Author Topic: When?  (Read 34413 times)

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fatman

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Re: When?
« Reply #105 on: April 02, 2008, 09:25:34 AM »
Oh come on Fatman.

Dont we both know the sign refers to for all practical matters "ending slavery" in the United States and ending Nazism in Germany?

Of course slavery still exists in the world today, but it is generally accepted that the US Civil War freed the slaves from slavery.

The point is that war has solved major problems, forced political solutions, or at the least forced people to change their behaviors for the better.


UP's point aside, even if it were to be believed that the Civil War ended slavery in this country, it didn't end it in others.  Britain and the Dutch colonies, both heavily into the slave trade, ended slavery without war.

As far as knowing that the sign says that war ended slavery in the US, how do I know that?  How do I know that the sign wasn't made by a Canadian, or a Lithuanian?  It lists four things which war supposedly ended, which it didn't end in all cases.  Nowhere does that sign make it clear.

For every example of war solving major problems, forcing political solutions, or forcing people to change their actions for the better, another example could be brought to light where it did the opposite of those things.  Is war always wrong?  No.  Is war always the best course?  No.  The truth lies somewhere in the grey area.

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: When?
« Reply #106 on: April 02, 2008, 11:48:00 AM »
it didn't end it in others.  Britain and the Dutch colonies, both heavily into
the slave trade, ended slavery without war.


Yes but does one always have to encompass 100% of everything possible with
every statement? Gosh Fatman that makes a discussion unneccessarily difficult.

If I say in a conversation "I love Ford Mustangs", but you interrupt and say "yeah but you
don't love every single Ford Mustang that has ever been made", it makes it very difficult
to converse if nothing can be taken for granted in a discussion.

If we end polio with a vaccine and a headline reads "Polio cured"
Obviously most people realize that the headline means "almost all".
And of course there will be isolated cases still around and not every single case is cured.

Or when a headline reads "US Civil War Over".
Most readers that are not "define is" freaks (not saying you are) realize that it
means "for all practical purposes" the civil war is ended even if there are still
a few pockets of resistance.

The point I was making by showing the sign that said "War ended slavery"
was that war does solve things, not every time, but at times it does solve things.
It did free the slaves in the United States.

As far as knowing that the sign says that war ended slavery in the US,
how do I know that?  How do I know that the sign wasn't made by a Canadian,
or a Lithuanian? It lists four things which war supposedly ended, which it didn't
end in all cases. Nowhere does that sign make it clear.


Honestly Fatman, and I say this 100% respectfully, this is more of the "define is" crap
that is such a waste of time. If we are going to have a decent flowing discussion can't we be
civil enough to not block the exchange of ideas with constant little "gotcha games" or distractions
away from the real point at hand? You and I both know the point I was making and the point
the sign was making. Deep down, we both really honestly know. But instead "define is" gets
thrown up and brings the discussion into a different direction, and really is such a waste of time.

Of course a protest sign is not going to be able to list every single country where war has
ended slavery. War ended slavery in the United States. The little protest sign lists things
which war ended but not ended in every single case. It's kind of like a "DUH". But it is a fact
that in each category listed war has ended those thing in various instances around the world.

For every example of war solving major problems, forcing political solutions, or forcing
people to change their actions for the better, another example could be brought to light
where it did the opposite of those things.
 

Of course, my statement nor the sign said "War Solves Everything".
My statment is in response to a comment that "War Is Dumb".
War ended slavery in the United States which isn't dumb.

Is war always wrong?  No.  Is war always the best course?  No.  T
he truth lies somewhere in the grey area.


Exactly Fatman, we agree again.

« Last Edit: April 02, 2008, 11:53:17 AM by ChristiansUnited4LessGvt »
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Universe Prince

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Re: When?
« Reply #107 on: April 02, 2008, 12:24:30 PM »

War ended slavery in the United States.


Except that it didn't.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

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Re: When?
« Reply #108 on: April 02, 2008, 12:25:48 PM »

I just thought maybe we could hear the other person's point with sincere and respectful ears.


So who's stopping you?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: When?
« Reply #109 on: April 02, 2008, 12:57:06 PM »
I have noticed that very few people have ever really heard
another person's point of view and agreed with that point.


Gosh Cynthia look at the post right before the post you made the above statement.
It stated I agreed with Fatman and Fatman and I have been at each others
throats many times.

But, I was wrong. This is not a classroom.  This is a debate gate.

I disagree.
I think 3DHS is a wondeful "classroom".
At least I know it is for me.
Cynthia I learn alot in here, because of disagreement.

Every single day I must learn about varying subjects so that
you can respond and post coherently.

If we all agreed all the time, why would you need to go look stuff
up so that you can source your opinion?

Jeezzz honestly I have to research topics every single day.
It is really enlightening.

I hear what you are saying Cynthia, but I really don't get the constant need for
people to always agree. You hear about that in the election campaign. Ya know the
"we all need to put aside our differences and get along". What? Isn't that was democracy
is about? I don't view differing opinions as a bad thing. Thats the way hopefully we can
come up with the best solutions in a democracy. There are no disagreements in many non-
democratic systems, it's "one way or a bullet in your head". So I view disagreement as
a positive, it means there is freedom of expression, and free exchange of very differing views.

I think BT remains in the background alot.
He believes in not being a nanny and getting involved in every little spat.
Sure he manipulates and tries to massage us towards a more civil discourse.
But I think it would be unwise to crack down too much on freedom of expression
as long as it isn't too personal or threatening to fellow members.

Cynthia even though we might not admit it, even though like you said it's sometimes
about ego, it can still be a learning experience. I know sometimes when
people won't admit the obvious it is basically pride/ego holding them back
but even if they can't publicly admit something, I know deep down they
have learned a lesson.



« Last Edit: April 02, 2008, 01:13:12 PM by ChristiansUnited4LessGvt »
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Universe Prince

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Re: When?
« Reply #110 on: April 02, 2008, 01:07:30 PM »

sometimes I get the feeling that members (and I have done this too) react instead of accept the other person's point of view as "right"...with a counter point.
Instead the rush to "take down" the other member takes center stage.

No big deal...I just had a thought about the difference between real life deabating and how we could improve the room here. When I discuss the NCLB act, for example, or IRAQ ....with a real life individual, the  discussion holds more water, if you will.


We're all real life individuals here. We're people who think we are right and believe it strongly enough to be bothered to participate here. The experience of discussion here at the Saloon is necessarily going to be somewhat different than an average conversation held with another person face to face. It's good that you seek more understanding. We all should. But don't let it discourage you. We're all just human beings after all.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Cynthia

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Re: When?
« Reply #111 on: April 02, 2008, 01:21:37 PM »

sometimes I get the feeling that members (and I have done this too) react instead of accept the other person's point of view as "right"...with a counter point.
Instead the rush to "take down" the other member takes center stage.

No big deal...I just had a thought about the difference between real life deabating and how we could improve the room here. When I discuss the NCLB act, for example, or IRAQ ....with a real life individual, the  discussion holds more water, if you will.


We're all real life individuals here. We're people who think we are right and believe it strongly enough to be bothered to participate here. The experience of discussion here at the Saloon is necessarily going to be somewhat different than an average conversation held with another person face to face. It's good that you seek more understanding. We all should. But don't let it discourage you. We're all just human beings after all.

Thanks, UP. I realize that. I do.

I find indepth discussions with give and take to be so much more valuable and worthwhile. Constructive thoughts, responsed, ideas for change without the need to put down the other fella is what I enjoy. I get that to an extent in here, but not always. So, I will continue to provide my thoughts, my feelings and facts as I see them, just like everyone else. This saloon is ahome for many of us in a way. Otherwise, you're right we wouldn't bother.

HEy, where is Plane??
Straypooch?
Professor?
Calling all dogs! :)

D'oh
I love this place....I really do.

Thanks, Up.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: When?
« Reply #112 on: April 02, 2008, 03:27:11 PM »
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So your solution is to bring the troops home.

Become an isolationist nation once again.

To strike back only when stricken.

That an attack on our friends is simply an attack on our friends. Their problem, not ours.

====================================================================\
This has worked REALLY WELL for Switzerland and Sweden since the 1600's, and for dozens more countries since the end of WWII.

The US has no reason to defend Israel, nor did it have any good reason to throw the Russians out of Afghanistan. There is a war in Iraq because Juniorbush started a war in Iraq.

None of us average Americans will get one damned thing out of it, other than dead or maimed relatives.

Guys like Dick Cheney will get millions, but when he dies, he's not leaving it to us, either.







"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: When?
« Reply #113 on: April 02, 2008, 04:16:17 PM »
Guys like Dick Cheney will get millions, but when he dies, he's not leaving it to us, either.

Nor should he.  Do I have some rightful claim to your money, after you die?? 

sheesh
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: When?
« Reply #114 on: April 02, 2008, 05:07:14 PM »
"even if it were to be believed that the Civil War ended slavery in this country"

PBS: "The Civil War ended slavery....."
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/historyofus/web06/index.html


"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Universe Prince

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Re: When?
« Reply #115 on: April 02, 2008, 05:37:04 PM »
Then PBS is wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

_JS

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Re: When?
« Reply #116 on: April 02, 2008, 07:37:45 PM »
Getting back to the point of the Iraq War, the problem is one of understanding history.

Trying to catch President Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, or Dick Cheney in a quote that shows them guilty of war mongering is only ever going to be met with retaliatory comments of how Saddam was really a threat "at the time" or how other politicians in the US or other nations viewed the Iraq situation.

The issue is not one of simple "gotcha" politics.

The issue is that this administration, and if we're honest the past two administrations as well (though not nearly to this degree), have completely misunderstood the place of the United States in the post-Cold War world. The folly of this administration was to believe that "everything changed after 9/11." Whether they believed that in earnest, or used it as a tag line to drive changes dishonestly is up for debate. Yet, from a conceptual level the notion itself is completely false.

The two primary false historical conceptions are these:

1. The United States is now the sole Superpower and we are more powerful now than any nation has ever been in history.
2. Septmeber 11, 2001 changed everything. Every issue must be viewed through a post 9/11 prism.

The problem with these conceptions are this:

1. When the Soviet Union and the entire Eastern Bloc fell, the United States lost its counter-balancing influence. In other words, the days of us going into another country and saying "choose sides" are over. Diplomacy lost its dichotomy. It lost its us or them attitude. The nations of Europe, Africa, Southwest & Southeast Asia, Latin America, etc no longer have to do as we say or face a complete withdrawal of US military support and aid. Our economy is so internationally intertwined that we cannot even use our strongest weapon to simply bend nations to our will (OK, so that may work on Benin, but not France, China, or Brazil).

Now we have to work with and alongside nations, build relationships, manage alliances, and make the case for our causes. We no longer have the power we once had as the other side of the Cold War coin.

2. The reality is that September 11, 2001 changed next to nothing. Yes, air travel is considerably different. Otherwise, we experienced something that many other nations have known for decades (some for even longer). It was only different because it happened to us. The truth is that international politics, international business, military tactics, and international economics had not changed significantly at all. There was (and is) no September 11th prism. International terrorism had existed before and still exists after the travesties of that day. The British, Germans, Greeks, Italians, Austrians, French, Israelis, Egyptians, Syrians, Saudis, Russians, on and on...had all experienced it.

Read all the books you like on how Islam is taking over the world, how "Islamofascism" is a real threat, how terrorists are coming for you and your family, how "democracy must be protected"...and the bottom line at the end of the day is that on a very fundamental level 9/11 changed nothing. Counterinsurgency tactics are fought using the manual General Petraeus authored in 2006: here. As you can see, not a lot has even changed in this field (and interestingly much of this document is being blatantly disregarded at the moment). International terrorism exists, yes, but the death rate is fairly consistent and even including 2001, it has never been very high.

Despite quotes from the radical fringe, Islam is not the dangerous and bloody religion that it was made out to be by some. Much of the "academics" involved in "Islamofascism" come from a time when France was fighting in Algeria and racial attitudes from the French in Algeria (and in this country as well) were deplorable. Democracy as an entity is under no realistic threat except from the usual weight of corporate, personal, and PAC greed in most democratic nations.

In light of these two misread historical conceptions, it is little wonder that not only are we in the quagmires we are in (both economic and military), but that Americans enthusiastically cheered us right into these situations. We don't have the stomach, leadership, or desire to be a full on explicit Empire with the economic and military ramifications that would bring. Nor are we, apparently, willing to fit back into a role that is of great, but lesser, importance than we had as the big dog of the Cold War world. As long as we stay in the limbo between those two we are going to be stuck in this situation of both economic and military pig shit (for lack of a better term).
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
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   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
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BT

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Re: When?
« Reply #117 on: April 02, 2008, 07:54:06 PM »
Quote
1. When the Soviet Union and the entire Eastern Bloc fell, the United States lost its counter-balancing influence. In other words, the days of us going into another country and saying "choose sides" are over. Diplomacy lost its dichotomy. It lost its us or them attitude. The nations of Europe, Africa, Southwest & Southeast Asia, Latin America, etc no longer have to do as we say or face a complete withdrawal of US military support and aid. Our economy is so internationally intertwined that we cannot even use our strongest weapon to simply bend nations to our will (OK, so that may work on Benin, but not France, China, or Brazil).

With this I agree.

fatman

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Re: When?
« Reply #118 on: April 03, 2008, 09:44:23 AM »
Yes but does one always have to encompass 100% of everything possible with
every statement? Gosh Fatman that makes a discussion unneccessarily difficult.


I'm not ignoring you christian, with work and trying to get the garden in this week has been pretty busy.  I'll get to this thread this weekend.

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: When?
« Reply #119 on: April 03, 2008, 10:11:15 AM »
Fatman, thanks, I know you're not.
Good luck with the begonias, caladiums, ect.

"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987