DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Michael Tee on September 28, 2007, 02:07:14 PM
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Latin America welcomes Ahmadinejad
By Dan MurphyFri Sep 28, 4:00 AM ET
from today's Christian Science Monitor
http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20070928/wl_csm/odu0927_1
After a visit to New York and the United Nations General Assembly at which Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad came in for tough questions about his country's violations of basic human rights and its nuclear program, he's embarked on a tour of Latin America where it looks assured he'll receive a much warmer reception. Analysts say that the Iranian leader hopes to build ties in the south in order to help the nation's bid for a seat on the UN Security Council.
Associated Press reports he?s looking to extend trade and oil deals with some of the left-leaning governments south of the US as a counterweight to American involvement in the Middle East.
He and (Bolivian) President Evo Morales were expected to sign accords that Bolivian officials say could help them better tap the continent's second-largest natural gas reserves after Venezuela's and drum up urgently needed agricultural investment.
Ahmadinejad then heads to Caracas to meet Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez, who has defended Iran's claims that its nuclear program is for peaceful energy purposes.
Ahmadinejad's trip south underscores his strengthening links to Latin American nations that also include Nicaragua and Ecuador even as the United States tries to isolate him internationally.
"It's a connection that is growing stronger all the time," said Alberto Garrido, a Venezuelan writer and political analyst. "It's Iran's answer to the United States on its own home turf. The United States is in the Middle East, so Iran is in Latin America."
That Iran is looking to strengthen ties among countries that are distrustful of the United States' regional and global intentions is no surprise, given the increasing pressure Ahmadinejad's coming under from the US. The Washington Post reports that he failed to improve his country's standing and image during his visit to New York.
After several days of controversy, heckling and vitriolic headlines in the local tabloid newspapers, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's visit to New York was capped Wednesday by a 76 to 22 U.S. Senate vote calling on the Bush administration to designate the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps as a terrorist organization.
The congressional rebuke a few hours before Ahmadinejad's Iran Air 747 departed reflected what American scholars and Iranians alike depicted as a missed opportunity by the Iranian president to ease mounting tensions between Iran and the West, particularly the United States.
He had an opportunity to present himself to the American people in a way that would make conflict less likely. And I don't think he succeeded," said John H. Coatsworth, the Columbia University dean who moderated a speech in which Ahmadinejad insisted on Iran's right to pursue uranium enrichment for a nuclear energy program, denied the existence of Iranian gays, and defended additional research on whether the Holocaust occurred.
Front Page Magazine, a right-leaning American publication, says that Iran is spending freely in the hopes of buying allies and swaying the two-thirds of UN member states needed to win a seat on the Security Council.
The election for the seat that Iran is seeking - which is reserved for a member of the Asia Group of member states to which Iran belongs - will be held during the 63rd Session of the UN General Assembly in 2008, but Iran is not wasting any time..
Senior Iranian officials have reportedly been working through back channels to promote Iran's candidacy. Although Japan has also put forward itself for the Security Council seat, Iran is far ahead. Most importantly so far, the powerful fifty-seven member Organization of Islamic Conference ? which has super-sized sway over the General Assembly - has already nominated Iran for the seat. Moreover, China can be expected to put its weight behind Iran rather than its long-time nemesis, Japan.
Making sure that it will not meet the same fate as Venezuela's failed bid last year for a Security Council seat, Iran has been spreading its petrodollars around in Latin America, Africa and Asia to win the support of member states in those regions. Iran's largesse has included lucrative investments, trade and arms deals? In Latin America, for example, Iran has forged economic ties with Venezuela, Ecuador, Cuba, Nicaragua and Brazil. In Africa, Iran has agreed to build an oil refinery and petrochemicals plant in Senegal, and has entered into a long-term contract to supply South African refineries.
An article earlier this month in Time Magazine lays out in detail Iran's plans for much stronger ties with Nicaragua, whose current leader, Daniel Ortega, was attacked by the US when it funded an insurgency against the last government he ran in the 1980s, partly through illegal arms sales to Iran.
The Nicaragua-Iran embrace includes four significant events since Ortega took office as the democratically elected leader of his country last January. Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad came to the Nicaraguan capital, Managua, to personally congratulate Ortega days after his Jan. 10 inauguration. Then Ortega borrowed a jet from Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi to visit Iran in June. Two months later, Iran and Venezuela pledged $350 million to build a seaport near Monkey Point on Nicaragua's Caribbean coast. (Tehran has also been cultivating an alliance with oil-rich Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez.) And last Wednesday, the Nicaraguan foreign minister returned from Tehran, where he met with the foreign ministers of Syria, Cuba and Iran. There is now speculation that Nicaragua may support Tehran's bid for a seat in the U.N. Security council.
Closer to home, however, Iran's tense relationship with fellow regional oil power Saudi Arabia, as staunchly Sunni as his regime is Shiite, appeared to heat up, reports Agence France-Presse.
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad warned Saudi King Abdullah that the "enemies of Islam" were trying to divide the Muslim community, his website said on Saturday.
The Ahmadinejad-Abdullah telephone call came amid complaints from Iran, which is majority Shiite, that Iranian pilgrims visiting Islam's holiest sites in the mainly Sunni kingdom were being harassed.
Saudi Arabia is deeply worried about Iran's nuclear program, since it fears it would give its opponent added clout in the race for influence in the region, reports RTT News.
"Following his talks with US and other officials, Saudi Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal on Wednesday expressed his deep concern over what he believed was a "confrontation in the making" between Iran and the West, saying it was the last thing the troubled region needs.
The Saudi Prince's remarks were made in the context of the verbal duels between the United States and other Western nations and Tehran over the latter's refusal to halt its controversial nuclear program.
Arab countries have already expressed concern over Iran's growing clout in the Shiite-led Iraqi government that will embolden their own Shiite communities, causing even more instability in a region."
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Mahmoud is unlikely to buy much Venezuelan oil.
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I don't think he came there to buy oil.
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I don't think he came there to buy oil.
Then he cannot be as good for Venezuela as we are already.
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<<Then [jf Ahmadinejad didn't come to Venezuela to buy oil] he cannot be as good for Venezuela as we are already. >>
You should lift your sights beyond the purely venal and material, plane. There are other things in life besides selling one's wares.
What Ahmadinejad and Hugo share is a common vision and purpose of uplifting the Third World peoples from the tyranny of imperialist oppression and exploitation in general and from Yankee imperialism and/or neo-colonialism in particular. The fulfillment of those goals is much "better for Venezuela" than America's sordid commercial dealings. They are probably looking even now for new markets for their products so that they won't have to be so dependent on the Great Satan.
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They are probably looking even now for new markets for their products so that they won't have to be so dependent on the Great Satan.
Perhaps we should embargo Venezuelan oil and help them out.
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<<Perhaps we should embargo Venezuelan oil and help them out. >>
Yeah, that's a good idea.
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Yeah, that's a good idea.
Why not?
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It IS a great idea. It'd drive up the price of Canadian oil, which after all is the biggest source of imported oil in the U.S.A. anyway. We'd LOVE for you guys to get stupid.
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So Venezuelan oil keeps your prices down?
Seems to me the biggest holdup for alternative energy is price per gallon, so perhaps we just bite the bullet and move forward with that technology. Even if it does get a bit painful in the here and now.
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<<So Venezuelan oil keeps your prices down?>>
Isn't that the standard capitalist mantra, that competition drives down prices and drives up quality?
<<Seems to me the biggest holdup for alternative energy is price per gallon, so perhaps we just bite the bullet and move forward with that technology. Even if it does get a bit painful in the here and now.>>
Sure, that'll happen. It's not like you haven't had almost 40 years to get started. Just invade another country if Iraq turns out to be too tough a nut to crack.
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Just invade another country if Iraq turns out to be too tough a nut to crack.
Like Canada and Mexico?
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The price of oil is determined by the market. Every oil company wants as much as it can get. The cost of production is only significant if the price drops below it, or if the quality of the oil (ie low sulfur) makes it easier to refine into whatever fuel is required.
If Venezuelan oil were to become unavailable, there would be a smaller supply and the price would jump upwards.
At current prices, the Chinese are subsidizing the cost of gasoline and probably other products to their citizens.
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<<[Invade another country like] Canada or Mexico?>>
You'll never have to invade Canada. Just close the border for a week and we'd have to surrender the whole fucking country. And in case you didn't notice, Mexico has been invading you.
Still, because of your suggestion, I just looked up the population of Mexico - - 103 million. Yeah, I'd love to see you invade Mexico. You can't even handle Iraq.
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If it's all about oil we'll just concentrate around the pemex fields. Shouldn't be that hard to secure.
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<<If it's all about oil we'll just concentrate around the pemex fields. Shouldn't be that hard to secure.>>
No, of course not. It'll be a walk in the park. They'll welcome you with flowers as liberators. Go for it, Big Guy. Make your momma proud!
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Mama's dead.
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I was speaking figuratively of course. My references were to the U.S.A. I obviously have no personal knowledge of your stature that would justify the "Big Fella" apostrophe and no expectation whatsoever that you personally would invade Mexico and seize the PeMex fields. My reference to "your Momma" and making her proud was similarly figurative only.
Sorry if this offended or hurt you. No offence was intended.
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<<[Invade another country like] Canada or Mexico?>>
You'll never have to invade Canada. Just close the border for a week and we'd have to surrender the whole fucking country. And in case you didn't notice, Mexico has been invading you.
Still, because of your suggestion, I just looked up the population of Mexico - - 103 million. Yeah, I'd love to see you invade Mexico. You can't even handle Iraq.
You are right regarding the fact that we are being invaded.
44.3 million
The estimated Hispanic population of the United States as of July 1, 2006, making people of Hispanic origin the nation's largest ethnic or race minority. Hispanics constituted 15% of the nation's total population.http://www.infoplease.com/spot/hhmcensus1.html (http://www.infoplease.com/spot/hhmcensus1.html)but many of the increased population is due to birth instead of immigration...by that factor it certainly dissipates the implied numbers.[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/08/AR2005060802381.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/08/AR2005060802381.html) and since you are being so glib regarding our inability to win if we invade Mexico... hell, we can just run them over since most are on bicycles around here./color]
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Even better. By the time you paid for the gas to run over 103 million Mexicans, you'd be bankrupt and we'd be rich.
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They are probably looking even now for new markets for their products so that they won't have to be so dependent on the Great Satan.
Perhaps we should embargo Venezuelan oil and help them out.
I already do. I do not purchase at Citgo. Do you?
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It IS a great idea. It'd drive up the price of Canadian oil, which after all is the biggest source of imported oil in the U.S.A. anyway. We'd LOVE for you guys to get stupid.
So what? I'd much rather beef up Canada than Venezuela anyway.
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<<[Invade another country like] Canada or Mexico?>>
You'll never have to invade Canada. Just close the border for a week and we'd have to surrender the whole fucking country. And in case you didn't notice, Mexico has been invading you.
Still, because of your suggestion, I just looked up the population of Mexico - - 103 million. Yeah, I'd love to see you invade Mexico. You can't even handle Iraq.
"And in case you didn't notice, Mexico has been invading you."
So then, you really OWE us since we are keeping THEM off your doorstop. In payment, I would like a RCMP Senior NCO uniform every year on every July 1.
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<<So then, you really OWE us since we are keeping THEM [Mexicans] off your doorstop. >>
You're WHAT?
http://www.thestar.com/article/258368
<<In payment, I would like a RCMP Senior NCO unifirm every year on every July 1.>>
No RCMP uniform for YOU. (see link above)
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<<So what? I'd much rather beef up Canada than Venezuela anyway.>>
Great. Why don't you and BT put your heads together and make it happen? BOYCOTT EVIL VENEZUELA! BOYCOTT EVIL VENEZUELA!
Oh, wait a minute. I get it. You already OWN our "Canadian" oil companies, doncha?
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<<So then, you really OWE us since we are keeping THEM [Mexicans] off your doorstop. >>
You're WHAT?
http://www.thestar.com/article/258368
<<In payment, I would like a RCMP Senior NCO unifirm every year on every July 1.>>
No RCMP uniform for YOU. (see link above)
Whining, huh? Canada has seen nothing like the "damage" done by this invasion. There are hospitals in places like Southern California that are out of business due to immigrant indigent care.
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Even better. By the time you paid for the gas to run over 103 million Mexicans, you'd be bankrupt and we'd be rich.
HA HA.... we will just go to war and get more... also don't forget we are dumping corn because we have so much ethanol the distributors can't keep up... and you may be rich but you will be still freezing your ass off in that overtaxed pile of cold rock.
lol
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Whining, huh? Canada has seen nothing like hte "damage" done by this nvasion. There are hospitals in places like Southern California that are out of business due to immigrant indigent care.
[/quote]
and don't you love it when they all stay home from work just so show us that they can stop the economy. Personally I think that would be the perfect time for the INS to do house calls to check green cards.
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<<HA HA.... we will just go to war and get more... >>
Yeah with what troops? Your whole army is tied up fighting a bunch of rebels in Iraq and getting its ass kicked bloody into the bargain.
<<also don't forget we are dumping corn because we have so much ethanol the distributors can't keep up... >>
then you don't need any oil from us OR from Iraq and 4000 Americans just died for nothing. My condolences.
<<and you may be rich but you will be still freezing your ass off in that overtaxed pile of cold rock.>>
You might be interested to know that the temperature here today in this pile of cold rock called Toronto (which happens to have about 70 live-theatre venues, over 60 of them English-language, the third largest live-theatre city in the English-speaking world) was 20 degrees Celsius or 68 Fahrenheit, and last week 30 Celsius (86 Fahrenheit.) Thanks to the actions of your moronic "President" on global warming, or perhaps I should have said his inaction, Toronto is set to become the new Miami, and Miami is set to become the new Palancar Reef.
lol indeed
lol
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<<Whining, huh? Canada has seen nothing like the "damage" done by this invasion. There are hospitals in places like Southern California that are out of business due to immigrant indigent care.>>
That's because your greedy, selfish, overcompensated doctors won't show up for work to treat the sick and the injured unless they can see hundreds of thousands of dollars in return in it for them at the end of each fiscal year and your greedy pharmaceutical companies insist on being remunerated at obscene rates for their "research and development" efforts, often dedicated only to by-passing some competitor's patent with an effective or not-so-effective copycat drug or rushing new stuff to market for quick profits before everyone learns of its toxic and lethal effects. Why don't you fire all the greedy jerk-offs and replace them with Cuban doctors from good medical schools in Cuba who are more interested in healing than they are in acquiring third homes in Tuscany? And get the government into the generic drug manufacturing business.
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<<Whining, huh? Canada has seen nothing like the "damage" done by this invasion. There are hospitals in places like Southern California that are out of business due to immigrant indigent care.>>
That's because your greedy, selfish, overcompensated doctors won't show up for work to treat the sick and the injured unless they can see hundreds of thousands of dollars in return in it for them at the end of each fiscal year and your greedy pharmaceutical companies insist on being remunerated at obscene rates for their "research and development" efforts, often dedicated only to by-passing some competitor's patent with an effective or not-so-effective copycat drug or rushing new stuff to market for quick profits before everyone learns of its toxic and lethal effects.
Spoken like a true ignorant socialist. Actually, it's becasue the regulations imposed, price controls imposed, and mandatory policies imposed upon those Doctors that receive medicare & medicaid, barely pay for their offices to remain open, and to pay off student loans, many of them in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. ER's are so understaffed at times, because there overwhelmed with people just coming in for colds and sprains, which diverts much needed resources from those who need emergent care. And without the millions of dollars that Pharmaceutical compaines spend in their R&D, there'd be only a fraction of the drugs currently out on the market to take care of severe chronic pain, late stage cancer, and just about any other debilitating, if not crippling disease. For Tee, they should do this all for free, and be content about it. Damn the costs required to perform such. So now Doctors are the bad guys, because they dare want to actually make a good living while saving lives. You can be such an idiot at times, Tee
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Wow, sirs, I hope no one is smoking near your computer terminal, because you just set up so many straw men that a single spark could set off a major conflagration.
Mr. Perceptive just assured me it was a bunch of dead-beat Mexicans who caused the breakdown but according to you, it's paperwork, regulations, student loans, R&D (LMFAO again, R&D for sure, but how much of that R&D is for commercial rivals trying to find loopholes in each others' patents?) misuse of ERs by hypochondriacs and malingerers, etc. Don't buy it, sirs - - the malingerers and hypochondriacs can be triaged and put on hold, the paperwork is largely automated, computerized and performed by intake personnel with community-college qualification or less, the R&D costs are largely bullshit and (except for legitimate ground-breaking research) ought to be discouraged, not rewarded with tax breaks.
The cost of the Iraq war to date [http://www.nationalpriorities.org/Cost-of-War/Cost-of-War-3.html] is $456 Billion. Let's see, doctors need to overcharge patients because they owe hundreds of thousands of bucks in student loans? Gee, suppose you give 1,000 doctors in each state $300K to pay off the student loans. I did the math, it's only $15 billion. Less than 3.3 per cent of the war's cost to date. Really just a priorities question isn't it? "Freedom" (LMFAO) for Iraqis or health for American kids. Shows ya where your "President's" family values are, eh? Especially if it's not really freedom but oil.
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<<HA HA.... we will just go to war and get more... >>
Yeah with what troops? Your whole army is tied up fighting a bunch of rebels in Iraq and getting its ass kicked bloody into the bargain.
<<also don't forget we are dumping corn because we have so much ethanol the distributors can't keep up... >>
then you don't need any oil from us OR from Iraq and 4000 Americans just died for nothing. My condolences.
<<and you may be rich but you will be still freezing your ass off in that overtaxed pile of cold rock.>>
You might be interested to know that the temperature here today in this pile of cold rock called Toronto (which happens to have about 70 live-theatre venues, over 60 of them English-language, the third largest live-theatre city in the English-speaking world) was 20 degrees Celsius or 68 Fahrenheit, and last week 30 Celsius (86 Fahrenheit.) Thanks to the actions of your moronic "President" on global warming, or perhaps I should have said his inaction, Toronto is set to become the new Miami, and Miami is set to become the new Palancar Reef.
lol indeed
lol
lol... yep I understand about your 'culture' in Canada but let's not pretend that we all don't understand that the lion's share of CANADA is nothing but cold crumby frozen tundra... and I certainly understand about Toronto been there done that often ( you forget that I am originally from Detroit... but becoming the new Miami... lol... I can just picture it now... a bunch of tight ass canucks cruising up and down the ???? in their cigarette boats....not. Regarding the going to war for oil... it was just a liberal hook thrown with tongue in cheek.
Canadian Figures for military
Military Manpower
Availability
(males age 16-49) 8,216,510 (2005 est.)[1]
Availability
(females age 16-49) 8,034,939 (2005 est.)[1]
Fit for military service
(males age 16-49) 6,740,490 (2005 est.)[1]
Fit for military service
(females age 16-49) 6,580,868 (2005 est.)[1]
Regular Force (2005) approx. 64,000[2]
Primary Reserve (including Rangers) (2005) approx. 27,500[2]
Military expenditures
Dollar figure
(FY07/08) CAN$16.9 billion[3]
Percent of GDP
(FY03/04) 1.1% (128th in 2003)
Military strength
Canadian_Maritime_Command.PNG
Maritime Command
Fleet Submarines 4
Destroyers 3
Frigates 12
Coastal Defence Vessels 12
Operational Support Ships 2
Canadian_Land_Forces_Command_Badge.PNG
Land Force Command
Main Battle Tanks 66 Leopard C2[4] , 100 Leopard II
Infantry fighting vehicles 600+
Armoured Personnel Carriers 1,000+
RCAF-Roundel.svg
Looks to me like even on a bad day we will still have more boots (available) than Canada.
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Mr. Perceptive just assured me it was a bunch of dead-beat Mexicans who caused the breakdown but according to you, it's paperwork, regulations, student loans, R&D misuse of ERs by hypochondriacs and malingerers, etc.
Apparently you haven't heard...... it's BOTH. And of course you're not going to because it doesn't fit the socialist playbook of how Government run everything is all good and Private run everything is all bad
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<<Looks to me like even on a bad day we will still have more boots (available) than Canada.>>
You're the ones who are dumb enough to fight for a pile of frozen rocks and tundra. We're not. Don't forget when you get it, it's yours. You're the ones who have to guard it against the Russians and the Chinese, you're the ones who have to pump out the oil from the tar sands. And all the time you're freezing your asses off doing it, we're going to be down in Florida laughing at you and buying up all the best condos with our dollar-for-dollar currency. Or better yet in Havana drinking rum and Coke and taking in the show at the Tropicana. Glad that you guys don't have a clue and hoping like hell you never get one.'
Forgot you were from Detroit. I spent some of my best teenage years sucking back milkshakes on Dexter Boulevard at the Eagle Dairy and listening to rhythm 'n blues groups like Otis Williams and the Charms that nobody in Toronto had ever heard of. And never going home without boxes of Saunders Chocolates to sneak past the customs officers. Used to love that city. Loved Metropolitan Beach too and Bob-Lo Island. After the riots the whole thing turned to shit.
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<<Looks to me like even on a bad day we will still have more boots (available) than Canada.>>
You're the ones who are dumb enough to fight for a pile of frozen rocks and tundra. We're not. Don't forget when you get it, it's yours. You're the ones who have to guard it against the Russians and the Chinese, you're the ones who have to pump out the oil from the tar sands. And all the time you're freezing your asses off doing it, we're going to be down in Florida laughing at you and buying up all the best condos with our dollar-for-dollar currency. Or better yet in Havana drinking rum and Coke and taking in the show at the Tropicana. Glad that you guys don't have a clue and hoping like hell you never get one.'
Forgot you were from Detroit. I spent some of my best teenage years sucking back milkshakes on Dexter Boulevard at the Eagle Dairy and listening to rhythm 'n blues groups like Otis Williams and the Charms that nobody in Toronto had ever heard of. And never going home without boxes of Saunders Chocolates to sneak past the customs officers. Used to love that city. Loved Metropolitan Beach too and Bob-Lo Island. After the riots the whole thing turned to shit.
I said used to be..... (yes it turned to shit- thank you Coleman Young. We did get a good black mayor, Archer but the ghetto rats drove him off...now we have Kwnammi or something like that.)
but now I am in Florida and a much better place than Miami. Love it here