DebateGate

General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: sirs on October 28, 2006, 02:08:25 AM

Title: Open letter to the Left
Post by: sirs on October 28, 2006, 02:08:25 AM
as applied from the open letter to Andy Rooney via Larry Elder
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Open letter to Andy Rooney

Posted: October 26, 2006

Dear Mr. Rooney,

You ask, in your recent "60 Minutes" commentary, for the president to finally flat-out "explain" why we have troops in Iraq. While busy preparing your commentaries, you perhaps failed to hear the president explain this – over and over and over again.

Allow me to try.

The world changed for many – apparently not you – after 9-11.

Saddam Hussein violated numerous United Nations resolutions following the first Persian Gulf War. Saddam's military continuously shot at U.S. and British planes patrolling the Northern and Southern No-Fly Zones. He offered $25,000 to families of homicide bombers. We know he possessed chemical and biological weapons because he used them during the Iraq/Iran war, and on his own people, the Kurds.

The October '02 National Intelligence Estimate concluded with "high confidence" – the highest certainty allowed – that Saddam possessed stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons. All 16 intelligence agencies contributing to the NIE unanimously agreed on the chemical and biological weapons assumptions, with disagreement only on how far along Saddam was toward acquiring nukes.

Weapons inspectors found no WMD stockpiles, leading many Americans to feel that the president either lied or cherry-picked intelligence to lead us into war. But
- the Robb-Silverman Commission concluded that the president didn't lie.
- the bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee's 511-page report concluded that the president did not lie.
- the British Butler Commission, which examined whether Prime Minister Tony Blair "sexed up" the intelligence to make a case for war, concluded the PM didn't lie.

Kenneth Pollack, an opponent of the Iraq war, served as Iraq expert and intelligence analyst in the Clinton administration. Pollack writes that during his 1999-2001 tour on the National Security Council, " ... the intelligence community convinced me and the rest of the Clinton administration that Saddam had reconstituted his WMD programs following the withdrawal of the U.N. inspectors, in 1998, and was only a matter of years away from having a nuclear weapon. ... The U.S. intelligence community's belief that Saddam was aggressively pursuing weapons of mass destruction pre-dated Bush's inauguration, and therefore cannot be attributed to political pressure. ... Other nations' intelligence services were similarly aligned with U.S. views. ... Germany ... Israel, Russia, Britain, China and even France held positions similar to that of the United States. … In sum, no one doubted that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction."  

Meanwhile, neighboring Iran defiantly pursues nuclear weapons. Bush reasoned that a free, democratic and prosperous Iraq would destabilize Iran, accomplishing regime change without military force. This would encourage the rest of the Arab world to direct their grievances toward their own leaders, rather than against the "infidels."

We remain in Iraq because, as former Secretary of State James Baker put it, "If we picked up and left right now ... you would see the biggest civil war you've ever seen. Every neighboring country would be involved in there, doing its own thing, Turkey, Iran, Syria, you name it, and even our friends in the Gulf."  

Former Secretary of State and informal Bush adviser Henry Kissinger – who knows something about the consequences of cutting and running – wrote, "Victory over the insurgency is the only meaningful exit strategy."  

The political aim of our Islamofascist enemies is a worldwide Caliphate, or Islamic world. Renowned Islam expert Bernard Lewis recently reiterated his support for the war: "The response to 9-11 came as a nasty surprise [to bin Laden and his followers]. They were expecting more of the same – bleating and apologies – instead of which they got a vigorous reaction, first in Afghanistan and then in Iraq. And as they used to say in Moscow: It is no accident, comrades, that there has been no successful attack in the United States since then. ... [T]he effort is difficult and the outcome uncertain, but I think the effort must be made. Either we bring them freedom, or they destroy us."

True, 2,800 of our best have died. Any figure above zero is a tragedy. But America – on both sides of the Civil War – lost more than 600,000 soldiers, or 2 percent of the country's population of 31 million. Of our country's 132 million, we lost more than 400,000 in World War II, or .3 percent of our population. In the Korean War, we lost 37,000, and the Vietnam War saw 58,000 dead.

Many people say that after failing to find stockpiles of WMD, Bush "switched" rationales for the war. Consider this excerpt from a New York Times editorial about a speech Bush gave weeks before the coalition entered Iraq:

"President Bush sketched an expansive vision last night of what he expects to accomplish by a war in Iraq. Instead of focusing on eliminating weapons of mass destruction, or reducing the threat of terror to the United States, Mr. Bush talked about establishing a 'free and peaceful Iraq' that would serve as a 'dramatic and inspiring example' to the entire Arab and Muslim world, provide a stabilizing influence in the Middle East and even help end the Arab-Israeli conflict."

Still confused? Please write back, and I'll try again.

Sincerely yours,

Larry Elder


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52624
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: sirs on October 28, 2006, 09:39:21 PM
(http://www.cagle.com/working/061025/asay.gif)
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: domer on October 28, 2006, 10:07:17 PM
From this argument, one may infer that the initial decision to invade Iraq was not negligent or reckless, or one may infer the contrary. Certainly in retrospect, however, the invasion was a monumental mistake.
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: sirs on October 29, 2006, 01:39:01 AM
From this argument, one may infer that the initial decision to invade Iraq was not negligent or reckless, or one may infer the contrary. Certainly in retrospect, however, the invasion was a monumental mistake.

That certainly is one opinion
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: The_Professor on October 29, 2006, 02:40:45 PM
Well, I didn't advocate this incursion and still don't. That being said, you could argue that the invasion itself is one matter and the governance after is yet another. Some people honestly felt that it was necessary to topple a dictator, in this case, Saddam. But, those same people tell me they advocated passing the baton and leaving then. Of course, this last part didn't happen, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: Plane on October 29, 2006, 04:55:41 PM
How long did it take to establish government in post WWII contries?


What is diffrent now?
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: The_Professor on October 29, 2006, 05:58:15 PM
impatience rules....different culture, an instant one.
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: sirs on October 29, 2006, 10:02:43 PM
impatience rules....different culture, an instant one.

Boy, ain't that the truth.  But don't discount the 24/7 left leaning mainscream machine.  Can you imagine if CNN were around during D-day?  Battle of the Bulge?  Broadcasting not just 10, not just hundreds, but thousands of American deaths in just 1 battle?  Add to it all the military mistakes made along the way in a very brutal & ugly war?  I don't think the populace would have allowed us to remain in there beyond '42, with the amount of casualties we were taking.  I'm guessing the cry would have been to bring our boys home.  Don't you?
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: The_Professor on October 29, 2006, 10:34:44 PM
Sirs, a friend of mine uses this phrase which I see as so true these days:

"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: sirs on October 29, 2006, 10:38:31 PM
Sirs, a friend of mine uses this phrase which I see as so true these days: "Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."

Scary, especially if true
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: Brassmask on October 30, 2006, 12:32:17 PM
The article is just the same old bullshit from morons but the cartoon got me thinking.

Those of us on the left seem to work from a place where we understand our place in the world and the universe.  Those on the right seem to think that we, as humans, own the universe.

Those on the left seem to understand that we have to work with our environment naturally in order have the environment continue to sustain us into perpetuity.  Those on the right seem to think that the environment is merely the place where we, as humans, exist to get all we can before it's gone.


Those on the left seem to understand that there is a need for balance in the universe.  If we have something, everyone should have it.  A plus for us should be a plus for everyone who wants it.  The Right believes the opposite.  What is a plus for us is something to be guarded and witheld for advantage over others and personal gain over others.  (This is the idea behind our being allowed to have nukes while Iran or North Korea should not be allowed.) 

Those on the left see the differences in the world and want to explore them, to understand them.  Those on the right want to change those who are different to be more like themselves.

Those of the left believe in offering the carrot first then the stick is the last resort.  The right believes in holding the stick over someone's head and if that doesn't work then it is a sign of weakness to use the carrot after all else fails.

The left works from hope.  The right works from fear.

When we act like ourselves, we win.  But we've been so fear-stricken by the right that we are acting like them.

The left believes in solving problems and creating peace.  The right believes in erasing dissent and "winning".
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: BT on October 30, 2006, 01:05:44 PM
Quote
The left works from hope.  The right works from fear

Harold Ford said something along those lines. He said dems love and fear God. He said the GOP just fears God.

Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: Plane on October 30, 2006, 01:09:53 PM
" If we have something, everyone should have it. "



Guns?
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: Brassmask on October 30, 2006, 01:18:13 PM
Guns?

Sure, why not?

I'm really libertarian when it comes to stuff like guns and drugs.  Let the states handle it.  If NY wants to ban assault rifles then fine.  Let em.

Let people smoke all the pot and take all the heroine they want.
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: Plane on October 30, 2006, 01:23:51 PM
Guns?

Sure, why not?

I'm really libertarian when it comes to stuff like guns and drugs.  Let the states handle it.  If NY wants to ban assault rifles then fine.  Let em.

Let people smoke all the pot and take all the heroine they want.



Even Libertarians are seldom heard to endorse passing guns out at the insane asylum.

Will any prominent Democrat go on record endorseing Kim Jung Ill haveing Atomic ICBM's?
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: Brassmask on October 30, 2006, 01:26:59 PM
Of course, this is the same old strawman bullshit.

Nobody said anything about handing out guns at insane asylums.

Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: Plane on October 30, 2006, 01:32:33 PM
Of course, this is the same old strawman bullshit.

Nobody said anything about handing out guns at insane asylums.




To quote Sirs....

<----------Whoosh----------

::)
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: _JS on October 30, 2006, 01:59:03 PM
Quote
How long did it take to establish government in post WWII contries?


What is diffrent now?

Not all that long.

What is different now? In post World War II countries we did not have different groups shooting at us or the new governments. I think you failed to mention that, as did Sirs before he went into full victimisation mode.
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: Plane on October 30, 2006, 02:14:39 PM
The establishment of the Iron Curtain does not count?
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: _JS on October 30, 2006, 02:19:29 PM
If you like, you can count it.

The DDR was set up in 1949 and was done relatively peacefully.

I was assuming that you and Sirs were comparing the governments of Western Europe that came under United States' influence. I had no idea we were planning on setting up a Soviet Sattellite state in Iraq ;)
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: larry on October 30, 2006, 05:01:22 PM
This thread is debating the symptoms of something much bigger. Contemporary Sociology And Human Resource Management. Due to the advances of technology, America has become a prison system. I have eleven forms of Identification in my wallet. Most of you have even more. Americans are being manipulated with state controlled media. Psychological conditioning and total institutional socialization is the bigger issue.
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: The_Professor on October 30, 2006, 05:03:58 PM
Ha, the ultimate in Conspiracy Theory.

Well, larry, don't worry: pretty soon, you will only have ONE form of national ID, a National ID card and/or it embedded in a chip on your wrist.
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: _JS on October 30, 2006, 05:08:21 PM
Quote
and/or it embedded in a chip on your wrist

Do they still publish The Late Great Planet Earth?
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: Plane on October 30, 2006, 05:16:29 PM
If you like, you can count it.

The DDR was set up in 1949 and was done relatively peacefully.

I was assuming that you and Sirs were comparing the governments of Western Europe that came under United States' influence. I had no idea we were planning on setting up a Soviet Sattellite state in Iraq ;)


After WWII overthrown governments were started over or started from scratch all over Europe and Asia.

But each one had less outside interference than Iraq does.


Japan and South Korea have turned out pretty well , too bad about France.


If Iraq can't do better than France shall I call it all a failure?

(I mean that France has not become a sept of the US hegemon)
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: The_Professor on October 30, 2006, 05:16:46 PM
Yep, sold well over a million copies. Want one? I'll buy it and ship it to you...Or, I've got one or two at home. Right next to Mere Christinaity, the Great Divorce, Angelwalk, Stedfast, Paradise Lost, all classics.
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: larry on October 30, 2006, 05:22:25 PM
Ha, the ultimate in Conspiracy Theory.

Its not a theory, it is a work in progress. A TV in every home and a monopoly control of production and distribution. Its a dictator's dream come true.
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: sirs on October 30, 2006, 07:47:52 PM
The article is just the same old bullshit from morons.

How so?  Where?


.. but the cartoon got me thinking

Now there's a dangerous precedent    ;)


The left believes in solving problems and creating peace.  The right believes in erasing dissent and "winning".

That would be the act of transference, I do believe.  Especially considering how often the right is trying to solve problems (SS, Foreign Oil dependency, Medicare, the deficit, war on Terrorism, etc), and it's the left that keeps crying foul, stop, don't do that
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: Plane on October 30, 2006, 07:56:25 PM
(http://www.cagle.com/working/061025/asay.gif)


Guns?

Sure, why not?

I'm really libertarian when it comes to stuff like guns and drugs.  Let the states handle it.  If NY wants to ban assault rifles then fine.  Let em.

Let people smoke all the pot and take all the heroine they want.


Should Kim Ill Jung have the A-bomb just because this is fairness , or should the rules against the insane and convicted having guns not be scaled up to include the insane and unelectable government of N. Korea?
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: Brassmask on October 31, 2006, 10:21:59 AM

That would be the act of transference, I do believe.  Especially considering how often the right is trying to solve problems (SS, Foreign Oil dependency, Medicare, the deficit, war on Terrorism, etc), and it's the left that keeps crying foul, stop, don't do that

Wow, you're really out of your mind, aren't you?  Ending SS is not "solving the problem".  Allowing price collusion amongst the oil companies is not really indicative of a "fix".  Making Medicare more confusing and adding cost to the elderly is not what I would consider making Medicare better.  In order to solve the problem of the deficit, it helps if you don't CREATE ONE out of the highest surplus in history.  And conducting Terror and then pretending to conduct a War on Terror (a laughable if not so tragic idea at best) is just insane.

Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: Brassmask on October 31, 2006, 10:24:13 AM
Plane,

Il is the ruler of a country of millions.  They should be allowed to follow their own path.  If they fear their neighbors then they should be allowed to defend themselves.

We do it.  We've attacked another country just for kicks.  Why can't they?  What moral authority grants us the right to kill over half a million people just because we can?

Because we have more bombs?
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: sirs on October 31, 2006, 10:34:59 AM
Ending SS is not "solving the problem".  

Actually, that'd be a lie, Brass.  SS is in need of serious fixing.  Care to show me where Bush and the right was trying to "end it" outright?  

Allowing price collusion amongst the oil companies is not really indicative of a "fix".  

Another lie.  Investigation after investigation, after congressional hearing after congressional hearing concluded NO COLLUSION

Making Medicare more confusing and adding cost to the elderly is not what I would consider making Medicare better.

Actually we had a bipartisan group of folks assigned to look into areas that could be fixed, and the only thing that happened was that Bush stole the Dem "fix" by adding the Rx drug program on top of it

In order to solve the problem of the deficit, it helps if you don't create one out of the highest surplus in history

And advocating the removal of tax cuts that spurred some serious shrinking of the deficit doesn't "solve the problem" either

And conducting Terror and then pretending to conduct a War on Terror is just insane

And that last one falls into the realm of Brass-land gibberish.  But I do thank you for helping make my point.  
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: sirs on October 31, 2006, 10:39:04 AM
Il is the ruler of a country of millions.  They should be allowed to follow their own path.  If they fear their neighbors then they should be allowed to defend themselves.  We do it.  We've attacked another country just for kicks.  Why can't they?  What moral authority grants us the right to kill over half a million people just because we can?

Andy Rooney illogic rationalized & personified   
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: Brassmask on October 31, 2006, 10:47:06 AM
Answer me this.  What gives you the right to decide something for a whole 'nother country?

Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: sirs on October 31, 2006, 11:13:38 AM
Answer me this.  What gives you the right to decide something for a whole 'nother country?

When that whole 'nother country is being run by a ruthless insane dictator, and the only "something" were referring to are his nukes.   And perhaps you missed the part where it's not just us evil Americans trying to tell Il what to do regarding his nukes.  Try the UN.  Try the Global community is attempting to get Il to listen to what they're trying to say.

So, you indeed support the idea that asylum inmates be allowed to carry guns?  It's only fair, right?  They have to be able to defend themselves.  Heck, so do hard core criminals, right?
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: _JS on October 31, 2006, 12:24:35 PM
Quote
Yep, sold well over a million copies. Want one? I'll buy it and ship it to you...Or, I've got one or two at home.

No thanks. Originally Lindsey (or Carlson, whomever was the real author) indicated that 1988 was the date of the rapture, but it seems that the timeline has been revised. I don't put much stock in dispensationalism. Lindsey is no different than William Miller.

Thanks for the offer though. I've never understood why some Christians are so obsessed with the end times.
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: _JS on October 31, 2006, 12:28:35 PM
Quote
After WWII overthrown governments were started over or started from scratch all over Europe and Asia.

But each one had less outside interference than Iraq does.


Japan and South Korea have turned out pretty well , too bad about France.


If Iraq can't do better than France shall I call it all a failure?

First of all, there are a great deal of Koreans who were seriously harmed by the dictatorship of South Korea who would likely disagree that France was a "failure."

Each one had less outside interference? Are you serious? The Koreas had less interference than Iraq? Greece had less outside interference than Iraq? Germany had less outside interference than Iraq? Indonesia, Chile, Malaysia? Apologies, but I'm calling bullshit on this one.
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: Plane on October 31, 2006, 07:33:16 PM
Plane,

Ill is the ruler of a country of millions.  They should be allowed to follow their own path.  If they fear their neighbors then they should be allowed to defend themselves.

We do it.  We've attacked another country just for kicks.  Why can't they?  What moral authority grants us the right to kill over half a million people just because we can?

Because we have more bombs?


Kim Ill Jung is ruler because he has the guns , this is the extent of his legitimacy .

We have more of that same legitimacy than he does.
Title: Re: Open letter to the Left
Post by: Plane on October 31, 2006, 07:39:04 PM
Quote
In order to solve the problem of the deficit, it helps if you don't CREATE ONE out of the highest surplus in history."


Well this is not true at all , but you would have to do a small amount of math to provbe it.


Take any year in the last twenty that the government showed a "surplus" , during that year you will find that there was a national debt nearly as large as the previous year , Clinton did very little to pay down the Debt and squandered the oppurtunity .


Also....

Take any one of those years "surplus" in tax receipts , subtract the Social Security tax recipt and vollia! same sort of deficit as any other year.

Social Security should never have been stolen and given to the general fund where it enabled the government to grow like crazy without justifying anything.

Social security Tax recipts peaked during the Clinton era , this would have happened for anyone .