Author Topic: This is not a dictatorship  (Read 8638 times)

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Michael Tee

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Re: This is not a dictatorship
« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2007, 09:50:13 PM »
<<WHAT?  Church is for EVERYONE.  EVERYONE is supposed to be the "guy straightening the rest of them out".  That's the whole point of Church.  NO ONE IS PERFECT, which includes the Minister.  The Minister simply is the one leading everyone, but is by no means immune to being human and failing to "walk the talk".  Obviously you have no concept of what church is>>

Maybe I don't.  If you're right, any dope-smoking, skirt-chasing whoremaster has as much right to lead the congregation as an upright solid citizen who spends every night at home with his wife and kids.  I just don't think it happens like that.  I mean if it happens at all, it's because the whoremaster sneaks in under the radar with everyone thinking he's a straight arrow.  And as soon as he's found out, he's out on his ass.  Nobody says, fuck it, we're all sinners here.  That'd be absolutely nuts.

BT

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Re: This is not a dictatorship
« Reply #46 on: July 07, 2007, 10:22:35 PM »
One of the main arguments against celibacy in the Catholic Church is that priests can't council married couples with any kind of credibility because they haven't been married themselves.

Ministers who counsel the addicted have much more street cred if they have been addicted themselves.

The whole 101st Fighting keyboardists slur is aimed at hawks who never served, so it follows that a leader of a congregation who has sinned and or faced temptation might just be more understanding of the human failings of others from that experience alone.

BTW i don't think there is a right involved in being chosen to lead a congregation. Methinks it might fall more in the realm of a privilege.
 

Michael Tee

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Re: This is not a dictatorship
« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2007, 12:01:48 AM »
<<BTW i don't think there is a right involved in being chosen to lead a congregation. Methinks it might fall more in the realm of a privilege.>>

Of course.  That was just sloppy writing on my part.  But I still don't think there are too many congregations willing to be led or preached to regularly by a lying, thieving, whoring junkie on the theory that we're all sinners and this guy will understand us better.  Just never happens.

BT

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Re: This is not a dictatorship
« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2007, 12:04:53 AM »
Quote
Of course.  That was just sloppy writing on my part.  But I still don't think there are too many congregations willing to be led or preached to regularly by a lying, thieving, whoring junkie on the theory that we're all sinners and this guy will understand us better.  Just never happens.

No, but they might take a chance on an ex-lying, thieving, whoring junkie and gamble he or she doesn't relapse.

It's about redemption, after all.


sirs

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Re: This is not a dictatorship
« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2007, 03:15:41 AM »
Quote
I still don't think there are too many congregations willing to be led or preached to regularly by a lying, thieving, whoring junkie on the theory that we're all sinners and this guy will understand us better.  Just never happens.

No, but they might take a chance on an ex-lying, thieving, whoring junkie and gamble he or she doesn't relapse.   It's about redemption, after all.

BINGO
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: This is not a dictatorship
« Reply #50 on: July 08, 2007, 04:26:00 PM »
That's certainly true. Saint Paul is a great example as is Saint Augustine.

The problem of course is that this isn't a country that has done this incredible soul searching and sought penance for past wrongdoing. Lest we forget that true penance and reconcilliation with Christ is the step in between the life of constant sin and redemption. You all seem to skip that step.

In history classes, especially in High School, the treatment of loyalists is rarely taught. Similar to the US and Phillipino guerilla war. The Revolutionary War (or American Revolution) is probably one of the most poorly taught subjects. It is almost parallel with mythology. France and Spain's role is almost always minimized. Often mentioned is the brave sacrifice of the signers of the Declaration of Independence. Rarely mentioned is the sacrifice of the loyalists, who remained loyal to the rightful government. More than that, it is often never mentioned that many in the Continental Congress and American Officers engaged in outrageous profiteering during the war.

Moreover the reasons for the war are often obscured. We teach people that it was liberty, justice, the pursuit of happiness!! We often forget to mention that many of the wealthiest folks had very selfish reasons (Hancock for example was a wealthy smuggler). Also neglected is the British point of view.

I will say this though. A superpower status (though mostly paper tiger to be honest) will naturally create arrogance. For that America has been mostly restrained. I really can't think of many other countries that would do much better with it.
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gipper

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Re: This is not a dictatorship
« Reply #51 on: July 08, 2007, 04:49:14 PM »
I ask for a "bill of particulars" on the mistreatment of loyalists, provisionally positing in its absence a lack of true atrocity but rather a mere presence of perhaps harsh but superrficially rational measures to blunt the impact of enemy sympathizers, through humane means such as closing newspapers and imprisoning the most recalcitrant and likely to engage in espionage, for example.

On the general topic of Americans "repenting" for true atrocities (sins) of the past, eschewing for diversity purposes JS's prescription of a confession to Christ and reconciliation with HIM, I nonetheless urge in the strongest possible terms that a true reconciliation with what we hold dear as a "faith nation" (to coin a phrase) be embarked upon to expiate, atone and renew in an exercise that in broad outline can be embraced as salutary by any faith, political ideology or personal psychology, all packaged as reffirming the bedrock principles that hold us together as a nation.

I caution that my fantastical prescription, if it gains any sort of political traction, must be able to  shift on a dime, or better yet cohabitate ab initio and coextensively with a tough military vigilance, which will be essential to our legitimate national aims going forward by any sane reading of the prevailing geo-political circumstances.

Michael Tee

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Re: This is not a dictatorship
« Reply #52 on: July 08, 2007, 09:21:31 PM »
<<No, but they might take a chance on an ex-lying, thieving, whoring junkie and gamble he or she doesn't relapse.>>

And then again they might not.  If two preachers applied for the same job with similar resumes in hand, I think the guy without the lying, thieving, whoring junkie past might have an edge over the other guy.  The lying, thieving etc. is not generally considered a positive resume builder, even in the theological field.

<<It's about redemption, after all.>>

Yeah, and I think redemption generally starts with expressions of remorse, repentance, apologies, the begging of forgiveness, renunciations of future acts of violence, recompense for the victims, etc.

Let me know when the U.S. decides to redeem itself.  I won't hold my breath.

Plane

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Re: This is not a dictatorship
« Reply #53 on: July 08, 2007, 10:56:49 PM »
<<Why not?

<<Wern't the British into arrogance and  cruelty in those days?>>

I think most of them were pretty embarrassed by what they were doing.  They knew it was wrong and the people the troops were evicting were pretty much like the kind of people they themselves came from.  Simple farmers and townspeople.

Some of the Acadian towns on the north shore of Prince Edward Island were resettled in a few years.  The settlers hid in the bush and the British didn't even bother to look for them.

"into arrogance and cruelty" is pretty much a meaningless statement.  They had a lot of ideas about the world and their role in it and probably arrogance was a part of it but I don't know about cruelty.  Of course their criminal law was very cruel, but it never involved torture (except for the executions of traitors) and it did not condone murder.  The Acadians were certainly not considered criminals or traitors.

In any event, I'm not aware of any recorded circumstance of torture or murder of an Acadian by British troops in the course of the expulsions.

This guy is still famous in this area (Georgia) "Tarltons quarter " was a phrase meaning no quarter .


http://jrshelby.com/kimocowp/tarlton.htm
"Tarleton holds the distinction of being the most hated British officer to serve during the Revolution. Though he was probably not as bad as reported, "Bloody Ban" made himself a useful propaganda figure for his enemies. There was certainly enough truth in the accusations to justify their use. "


...........

"His command, the "British" Legion, was composed mainly of American Loyalists from New York and Pennsylvania, who wore Green jackets to distinguish them as a Tory regiment. Tarleton took his responsibilities seriously, drilling the Legion until it was one of the most effective mounted units in the army. After serving with distinction in all the major engagements in New York and Pennsylvania, he was one of the officers selected to sail down the coast with Generals Clinton and Cornwallis for another try at Charleston. "

..........

"As Tarleton explained it, his horse was shot and pinned him underneath when it fell. The Legion, thinking their commander wounded under a flag of truce, were so enraged that they attacked Buford's men again, cutting and hacking every live body they could reach, even those bodies who were kneeling on the ground with their hands up. Patriots claimed that their enemies attacked under orders from Tarleton himself, who didn't want to bother with taking prisoners. However it began, the slaughter went on for at least fifteen minutes, during which Tarleton gained the reputation he would never lose: from then on, he would be known as "Bloody Ban" or "The Butcher." "Tarleton's Quarter" became a rallying cry for patriots throughout the south, who would use it more than once to justify some of their own butchery. There is no indication that the Colonel minded his nickname, and his commander never seriously questioned his tactics. Cornwallis used the British Legion as shock troops to harry and demoralize patriot resistance; they effectively "mopped up" after the battle of Camden by chasing after and cutting down the fleeing militia units.

On August 19, Tarleton scored a brilliant victory at Fishing Creek against General Thomas Sumter, who commanded an irregular army of 1000 volunteers. Following another breakneck chase through simmering heat, he caught up with Sumter after the general had set up camp and was taking it easy. Outnumbered again, this time four to one, Tarleton charged into the encampment and broke up the army so effectively it was thought they would never assemble again. What the British failed to recognize was that terror does not necessarily crush rebellion. Tarleton's dash-and-slash tactics worked against him when, on more than one occasion, his Legion attacked and slaughtered natives who turned out to be Tories. This was no way to keep friends, but neither Tarleton nor Cornwallis seemed to grasp that some diplomacy was necessary to make the best use of the many Loyalists scattered throughout the Carolinas. "

[][][][]][][][][][][][][][]

I don't know yet about anything like this in Canada , but one of the issues for the Americans before the war was the favored treatment Canadians were getting. I will have too look it up .





Michael Tee

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Re: This is not a dictatorship
« Reply #54 on: July 08, 2007, 11:09:17 PM »
The guy sounds like a total idiot.  However, there's a big difference between fighting rebels and traitors (as Tarleton saw them) and evicting innocent farmers who owed no allegiance to the Crown in the first place and were just basically living out their lives as peacefully as they could.

Tarleton, from what you yourself posted of him, didn't even torture the American Revolutionaries, why the hell would he want to torture the Acadians?

Plane

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Re: This is not a dictatorship
« Reply #55 on: July 08, 2007, 11:26:28 PM »
Well it isn't as bad as British behavior in India or Kenya seems a though many of the Acadians could have stayed if they were willing to swear and oath that was an anaethema to their religion.
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]


An Acadian delegation arrived in Halifax in 1755 with a petition to present to the lieutenant-governor of Nova Scotia, Colonel Charles Lawrence. Lawrence demanded that they take the oath of allegiance; the petitioners refused and Lawrence had them imprisoned. Under pressure from the Province of Massachusetts Bay and the British admiral in Halifax, Lawrence ordered the mass deportation of the Acadians despite earlier cautions from British authorities against drastic action.

In what is known as the Great Expulsion (Grand D?rangement), more than 12,000 Acadians (three-fourths of the Acadian population in Nova Scotia) were expelled from the colony between 1755 and 1764. The British destroyed around 6,000 Acadian houses and dispersed the Acadians among the 13 colonies from Massachusetts to Georgia. Although there were no purposeful attempts to separate families, this did occur in the chaos of the eviction. Popular historian Tim Frink writes on the contrary that "the separation of the men from their families" indeed was purposefully planned and undertaken from the beginning of the upheaval. He adds "no effort was made to keep families together" (Frink, 1999). Members of the same family and community were sent to different colonies to impose assimilation.

The largest group of Acadians, 3,500, were sent to Poitou, France. Other groups were forcibly settled throughout North America: Qu?bec (2,000), Nova Scotia (1,249), Massachusetts (1,043), South Carolina (942), Maryland (810), Baie des Chaleurs (700), Connecticut (666), Pennsylvania (383), Ile Saint-Jean (300), Louisiana (300), North Carolina (280), New York (249), Georgia (185), and along the St. John River (86). Another 866 were sent to England.

Some Acadians escaped into the woods and lived with the Mi'kmaq; some bands of partisans fought the British, including a group led by Joseph Broussard, known as Beausoleil, along the Peticodiac River of New Brunswick. Some followed the coast northward, facing famine and disease. Some were recaptured, facing deportation or imprisonment at Fort Beausejour (renamed Fort Cumberland) until 1763.

The Acadians who were deported to what is now the United States were met by British colonists who treated them much like African slaves. Some Acadians became indentured servants. Massachusetts passed a law in November 1755 placing the Acadians under the custody of "justices of the peace and overseers of the poor"; Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Connecticut adopted similar laws. The Province of Virginia under Robert Dinwiddie initially agreed to resettle about one thousand Acadians who arrived in the colony but later ordered most deported to England, writing that the "French people" were "intestine enemies" that were "mudr'd and scalp'd our frontier settlers."

Other Acadians were deported to France, where many had to live in the slums of Nantes or on Belle-Isle off Brittany. The French islands of St. Pierre and Miquelon near Newfoundland became a safe harbor for many Acadian families until they were once again deported by the British in 1778 and 1793.

After the end of the Seven Years War in 1763, Acadians were allowed to return to Nova Scotia as long as they did not settle in any one area in large numbers; they were not permitted to resettle in the areas of Port Royal or Grand-Pr?. Some Acadians resettled along the Nova Scotia coast and remain scattered across Nova Scotia to this day.

Many dispersed Acadians looked for other homes. Beginning in 1764, groups of Acadians began to arrive in Louisiana (which had been passed to Spanish control in 1762). They eventually became known as Cajuns.

See also:

Seven Years' War
Battle of the Plains of Abraham
Treaty of Paris 1763


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Acadians

Plane

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Re: This is not a dictatorship
« Reply #56 on: July 08, 2007, 11:29:27 PM »
The guy sounds like a total idiot.  However, there's a big difference between fighting rebels and traitors (as Tarleton saw them) and evicting innocent farmers who owed no allegiance to the Crown in the first place and were just basically living out their lives as peacefully as they could.

Tarleton, from what you yourself posted of him, didn't even torture the American Revolutionaries, why the hell would he want to torture the Acadians?

No, he was just shooting them , dead seems to have been enough for him.

Notice that most of the time he was the commander of colonial loyalist troops , some of whom had to leave later.

Plane

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Re: This is not a dictatorship
« Reply #57 on: July 09, 2007, 12:09:56 AM »
http://www.acadian-home.org/Maryland-AcadiansInExile.html


Here is a good discussion of Acadia and British occupation .


The British seem to have been in an impossible situation , though they made a gift of good government to the French Canadans and assured them that they could keep their cultre intact  there were many instances of terrorism and resistance , religious leaders stirred the faitfull to violence and insolence .

This rings a bell for me , what more recent event shares such features?

Michael Tee

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Re: This is not a dictatorship
« Reply #58 on: July 09, 2007, 12:26:49 AM »
So, bottom line is, no comparison between Loyalist refugees from the American Revolution, who were tortured by the Americans, and Cajuns expelled by the British to the U.S.A., who were not tortured by the British.

Just as I thought.  The British are basically good guys.  In comparison to the Americans.

BT

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Re: This is not a dictatorship
« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2007, 12:37:40 AM »
Quote
Just as I thought.  The British are basically good guys.  In comparison to the Americans.

Maybe the Brits knew better. Americans apparently didn't. Even way back then.