Author Topic: Oh brother  (Read 11122 times)

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Plane

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Re: Oh brother
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2008, 02:44:24 AM »

Sorry, but you don't get a free pass just because you stay inside fretting for your life and worrying about thugs and burglars all the damned time. I could care less if it is a normal assumption. Killing a person takes more than gut reactions in a civil society. You take a life, you'll have to do better than "my wife was ranting about something, so I shot the guy."


I see.

Knowing what that man knew and no more , you would have stood still and let him run up and hug you?

hnumpah

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Re: Oh brother
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2008, 07:45:46 AM »
Quote
Knowing what that man knew and no more , you would have stood still and let him run up and hug you?

Four words:

Aim for center mass.
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

Michael Tee

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Re: Oh brother
« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2008, 12:02:22 PM »
The metallic object was a camera. It did not disappear.

The Japanese kid's friends said that he had a habit of running at people to give them hugs. Also, he was not wearing his contacts, which is why he didn't see the gun.

Knowing the facts makes it more plausible. Not that you care to hear the facts when you're on a good anti-America rant.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 If I were on an anti-American rant I would have condemned the guy whose story started the thread.  But don't let fact and logic get in your way when you're defending the indefensible.

The whole story has a very bad, concocted-in-the-lawyer's-office, ex post facto smell about it.  It is obvious the lawyer, having dug up every scrap of information he had about the victim, came up with one little nugget that would look like shit to the average man on the street, but was solid 24-carat gold to a good criminal defence attorney.  Yoshihiro Hattori was an affectionate young man who loved to run up to his friends to hug them.  Beautiful.

HIS FRIENDS.  He ran up to his friends to hug them.  The evidence that he would run up to a total stranger, a female, in a strange house, to hug her too, is pure fantasy.  Legally, if you're an unethical lawyer, it is close to genius, however.  So Hattori runs up to this strange woman, whom he's never seen before, to hug her.  And what does she do in response to this friendly overture?  Retreats and slams the fucking door in his face.

Not at all daunted by this stern rejection of his playful advances, Hattori next encounters an angry adult white man, shouting a single word at him "FREEZE!!" and pointing at him, probably with an outstretched arm, and apparently having completely forgotten his earlier rebuff, Hattori decides that the angry white man who is shouting an incomprehensible word at him also needs a big hug.  Runs at him,too, and the game is over.  More mileage from the words "run" and "hug" was never squeezed out from them prior to the trial of Hattori's murderer.

There were probably plenty of facts left out from even this concocted defence - - the lighting in the carport, Hattori's vision given the prevailing conditions at the time, whether it's likely or not that he would have not recognized the object in his killer's hand as a weapon and the actual physical appearance (shape, size, colour) of the weapon itself.  Was the killer in a shooter's stance, was he pointing the gun at arm's length, how far was Hattori from the gun when it was fired, what was the physical appearance of Hattori's camera, how was it being held, pointed at the killer or hanging down at the end of Hattori's arm?

The other big question of course, which was raised in the post previous to this, was what kind of moron goes out with a loaded handgun to investigate a report of kids in his car-port?  He precipitated the entire crisis and made a fatal outcome a distinct possibility the moment he walked out with a loaded gun in his hand.  And over what?  the possible theft of a hood ornament from his car?  Here in Canada we have an offence, criminal negligence causing death.  That is the LEAST that this schmuck could have been convicted of and IMHO should have been convicted of.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 12:05:37 PM by Michael Tee »

_JS

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Re: Oh brother
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2008, 12:44:02 PM »

Sorry, but you don't get a free pass just because you stay inside fretting for your life and worrying about thugs and burglars all the damned time. I could care less if it is a normal assumption. Killing a person takes more than gut reactions in a civil society. You take a life, you'll have to do better than "my wife was ranting about something, so I shot the guy."


I see.

Knowing what that man knew and no more , you would have stood still and let him run up and hug you?

I'd never have gone outside.

Plane, nothing I own is worth a human life.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: Oh brother
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2008, 03:06:10 PM »
Quote
Knowing what that man knew and no more , you would have stood still and let him run up and hug you?

Four words: Aim for center mass.

ditto
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Oh brother
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2008, 03:39:05 PM »
Sobering and disappointing responses.  Not only are many Americans armed and dangerous, but it appears as well they are incapable of learning from past mistakes.

Happy Fourth of July, cowboys.  Try not to kill too many of your fellow citizens during the festivities.

sirs

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Re: Oh brother
« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2008, 03:40:31 PM »
No intentions of such, until someone threatens me or my family's life, then all bets are off
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: Oh brother
« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2008, 04:08:50 PM »
No intentions of such, until someone threatens me or my family's life, then all bets are off

 ::)

When you become a killer, you get back to me on that. It is easy to watch westerns, read the NRA magazine, and shoot at targets. It is a hell of a lot different to actually take another person's life or attempt to do so.

A really good friend of mine from university is now a Park Ranger for the NPS. Unfortunately Rangers are often put into situations where they deal with armed folks with no backup. In fact, they deal with armed people much more often than the police. Part of the secret is to act like the meanest, biggest, toughest son of a bitch who ever walked the face of the planet. You'd be amazed how often a Park Ranger walks away with illegal firearms, or arrests poachers. Many of these people talk big, especially after a few beers. They have NRA stickers on their rear windshields. But when push comes to shove...they're not going to pull that trigger.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: Oh brother
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2008, 04:16:49 PM »
No intentions of such, until someone threatens me or my family's life, then all bets are off

 ::)

When you become a killer, you get back to me on that.

I pray I never gets to such an extreme scenario.  But if it ever becomes such, I'll get back to yas, though not sure what for.  What might your questions, be, if you don't mind me asking?


It is easy to watch westerns, read the NRA magazine, and shoot at targets. It is a hell of a lot different to actually take another person's life or attempt to do so.

No one has claimed otherwise.  That's why I've taken multiple safety firearms courses, and participated in IDPA events.  But that's just me


"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Amianthus

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Re: Oh brother
« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2008, 07:38:18 PM »
The whole story has a very bad, concocted-in-the-lawyer's-office, ex post facto smell about it.  It is obvious the lawyer, having dug up every scrap of information he had about the victim, came up with one little nugget that would look like shit to the average man on the street, but was solid 24-carat gold to a good criminal defence attorney.  Yoshihiro Hattori was an affectionate young man who loved to run up to his friends to hug them.  Beautiful.

Wonder how the defense attorney got Hattori's friends to say that about him. And also got them to tell people that Hattori wasn't wearing his contacts that night, so he wasn't able to see very clearly.

Of course, you seem to think the laws of thermodynamics are optional, so I'm pretty sure we can all discount most of what you think.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Oh brother
« Reply #40 on: July 04, 2008, 07:49:53 PM »
<<Wonder how the defense attorney got Hattori's friends to say that about him.>>

That's easy.  He didn't.  He just collected a shitload of data about Hattori, and as I said, one little nugget of fact that wouldn't look like much to the average layman, or even to the average defence attorney, leapt out at him:  Hattori loved to rush up and hug his friends.  Counsel saw the gold beneath the shit, realized what he could make of this, and he did a great job of it, probably coaxing out the "hidden memories" his clients must have had of the kid rushing them both.

<< And also got them to tell people that Hattori wasn't wearing his contacts that night, so he wasn't able to see very clearly.>>

Nah, that's from a combination of autopsy reports, medical records and/or optical prescription records.  Oldest trick in the book - - put the deceased on trial instead of the accused.  Half-assed underfunded public prosecution did the rest - - probably never got an expert witness to testify that even without contacts, Hattori could probably have seen well enough to recognize a gun in his murderer's hand.

<<Of course, you seem to think the laws of thermodynamics are optional, so I'm pretty sure we can all discount most of what you think.>>

No, what I seem to think is that the boiling point of water is 212 degrees Fahrenheit at normal atmospheric pressure and higher under higher pressure.  Something you've never been able to disprove for the simple reason that it happens to be true.  In any event, an issue which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic currently under discussion, but nice try anyway.

Amianthus

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Re: Oh brother
« Reply #41 on: July 04, 2008, 07:58:37 PM »
That's easy.  He didn't.  He just collected a shitload of data about Hattori, and as I said, one little nugget of fact that wouldn't look like much to the average layman, or even to the average defence attorney, leapt out at him:  Hattori loved to rush up and hug his friends.  Counsel saw the gold beneath the shit, realized what he could make of this, and he did a great job of it, probably coaxing out the "hidden memories" his clients must have had of the kid rushing them both.

And how did he "coax" Hattori's friend into testifying that that is exactly what happened? (ie, he ran at both the wife and later the husband)

No, what I seem to think is that the boiling point of water is 212 degrees Fahrenheit at normal atmospheric pressure and higher under higher pressure.  Something you've never been able to disprove for the simple reason that it happens to be true.  In any event, an issue which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic currently under discussion, but nice try anyway.

Except that your claim is that 190 degree water will boil by simply putting a lid on the cup and taking it off again. You've never been able to show where the extra energy came from - that's the violation of thermodynamics; there was not enough energy in the water and cup to boil the coffee before the lid was put on, but suddenly there is enough energy. Magic, huh? According to your description, the old lady discovered perpetual motion in her coffee cup.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 08:01:04 PM by Amianthus »
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Oh brother
« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2008, 08:20:30 PM »
<<And how did he "coax" Hattori's friend into testifying that that is exactly what happened? (ie, he ran at both the wife and later the husband)>>

I don't know what Hattori's friend actually said, so I can't be sure.  The friend was pretty vulnerable emotionally, HE had led Hattori into that situation, HE was supposed to be Hattori's friend and guide and he guided him right into the next world . . . who knows how the friend, who was obviously anxious to exonerate himself, could have been manipulated by a slick lawyer into blaming the victim, who would never be able to talk back or feel hurt, rather than blaming the gun-nut, who was still alive and kicking.  Who knows what he DID testify to anyway?  You'd need the actual transcript, not a reporter's mediated version.

<<Except that your claim is that 190 degree water will boil by simply putting a lid on the cup and taking it off again. >>

We've been over this before and it's really simple.  While the lid is on the cup, the water vapor is trapped in the cup between the top surface of the liquid contents and the undersurface of the lid.  The trapped vapor exerts pressure probably higher than the ambient atmospheric pressure and an equilibrium is reached where the liquid is no longer boiling because the boiling point has been raised due to the pressure reached by the water vapor inside the cup.  Suddenly the lid is removed and the vapor escapes into the atmosphere, suddenly lowering the pressure on the surface of the contents, either to ambient atmospheric pressure or even to lower values because of a temporary low-pressure area left over the surface of the contents before surrounding air can rush into the area.  But the temperature of the contents is not changed.  Depending on the reduction in pressure on the surface of the contents, the temperature of the contents, previously unable to boil the water due to the air pressure inside the cup, now under reduced pressure may in fact be high enough to boil the contents.

Amianthus

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Re: Oh brother
« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2008, 08:31:40 PM »
I don't know what Hattori's friend actually said, so I can't be sure.  The friend was pretty vulnerable emotionally, HE had led Hattori into that situation, HE was supposed to be Hattori's friend and guide and he guided him right into the next world . . . who knows how the friend, who was obviously anxious to exonerate himself, could have been manipulated by a slick lawyer into blaming the victim, who would never be able to talk back or feel hurt, rather than blaming the gun-nut, who was still alive and kicking.  Who knows what he DID testify to anyway?  You'd need the actual transcript, not a reporter's mediated version.

Feel free. Maybe it's time for you to start providing facts for your assumptions.

We've been over this before and it's really simple.  While the lid is on the cup, the water vapor is trapped in the cup between the top surface of the liquid contents and the undersurface of the lid.  The trapped vapor exerts pressure probably higher than the ambient atmospheric pressure and an equilibrium is reached where the liquid is no longer boiling because the boiling point has been raised due to the pressure reached by the water vapor inside the cup.  Suddenly the lid is removed and the vapor escapes into the atmosphere, suddenly lowering the pressure on the surface of the contents, either to ambient atmospheric pressure or even to lower values because of a temporary low-pressure area left over the surface of the contents before surrounding air can rush into the area.  But the temperature of the contents is not changed.  Depending on the reduction in pressure on the surface of the contents, the temperature of the contents, previously unable to boil the water due to the air pressure inside the cup, now under reduced pressure may in fact be high enough to boil the contents.

The amount of increase to the partial pressure is due to energy loss in the liquid, and is totally proportional to that energy loss. The total energy of the system has not increased. Where is the additional energy coming from to cause the liquid to boil? See, the pressure increases because the liquid COOLS. If it was not enough to cause a boil before, why should it boil NOW THAT IT'S EVEN COOLER?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Oh brother
« Reply #44 on: July 04, 2008, 08:56:16 PM »
<<Feel free. Maybe it's time for you to start providing facts for your assumptions.>>

Really?  And what about YOUR assumptions that Hattori's friend's evidence consistently and straightforwardly backed up the theory of the defence that Hattori had rushed BOTH the shooter and his wife?  Where are your facts?

<<The amount of increase to the partial pressure is due to energy loss in the liquid, and is totally proportional to that energy loss. The total energy of the system has not increased.>>

So what?  The fact remains the liquid is under more pressure in the closed system and under less pressure once the lid is off.

<< Where is the additional energy coming from to cause the liquid to boil? >>

Energy was added to the system when the lid was removed.  It was equivalent to the engergy that could have been added in the form of intensified heating of the cup, raising the temperature to the point where the lid would have blown off.  Once the energy necessary to remove the lid was applied, in this case by muscle power rather than thermal energy, the vapour escaped, leaving a low pressure area behind.

<<See, the pressure increases because the liquid COOLS. If it was not enough to cause a boil before, why should it boil NOW THAT IT'S EVEN COOLER?>>

Boiling results from a combination of two factors, temperature and air pressure.  When the air pressure made a sudden drop due to the escape of the water vapor, we don't know how long it took for the whole body of liquid to cool but if the drop in pressure lowered the boiling point to equal or less than the actual temperature of the liquid at that point in time, then boiling would occur.