DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: sirs on December 05, 2014, 05:00:16 AM
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And no, it's neither their skin color nor their physical size nor police brutality.
What keeps getting ignored, in both these cases......that no one is talking about, is compliance. When an officer indicates you need to do something, you do it.....period. If you feel "disrespected" or something bad was done by the officer, you bring it up to their watch commander afterwards. File a formal complaint. What you don't do is to tell the officer to just leave you alone. And you sure as hell don't charge them. You comply, end of story
What's happening, right now, with all this attention folks like Obama & Holder are creating, with the idea that somehow the Police need to do a better job of being....less threatening, I guess, is enabling future situations, where-as, folks will feel that compliance is merely an option.....and your going to have far more of these incidents.
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I feel differently about the Eric Garner incident.
This fellow had been arrested nine times for selling untaxed cigarettes .
A few arrests for other minor charges.
Listen to his words on the tape , he felt personally harassed, and he was attempting to perform a civil disobedience.
He did resist arrest , but he was not attempting to harm these officers.
The law that these officers were enforcing seems unneeded and not worth this price.
But the officers didn't have the choice to not enforce .
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Of course they had a choice.
Garner was not attacking the cops, he was just a poor guy trying to make a living and they murdered him.
The cop that killed him should at least be fired and deprived of his pension, This shit has been going on far too long.
And of course, whatever law caused the cops to act like automaton robothugs needs to be rescinded.
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and again, with the murder crap ::)
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They were both Black. They are both dead. That is certainly something they had in common. And no cop could possibly murder them, since they could only be justifiably homocided. Or exterminated, perhaps.
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They were both Black.
Irrelevent. They could both be white......the officers could be all black. Everyone could be green. It changes nothing
They are both dead.
And had they both complied with the officers' instructions, they'd both be alive.
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They were both Black. They are both dead. That is certainly something they had in common. And no cop could possibly murder them, since they could only be justifiably homocided. Or exterminated, perhaps.
Since we started speaking of this a couple of months ago, this same thing has probably happened to a dozen young white guys , but we are not talking about them.
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Precisely
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Of course they had a choice.
A choice that gets them fired is a real choice , but then they get replaced with more assertive recruits.
I can imagine building a jail cell around the guy right where he stood.
But I am having a hard time thinking of a choice these policemen really had that would be more gentle.
Mr. Garner should have survived , we would never have heard of this if he had survived, and if he had performed an act of civil disobedience in protest of the unfair enforcement of an unfair law I might well be a fan of his.
The legislature of New York has got no excuse to enact laws that should not be enforced , this puts citizens and policemen into impossible choices.
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Mr. Garner should have survived , we would never have heard of this if he had survived, and if he had performed an act of civil disobedience in protest of the unfair enforcement of an unfair law I might well be a fan of his.
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Other than refusing to allow himself to be arrested, what sort of civil disobedience protest should he have made to gain your admiration?
Michael Brown was a petty thief and picked a fight with the cops. Garner was only trying to make a living. He was not begging or stealing or doing anything a millionth as detrimental to society as the guys at Merrill Lynch that peddled bad mortgages at the same time they were trying to profit from the collapse of the market in the same crap they were selling.
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I have to admire Mr. Garner for courage and chutzpa, I really wish he had survived.
His civil disobedience was too impromptu to be planned for effectiveness, the officers were without better choice. If he had not been injured to death he would have simply have been processed through the system soundlessly.
But there must be hundreds of customers for these cigarettes, are all of them as tired of this hassling as Mr. Garner was?
What you have to know is the capacity of the system that makes the arrests.
Gather a number of willing people , at least a few more than the arresting process can deal with.
Announce the event and break this rule on the steps of city hall. All the better if it can be made humorous.
Suppose you brought a single untaxed cigarette to the scene and sold it to someone right in front of the waiting police. Then present yourself meekly for arrest.
As soon as you are arrested , an assembly line of cigarette selling and buying begins , so that as rapidly as possible you get a huge crowd arrested.
If this rule bothers a lot of people it might be possible to swamp the arresting process with people willing to be arrested .
I am not inventing this , it has been done.
Unless the government is willing to fill some mass graves this technique is sure to work on any sufficiently unpopular law.
Actually it can work even when the government is willing to act drastically, Gandhi, did not succeed instantly, his people had to take a bunch of casualties in the process.
I have to admire the courage of Gandhi and his nonviolent campaigners .
I see Mr. Garner as similarly courageous, but this would have worked better with some planning.
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The cop that killed Garner was responsible for his death. If he was malicious, he should be charged and tried.
If he was incompetent, he should also be charged, like a drunk that runs over a pedestrian.
He was hired to maintain order, not kill civilians.
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The cop that killed Garner was responsible for his death. If he was malicious, he should be charged and tried.
The grand jury had all the evidence and concluded it was not malicious.
If he was incompetent, he should also be charged, like a drunk that runs over a pedestrian.
Nothing in the video demonstrates any form of incompetence
He was hired to maintain order, not kill civilians.
No, he was NOT hired to "maintain order", he was hired to enforce the law. And trained to deal with those who are resistance to abiding by the law, in what-ever way is required at that moment in time. Tragic accidents, can and do occur. Try not to confuse a tragic accident with some goal of killing civilians. It's easy to be a monday morning QB. Quite another to deal with the situation, at that very instance. What will most often occur is an immediate connection to the training you've received. That's what takes over.....the training, in how to deal with a situation, that occurs, right then right there. No one has the luxury of a time machine to go forward in time, and try to figure out what they could have done better, then go back and change it, to achieve the better outcome. That's left to the twits who sit on the couch watching football, or in front of the computer, coming up with all sorts of scenarios that could have been applied,...... after the fact
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I am sure that it delights you that cops can kill Black people at will and get away with it.
Since they are the sort of Black people you fear the most, you think it is just loverly.
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The deflection master, strikes again. No accidental death "delights" me, regardless their skin color. "Sort of Black people?? Where do you pull that crap??....ignorant racist idiot
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I am sure that it delights you that cops can kill Black people at will and get away with it.
Since they are the sort of Black people you fear the most, you think it is just loverly.
Do you care not at all for the white ones?
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You are terrified of large Black dudes, and have celebrated their demise on every possible occasion.
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Try telling that to one of my best friends who's per your racist pigeon holing, is a "large black dude"
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10396296_847061208673453_8818811981569153580_n.jpg?oh=2260b047907b61a72af2d8390db1ed55&oe=55102226&__gda__=1427329612_56d1546cf6ca9b06a77865881f11fc15)
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lol.....that about sums it up ;D
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Ooooo! One of sirs Best friends is Black! Am I ever impressed.
Are you sure that he is not an undercover agent from the NAACP or Al Sharpton?
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Ooooo! One of sirs Best friends is Black! Am I ever impressed.
Your impression is irrelevant. Refuting your ignorant, racist, asinine accusation was
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Neener, neener, sirs.
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Consistent as always, xo
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(https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10369703_813522968695139_1005798536956286579_n.jpg?oh=290a71c18193af877de6afd3e1e24a4b&oe=550591AF)
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Amen, brother
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A thoughtful author....
http://howardtayler.com/2014/12/law-enforcement-violence-and-racial-bias/.............................I said “factors.” Racism is the big one, but the word “racism” is a heavily overburdened term. It has baggage. When I use it, I’m not suggesting that cops are consciously racist. I’m saying that there is an unconscious bias in place, and it centers upon skin color. I’ve found racism and other biases in my own work, and they’re hard to root out. So when I say “racism” it’s not an accusation. It’s a diagnosis.
Another factor in play is a bias commonly found among social workers and customer support representatives as well as police officers. Its sufferers tend to suspect the worst in people. It’s like confirmation bias with a dash of PTSD thrown in. In the case of police officers, it increases the likelihood of violent confrontation across the board.
.............I have friends, some of them quite close, who are police officers. I hold them in high regard. They tackle a demanding, dangerous job with an attitude of selflessness that I admire and aspire to. One of those friends once told me that he’d rather take a punch than throw one, and would prefer to take a bullet than take a life. In his work, he daily seeks to defuse situations so that they do not come down to kill-or-be-killed decisions. His approach demands a skill set that looks like a mash-up of dual PhDs in sociology and psychology along with being a champion of speed chess.
If all police officers were like him, we wouldn’t have this problem. Of course, if all people were like him, we wouldn’t need police officers.
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I recall being a witness at a trial. I was asked to sit outside in the hall until I was called.
There was a different trial going on across the hall. It was about a crime that occurred in a neighborhood called "Larchmont Gardens". There were a couple of cops also sitting in the hall, waiting to be called in as witness. They were a couple of pudgy White guys in their 40's or 50's, rattling on and on about "all the stupid N*ggers in Lunchmeat Gardens". This was around 1991, so I imagine these guys are retired by now. But they had really bad attitudes, like they were geniuses, which they not.
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This is the problem of all government.
The best programs are run by human beings who hire even more human beings to help run them.
The worst programs even more so.
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I do not know that the worst programs hire more or fewer people.
Law enforcement is necessary, of course. It was the attitude of these cops, not their positions, that I found defective.The police will always seem like a great place for bullies. Just as the priesthood attracts pederasts. Protestants less so, because they have no altar boys.