they deserve more than what I give them. I can guarantee you that people who represent the left in this forum have gone to BT a month ago and asked him to remove me. I guarantee it. You see, they can say anything they like, Anything.  Because without them, there's no forum. These people say the  most vicious lies. They libel and slander anyone who disagrees with them. they are proven liars. Yet I am inflammatory. You read them daily, yet I'm inflammatory.

No, I just tell them to fuck off as they so richly deserve.

You can have 'em Mr. Perspective. I don't need this. I'm not sure why I even came back. To hell with them all, cuz that's where they're going.

But believe me when I tell you, they will slit your throat in a second. Don't ever trust them.



How old are you?