Author Topic: Looks like the public likes the Democratic Agenda  (Read 6670 times)

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Amianthus

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Re: Looks like the public likes the Democratic Agenda
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2007, 01:15:22 PM »
The Democrats are talking about a raise to $7.15 per hour in three phases.

Just looked it up.

Actually, it's a raise to $7.25/hour in two phases. Since it's currently at $5.15/hour, that is a raise of $2.10/hour or 40.78%. Both phases would be completed by next year.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

BT

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Re: Looks like the public likes the Democratic Agenda
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2007, 01:16:55 PM »
wonder why they want to phase it in.

Soften the effects on the economy?


Amianthus

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Re: Looks like the public likes the Democratic Agenda
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2007, 01:18:13 PM »
Soften the effects on the economy?

Nah, can't be that.

XO just assured us that it won't affect the economy.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

BT

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Re: Looks like the public likes the Democratic Agenda
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2007, 01:19:29 PM »
Most be lack of political courage then.


Plane

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Re: Looks like the public likes the Democratic Agenda
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2007, 03:05:30 PM »
   Some people produce a lot of value with their jobs , the more their work produces money the more an employer wants to hire them .

   I suppose that there are a lot of people on the margin , people who do not produce a lot of value but who do make enough to justify their job if their pay is low enough.

     The Minimum wage will move this margin , makeing anyone who produyces less than the new minimum unemployable.

_JS

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Re: Looks like the public likes the Democratic Agenda
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2007, 04:19:23 PM »
Quote
Actually, it doesn't say that he has to fire someone because he had to give them a raise. What it says is that he has to fire someone because "business expenses" have gone up. This could be because of a direct expense (like a rise in minimum wages) but is more likely to be because of indirect expenses (minimum wage raises at his suppliers have increased the costs of his purchased materials and supplies).

A minimum wage increase impacts more than just the wages of employees and their direct employers - it impacts everyone who purchases products made by those employees or utilizes services provided by those employees.

Of course he checked his overhead, supply costs, and insurance - so it is safe to assume that he already knew of those costs. In fact, being the "good" businessman he is, he should have already known about any potential increase in the minimum wage. So it was relatively safe for XO and others to assume that the reaction was strictly confined to minimum wage raises within his company or wage pressure at slightly above minimum wage levels.

Moreover, there are few minimum wage employees in the United States relative to the minimum wage level (though it has increased with the lack of an inflation level minimum wage hike over the Bush years). So the effects aren't likely to be quite as dramatic as you claim. Also, a dramatic increase in the costs from the "good" businessman's supplier is likely to be met with a better offer from another vendor. Therefore yours and Sir's assumption is even less likely to be true.

Quote
"Obviously" someone who has no frellin clue as to what it takes to effectively run a business, and work with other companies that also run businesses

Actually, I find that many of the right wing who make this remark quite often have "no frellin clue" themselves. It seems to be a standard freeper reply though.

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_JS

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Re: Looks like the public likes the Democratic Agenda
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2007, 04:22:46 PM »
Quote
Bush wasn't running in the midterms.
The GOP lost because their credibity took a hit.

Bush's lack of credibility with the voters made issues like Iraq a top voter issue, especially amongst swing demographics.

The GOP lost because they lost the ability to frame the issues. They became the fringe party whereas the Democrats looked like the competent centrists. Don't believe me? Check out the final desperation campaign by the GOP - which was to frame Pelosi, et al as fringe nutters.

This is modern politics between two parties that no longer have a great deal of difference between them, especially on economics. It is a race to the center like moths to the flame.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

BT

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Re: Looks like the public likes the Democratic Agenda
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2007, 04:25:23 PM »
the tipping point was the corruption charges and the foley episode. I think iraq played out to a draw because the dems didn't offer their own plans, and cut and run didn't resonate.


sirs

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Re: Looks like the public likes the Democratic Agenda
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2007, 04:28:06 PM »
Quote
"Obviously" someone who has no frellin clue as to what it takes to effectively run a business, and work with other companies that also run businesses

Actually, I find that many of the right wing who make this remark quite often have "no frellin clue" themselves. It seems to be a standard freeper reply though.

Knee jerk response I'd opine in pulling out "freepers".  Dare I say that even though I'm no economist, I have a better grasp of the economic impact raising the minimum wage has, than someone who opines that it won't effect it all.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2007, 04:36:38 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: Looks like the public likes the Democratic Agenda
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2007, 04:33:03 PM »
Quote
Dare I say that even though I'm know economist I have a better grasp of the economic impact impact raising the minimum wage has than someone who opines that it won't effect it all all

Why? And why does that make you an expert on running a small business succesfully? There are many economists who wrote excellent papers on how Clinton's raising of the minimum wage and subsequent states' raising of the minmum wage has not aversely affected their economies.  How would you argue with them?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Amianthus

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Re: Looks like the public likes the Democratic Agenda
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2007, 04:35:19 PM »
Moreover, there are few minimum wage employees in the United States relative to the minimum wage level (though it has increased with the lack of an inflation level minimum wage hike over the Bush years).

Actually, the numbers at minimum wage level have decreased during the Bush years. According the the BLS, in 1997 there were 4.8 million minimum wage workers. In 2004, there were 2 million minimum wage workers.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

_JS

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Re: Looks like the public likes the Democratic Agenda
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2007, 04:39:43 PM »
Quote
the tipping point was the corruption charges and the foley episode. I think iraq played out to a draw because the dems didn't offer their own plans, and cut and run didn't resonate.

That only furthers my point. I see it as more a game of image than policy. The Republicans offered no real policies. For example, Bush campaigned for Lincoln Chafee, someone who basically opposed many of his own views even over the Iraq War and Abortion. Whereas he also campaigned for Bob Corker who supported the war and opposed Bush on amnesty plans for illegal residents. There's no cohesion of policy, it is just a bungled mix of whatever works at the time.

Therefore image trumps policy.

The Democrats were no different. Look at the differences between Harold Ford Jr. and Nancy Pelosi. Policy is trumped by image. The Democrats won the fight for the center. They won the framing of the issues.

Cohesion of policy (even a basic tenet of policy) is a joke. Image is what matters. That's why Presidential candidates spend millions on public relations firms and hire image consultants. Yeah, there are a few Congressmen in safe districts that have wildly different views, but the parties themselves move towards consensus on basic issues.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

_JS

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Re: Looks like the public likes the Democratic Agenda
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2007, 04:43:31 PM »
Quote
Actually, the numbers at minimum wage level have decreased during the Bush years. According the the BLS, in 1997 there were 4.8 million minimum wage workers. In 2004, there were 2 million minimum wage workers.

Thanks for the correction. And recall that some states increased their minimum wage during this time too.

Regardless, as a small percentage of the work force we're really not talking about the massive impact many of the right are using as a scare tactic. I think you'll find that the massive impact on suppliers, etc will not come to fruition.

A similar scare tactic was used when Blair introduced the minimum wage to Britain and it too has not hampered business. In fact, many business owners even admitted that they were wrong about it.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Amianthus

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Re: Looks like the public likes the Democratic Agenda
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2007, 05:01:36 PM »
Regardless, as a small percentage of the work force we're really not talking about the massive impact many of the right are using as a scare tactic. I think you'll find that the massive impact on suppliers, etc will not come to fruition.

Also, on the flip side, since the numbers of workers at minimum wage has dropped (and continues to do so), is there really a need to increase the minimum wage, other than for show?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

_JS

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Re: Looks like the public likes the Democratic Agenda
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2007, 05:07:44 PM »
Quote
Also, on the flip side, since the numbers of workers at minimum wage has dropped (and continues to do so), is there really a need to increase the minimum wage, other than for show?

I think that is the real question. There are arguably far greater measures that could be taken to help the working classes than to raise minimum wage. Raising EITC values would probably be more beneficial to those who really need it, as one example. Strengthening labor unions would certainly help more people as opposed to a minimum wage hike.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.