Author Topic: Collapse of U.S. economy is a certainty - only the manner in which it happens  (Read 2476 times)

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Plane

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Debt forgiveness.

Bush pushed large debt forgiveness for african countrys.

Who will forgive our debts?


BTW how embarrassing to be a millionaire when inflation gallops.

Michael Tee

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Who has to forgive debts to the banks?  Bank interest can be frozen at rates so low that the banks will jump to get 10 cents on the dollar for their toxic assets, giving millions of people a chance to buy back some of the country from the rich. 

Amianthus

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Can anyone make sense of this paragraph?  No, because it's total nonsense.  First of all, this guy has no way in hell of knowing if Wall Street banks still have "trillions of dollars of toxic assets hidden off their books."  What a load of crap.  How could Federal and State bank inspectors miss trillions of dollars of hidden assets?  What were they purchased with?  How were they acquired?

Perhaps some reading comprehension is in order. He said that the assets were off their balance sheet, not "hidden off their books"; also it's bad form to pretend to quote words that aren't there.

The paragraph makes perfect sense to me. I don't know what part is confusing, unless you think a balance sheet is the entirety of the bank's "books" - if so, perhaps you should take some double entry book keeping classes.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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<<Perhaps some reading comprehension is in order. He said that the assets were off their balance sheet, not "hidden off their books"; also it's bad form to pretend to quote words that aren't there.

<<The paragraph makes perfect sense to me. I don't know what part is confusing, unless you think a balance sheet is the entirety of the bank's "books" - if so, perhaps you should take some double entry book keeping classes.>>


"Being hidden off their balance sheets" was the precise phrase that he used.  It is bullshit because bad loans are not "hidden off the balance sheet" they appear as assets, possibly overvalued when not written down, but not hidden.  The "books" include the financial statements, which are basically summaries, and would definitely have to include the "toxic" assets, overvalued or not, so maybe YOU are the one who ought to be taking the bookkeeping classes.

Xavier_Onassis

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Yeah, Kramer is right. All the big-city Black mayors are Democrats, which of course, means they are totally incompetent and corrupt and to blame for the economic crisis. Now if they were Republicans with important NFL experience, then they would be the salvation of the country. It is amazing how simple things are in the Bizarro world of slip-slidin' Kramer

I really doubt that forgiving loans to African countries would make any real difference, as they could not pay back their loans. I think that forgiven loans to Israel over the years have been much more than the sum total of loans to Africa. The reason the debts were forgiven was to lend more money in hopes that this time, the money would fund something that would benefit the people.

It is nice to know that one's money could be safe in a country with a gold standard. Does anyone have a list of said countries? I think that the number of countries with a gold standard might well be r zero. So it would be as useful to save in a country with a platinum, palladium or perhaps mackerel backed currency. None of those, either.

Inflation is very low at the moment. Most people with a million in assets have it in something other than cash, anyway. That means that their assets will be unlikely to duplicate any inflation rate of cash.

I find it rather disgusting that the reactionaries are cheering for the collapse of the economy, and thing that magically, replacing Democrats with Black jocks is somehow going to redeem this situation. If you are on a sinking boat, cheering for a bigger leak in the hull just seems stupid. Really stupid.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Amianthus

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"Being hidden off their balance sheets" was the precise phrase that he used.

And yet you "quoted" it as "being hidden off their books" - which is a far different concept.

Assets on a balance sheet are listed using their value at acquisition (for home loans this would be the appraised value at the time of the initial purchase for the current loan). It doesn't become a loss until they sell it at a loss. While common wisdom says that these assets will probably lose money if they're sold there is no guarantee that they will, so as long as they stay on the bank's balance sheet their value is the value at appraisal. Standard book keeping for long term assets. Short term assets depreciate in value at a fixed rate, unless they're scrapped or sold before they're fully depreciated.

And again, the balance sheet is only a part of a corporation's "books". The others are generally the income statement (sometimes called a "profit and loss statement"), the retained earnings statement, and the cash flows statement.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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<<And yet you "quoted" it as "being hidden off their books" - which is a far different concept.>>

"Far different" my ass.  The balance sheets are a summary of the books.  Hidden off the balance sheet couldn't happen unless something was also hidden off the books.  Furthermore, most people include the financial statements (including the balance sheet) when referring to "the books" of a company.

<<Assets on a balance sheet are listed using their value at acquisition (for home loans this would be the appraised value at the time of the initial purchase for the current loan). It doesn't become a loss until they sell it at a loss.>>

That is pure rubbish.  A bank lists its loans as assets - - accounts receivable.  The value of the security given (commonly a home) is never listed as an asset. 

<<While common wisdom says that these assets will probably lose money if they're sold there is no guarantee that they will, so as long as they stay on the bank's balance sheet their value is the value at appraisal. Standard book keeping for long term assets. Short term assets depreciate in value at a fixed rate, unless they're scrapped or sold before they're fully depreciated.>>

You are confused.  The homes don't become bank assets until the loans go into default and the homes are foreclosed.  Until foreclosure, title to the home remains in the borrower.  I would guess that good accounting practice, as regulated by state and local laws, would determine how a bank would carry a defaulted loan on its books - - the possibilities are, it could be completely written off as a bad debt, it could be carried at full face value, or it could be written down either to an arbitrarily set percentage or to a realistic estimate of likely recovery.  Only a bank accountant could tell you what practice any particular bank (depending in part on the governing state legislation) would follow in recording the value of the loan asset in such circumstances.

When the property is foreclosed, the loan may remain an asset if the mortgage contained a free-standing personal covenant to repay that would survive foreclosure, or if guaranteed by third parties.  The foreclosed home would have to be carried as an asset on the books of the bank, subject to liabilities such as the obligation to pay the borrower any surplus over his debt realized after sale of the foreclosed property.

<<<And again, the balance sheet is only a part of a corporation's "books". The others are generally the income statement (sometimes called a "profit and loss statement"), the retained earnings statement, and the cash flows statement.>>

Correct, plus the various ledgers and journals known as books of original entry.  However, the "toxic assets" which the original article referred to would in fact be expected to appear on the balance sheet.

Amianthus

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You are confused.  The homes don't become bank assets until the loans go into default and the homes are foreclosed.

That's what we're discussing - foreclosed homes that the banks are holding onto rather than putting onto the market.

Perhaps you are the one confused?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Amianthus

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That is pure rubbish.  A bank lists its loans as assets - - accounts receivable.  The value of the security given (commonly a home) is never listed as an asset.  

Actually, loan payments made are listed as income. Loan payments that are due but outstanding are listed as receivables. Future loan payments aren't listed at all (they're not receivables or income until they're due).

*edit: sorry, future loan payments are listed as "notes receivable"
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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<<That's what we're discussing - foreclosed homes that the banks are holding onto rather than putting onto the market.

<<Perhaps you are the one confused?>>

Nope.  I was giving the whole picture - - how the loans are carried on the books as loans, before default, and how the security is carried after foreclosure, when it actually becomes property of the bank.  I responded to statements purportedly dealing with the loan , rather than the security, specifically this one:

<<Assets on a balance sheet are listed using their value at acquisition (for home loans this would be the appraised value at the time of the initial purchase for the current loan).  >>

A home loan is not carried at appraised value of security, it is carried at the principal amount of the loan itself, as long as it is not in default (and perhaps even after default, if accounting rules for the banks, which mostly vary from state to state, would permit.)  I don't think appraised value would be the book value of a realized (foreclosed) security, except in cases where the foreclosure followed fairly quickly after the appraisal.  Appraisals must be current if they are used to justify book value, the actual period of time over which appraisals may be considered valid would probably also vary from state to state.

Plane

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How did large finance companys and banks get AAA from morningstar right up till they day they broke the buck?


How indeed do you hide the low odds of being paid back for a large fraction of your loans outstanding?