The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .

[_JS]

Yes Plane.

I follow what you're saying. I get that the moneychangers angered Christ. I don't recall disputing that. This is not an argument between pacifism and taking up arms.

I've yet to see you show where Christ "hates" anything or anyone. And I've yet to see where "hate the sin, love the sinner" is proven as anything but a modern Protestant construct used primarily to defend a position against homosexuals.

Does God show rage? Sure. I even saw a bumper sticker the other day that read "God is pro-life" and I thought about asking the owner if he recalled the story of the Israelites attack on Jericho.

Show me something (apparently I'm a Missourian today) that has Christ "hating." You can make Christ into some sort of warrior messiah (He wasn't...but there is some scattered evidence one could cobble together), but I've yet to see someone convincingly make Him into the antithesis of love.

[Plane]

As far as I know the only thing he is recorded to have killed was a tree...

Well, there was that herd of swine.

He is responsible for suicidal swine stampedeing into the sea?

Wouldn't the swine have had the choice to remain alive ?

[sirs]

Perhaps Js can provide us the scriptures where Jesus advocates that we love the sin

[Plane]

but I've yet to see someone convincingly make Him into the antithesis of love.

Why should anyone want to do that?

[Xavier_Onassis]

He is responsible for suicidal swine stampedeing into the sea?

Wouldn't the swine have had the choice to remain alive ?

================================================
The tale of the Gaderine Swine is as follows.

Jesus & Co. were strolling along when they came upon a madman. He was mad because he was possessed by demons. Jesus drove the demons out of the man into a herd of swine. The swine then became suicidal and ran into the Sea of Galilee and drowned.

There is no belief in the Bible that animals have souls or even the power to decide what they want to do. The Roman Catholic Church echoes this, and does not claim any type of free will for animals.

------------------
The story suggests several rather antique beliefs, to wit:
(1) madness is caused by demonic possession.
(2) demons can be moved, but not destroyed.
(3) demons can cause pigs to become suicidal.
(4) a deity possesses the power to cure madness by driving out demons.
(5) Someone in Galilee was raising pigs, which are considered unclean animals by Jews. Perhaps they were Roman pigs destined to become pork sausages.

I don't think to many people believe that madness is caused by demonic possession these days, even though many of the same people will claim that they believe that every word in the Bible is true. I tend to think that they just don;t think much about the implications of this story, which is presented as an actual occurrence, not a parable.

[_JS]

Perhaps Js can provide us the scriptures where Jesus advocates that we love the sin

No need. Unlike your view of "Hate the sin..." I never made the opposite claim.

[_JS]

but I've yet to see someone convincingly make Him into the antithesis of love.

Why should anyone want to do that?

Someone who believes in "hate the sin, love the sinner" would be thus inclined to show a foundation for this ethical rule. Jesus did not hate, therefore it is not a Christian principle.

[_JS]

He is responsible for suicidal swine stampedeing into the sea?

Wouldn't the swine have had the choice to remain alive ?

================================================
The tale of the Gaderine Swine is as follows.

Jesus & Co. were strolling along when they came upon a madman. He was mad because he was possessed by demons. Jesus drove the demons out of the man into a herd of swine. The swine then became suicidal and ran into the Sea of Galilee and drowned.

There is no belief in the Bible that animals have souls or even the power to decide what they want to do. The Roman Catholic Church echoes this, and does not claim any type of free will for animals.

------------------
The story suggests several rather antique beliefs, to wit:
(1) madness is caused by demonic possession.
(2) demons can be moved, but not destroyed.
(3) demons can cause pigs to become suicidal.
(4) a deity possesses the power to cure madness by driving out demons.
(5) Someone in Galilee was raising pigs, which are considered unclean animals by Jews. Perhaps they were Roman pigs destined to become pork sausages.

I don't think to many people believe that madness is caused by demonic possession these days, even though many of the same people will claim that they believe that every word in the Bible is true. I tend to think that they just don;t think much about the implications of this story, which is presented as an actual occurrence, not a parable.

Interesting point H.

I suppose that it could have been a Greek, non-Jewish farmer as well. Greeks and their culture had become more prevalent in Palestine by the New Testament time. Or, it could be that the swine are symbolic and purposefully used in this story as unclean animals.

[Xavier_Onassis]

There are those who maintain that the Philistines (who were the nucleus of today's modern Palestinians) arrived on boats from Mycenean Greece perhaps 1100 BCE. They are alleged to have come with their swine.

I suppose that today, now that most Palestinians are Muslims and not particularly known as seafaring people, this is a story that has not been passed down as much as other tales.

[Plane]

but I've yet to see someone convincingly make Him into the antithesis of love.

Why should anyone want to do that?

Someone who believes in "hate the sin, love the sinner" would be thus inclined to show a foundation for this ethical rule. Jesus did not hate, therefore it is not a Christian principle.

I wish that when I wrote , you would read.

Especially when you asked for something so specific and I complied so well with your request.

On what scripture do you possibly base the rediculous assertion that Jesus does not hate?

[sirs]

Perhaps Js can provide us the scriptures where Jesus advocates that we love the sin

No need. Unlike your view of "Hate the sin..." I never made the opposite claim.

So your inference now is that Christ was.......ambivalent to sin??, no biggie??  That whole dying on the cross thing was for.......show??   

[_JS]

Perhaps Js can provide us the scriptures where Jesus advocates that we love the sin

No need. Unlike your view of "Hate the sin..." I never made the opposite claim.

So your inference now is that Christ was.......ambivalent to sin??, no biggie??  That whole dying on the cross thing was for.......show??   

Sirs, I hesitate to comment...but consider this: you are suggesting that Christ's death at Golgotha was not an act of love, but actually an act of HATE. Have you considered that? Is that what you really believe?

[Plane]

Perhaps Js can provide us the scriptures where Jesus advocates that we love the sin

No need. Unlike your view of "Hate the sin..." I never made the opposite claim.

So your inference now is that Christ was.......ambivalent to sin??, no biggie??  That whole dying on the cross thing was for.......show??   

Sirs, I hesitate to comment...but consider this: you are suggesting that Christ's death at Golgotha was not an act of love, but actually an act of HATE. Have you considered that? Is that what you really believe?

An act of love for sinners , a chance for the sinner to seaparate himself from sin , the sin which God hates to damnation.

[_JS]

Perhaps Js can provide us the scriptures where Jesus advocates that we love the sin

No need. Unlike your view of "Hate the sin..." I never made the opposite claim.

So your inference now is that Christ was.......ambivalent to sin??, no biggie??  That whole dying on the cross thing was for.......show??   

Sirs, I hesitate to comment...but consider this: you are suggesting that Christ's death at Golgotha was not an act of love, but actually an act of HATE. Have you considered that? Is that what you really believe?

An act of love for sinners , a chance for the sinner to seaparate himself from sin , the sin which God hates to damnation.

Shown where? Where is it said that "Jesus hates..."? And yes Plane, I did read what you wrote.

In the Prodigal Son, for example, where is the hatred? Surely if "hate the sin, love the sinner" were a Christian principle then the father would have acted more as the older son had. Yet - he did not. God may be vengeful. He is certainly justice. Yet, hateful? I have not seen it.

[Plane]

Perhaps Js can provide us the scriptures where Jesus advocates that we love the sin

No need. Unlike your view of "Hate the sin..." I never made the opposite claim.

So your inference now is that Christ was.......ambivalent to sin??, no biggie??  That whole dying on the cross thing was for.......show??   

Sirs, I hesitate to comment...but consider this: you are suggesting that Christ's death at Golgotha was not an act of love, but actually an act of HATE. Have you considered that? Is that what you really believe?

An act of love for sinners , a chance for the sinner to seaparate himself from sin , the sin which God hates to damnation.

Shown where? Where is it said that "Jesus hates..."? And yes Plane, I did read what you wrote.

In the Prodigal Son, for example, where is the hatred? Surely if "hate the sin, love the sinner" were a Christian principle then the father would have acted more as the older son had. Yet - he did not. God may be vengeful. He is certainly justice. Yet, hateful? I have not seen it.

Did the man accept his prodigal son back along with his sons sin?

Or did the son leave the sin behind and return in repentance?

I didn't see the prodigal son being prodigal in his fathers presence , nor hisfather offering to allow him to be.

While he was lost his father mourned him , celebrateing his return.