DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Richpo64 on December 04, 2007, 03:36:54 PM
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American Islamic Hamas Relief
By Joe Kaufman
FrontPageMagazine.com | 12/4/2007
Last month, this author exposed how the Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA), a group tied to the financing of Hamas, has been ?partnering? with the Federal Emergency Management Association (FEMA), a branch of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), claiming to be providing aid to those affected by Hurricane Katrina and the California wildfires. It has now been learned that another group said to be linked to Hamas, Islamic Relief, also has a working relationship with FEMA. Question: Has our government placed American disaster assistance into the hands of an overseas terrorist group?
Islamic Relief (IR) was founded in Birmingham, England in 1984. Since then, it has opened up offices around the world; hence its UK headquarters designation, Islamic Relief Worldwide (IRW). Today, it has subsidiaries located in over 30 countries, including the United States.
According to the group?s website, IR ?seeks to promote sustainable economic and social development by working with local communities through relief and development programmes.? As noble as that sounds, the group has had a checkered past. In 1999, it was reported that IR had collected and sent over $6 million to Chechen rebels with ties to Al-Qaeda. The same year, IR received $50,000 from Human Concern International (HCI), a ?charity? that the U.S. Department of Treasury described as a ?Bin Laden front.? Shortly after the September 11th attacks, IR, itself, would be investigated by the Treasury Department, as a ?possible source of funding for Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations.?
In May of 2006, Israel labeled IR a Hamas front, after Israeli security services arrested the organization?s Program Manager for Gaza, Ayaz Ali, for providing assistance to the terror group. According to the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs (IMFA): ?[Ali] admitted to being a member of the UK-based Islamic Relief Worldwide (IRW), which is suspected of supporting Hamas... [H]e worked to transfer funds and assistance to various Hamas institutions and organizations, including the Al Wafa and Al Tzalah associations, which have been outlawed in Israel. He also admitted that he worked in Jordan and cooperated with local Hamas operatives.?
The founder and President of IR is Hani Al-Banna, a former trustee of Muslim Aid, a global ?charity? based in London, England. While Al-Banna was associated with MA, the group was a ?partner organization? to the Al-Salah Islamic Association, a Gaza-based entity that the U.S. Treasury Department designated a ?Key Support Node for Hamas,? along with its Director, Ahmed Al-Kurd, who the U.S. government also designated a ?terrorist.? As well, while Al-Banna was involved with MA, the group was a partner to organizations directly related to the Muslim Brotherhood of Pakistan, Jamaat-e-Islami (JI), including the Al-Khidmat Hospital based in Karachi.
Despite the group?s storied connections to entities found on the U.S. State Department?s list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTOs), IR has been allowed to operate within the United States.
Islamic Relief USA (IR-USA) is located in Buena Park, California, though it has regional offices based in Totowa, New Jersey, Washington, D.C. and Plano, Texas. The corporate address of IR-USA is in Burbank, California. It was incorporated in October of 1993, and the Registered Agent for the incorporation is listed as Kazbek Soobzokov, the former attorney for terror operative Wagdy Ghoneim. Ghoneim, who has just last year called for violence against Jews, was deported from the United States and refused entry into Canada after it was discovered that he was a member of Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood.
Not only is IR permitted to operate inside the United States, but the U.S. government is actually involved with the organization.
IR-USA has devoted an entire page on its website to discussing its dealings with Hurricane Katrina, the natural disaster that ravaged large parts of numerous states throughout the South. Under the header ?Louisiana,? it is written, ?Islamic Relief is working closely with the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) (our team has secured a desk at their headquarters in Baton Rouge), and now has access to all of its resources, including use of their inter-agency warehouse.?
In IR-USA?s 2006 ?Special Edition? newsletter commemorating the 43rd Annual Convention of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) ? an umbrella organization for mosques that was named by the U.S. government an ?Unindicted Co-conspirator? for the 2007 Holy Land Foundation (HLF) trial dealing with millions of dollars in Hamas fundraising ? IR refers to FEMA as a ?partner.? The newsletter states: ?Working with partners such as the Second Harvest Food Bank and FEMA?s Voluntary Agency Warehouse, Islamic Relief has distributed essential goods such as food supplies, water, and other household items to hurricane victims.?
For its efforts, IR-USA has gained the praise of such noteworthy political figures as Senator Ted Kennedy and Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour, but by overlooking IR?s extremism, FEMA and the politicians are playing a dangerous game with the American public. And not only are these relationships problematic, but the ?partnerships? that IR has with other militant Islamist groups has made the problem that much worse.
In September of 2005, in response to Hurricane Katrina, a coalition of major Islamist groups formed the Muslim Hurricane Relief Task Force (MHRTF). In addition to IR, the task force involved, amongst others, CAIR, which was created by Hamas; ICNA, which was involved in Hamas financing; and KindHearts, which was shut down for being a Hamas front.
The North American Islamic Trust (NAIT) controls the finances of hundreds of mosques throughout the United States and Canada, including some of the most radical Muslim institutions. NAIT, like its sister organization ISNA, was named as an ?Unindicted Co-conspirator? for the HLF trial that began this past July. At the same time NAIT was designated as such, the organization had on its website the following: ?At the end of August 2005, NAIT organized a project aimed at restoration of Katrina-affected Islamic centers & schools in Louisiana and Mississippi... Islamic Relief USA joined NAIT in providing financial assistance to the affected centers.?
The above information is still found on NAIT?s site, which further states, ?As of fall 2006, NAIT has conveyed formal approval of four grants for a total of $175,000 for the repair of three masajid [mosques] and one Islamic school.? Question: Where did these grants come from? Our government?
On October 11, 2001, New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani refused a check for $10 million from Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal that bin Talal had handed him for ?disaster relief,? following the 9/11 attacks. The reason given for the refusal was that bin Talal had appended to the money statements that attempted to equate terrorists, such as the ones that attacked us, with how the Israeli government fights terrorism. Essentially the check came with a price that was completely unacceptable.
What price is our government paying for allowing Islamic Relief, a Muslim extremist group, to get involved as a ?partner? to the government, when it comes to natural disasters, be it Katrina, California wildfires or anything else? And what price are we as Americans going to pay in the end? The American public must demand answers from FEMA, because it is obvious that FEMA, a division of Homeland Security, will not seek them on its own.
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Joe Kaufman is the Chairman of Americans Against Hate, the founder of CAIR Watch, and the spokesman for Terror-Free Oil Initiative.
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<<Joe Kaufman [author of the article] is the Chairman of Americans Against Hate, the founder of CAIR Watch, and the spokesman for Terror-Free Oil Initiative.>>
In plain English, Joe Kaufman is a Zio-Nazi agent promoting a Zio-Nazi agenda.
If you read his "proof" of terrorist support, they are all nebulous: "confessed in Israel" [where torture is legal] to being a member of_____, which is suspected of supporting ____________," - - or - - "the charity's registered agent was also the attorney for a "terror operative" [whatever that may be] - - as if an attorney is guilty of all the crimes of his clients and moreover, once he has represented one criminal, all his other clients become criminals as well.
Joe Kaufman, like all Zio-Nazis, is in the business of generating and spreading hate; hate against all Muslims. Like all Zio-Nazis, he is determined to prevent any deviation from the unconditional support that the Zio-Nazi state enjoys in the U.S. Congress and the White House in its oppression of the Palestinians. Reflexive hatred of all Muslims is seen as the best way of maintaining that support. Regardless of how much it costs the U.S.A. in its relations with the Arab and Muslim world.
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>>In plain English, Joe Kaufman is a Zio-Nazi agent promoting a Zio-Nazi agenda.<<
Attacking the messanger ... how original.
Perhaps you could use the word Nazi a few more times ... :D
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<<Attacking the messanger ... how original.>>
I think when a person hides behind such all-American names as "Americans Against Hate," it's useful to know who he is really representing - - it is not Americans but Zio-Nazis whose interests are being served by his hate-mongering organizations.
<<Perhaps you could use the word Nazi a few more times ... >>
You mean for purveyors of racial and religious hatred? For the servants of a fascist, apartheid state? For the agents of a state which has legalized torture? For the defenders of an army which has conducted a 40-year military occupation of a civilian population in the face of UN demands to cease and desist? Hey, if the shoe fits . . .
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In this case, the shoe fits ANY and ALL who don't fit Tee's predisposed mindest of how evil AmeriKKKa is, how evil Bush is, how evil our military is, and how racist the south is.
What's the most pathetic is in the perseveration of the accusatory hyperbole (nazi, fascist, war criminal, etc.) by Tee and the the rabid left works to diminish their significance, and render real nazis, real racists, and real war criminals with far less substance and seriousness. Working to literally make the terms immune to when they'd really "fit"
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<<In this case, the shoe fits ANY and ALL who don't fit Tee's predisposed mindest of how evil AmeriKKKa is, how evil Bush is, how evil our military is, and how racist the south is.>>
Nice try, sirs, but I think we have enough on our plate dealing with the subject at hand. In response to Rich's objection to my use of the word "Zio-Nazi," I detailed several very specific Nazi-like actions and/or proclivities of the Zionist regime. Rather than debate the aptness of "Nazi" to describe those Israeli actions, your inadequacy again leads you to launch instead an ad hominem attack in which you absurdly claim - - without a shred of evidence, of course - - that I attack as "Nazis" "anyone" who "doesn't fit my predisposed mindset" of how evil Amerikkka and/or Bush are, etc.
<<What's the most pathetic is in the perseveration of the accusatory hyperbole (nazi, fascist, war criminal, etc.) by Tee and the the rabid left works to diminish their significance, and render real nazis, real racists, and real war criminals with far less substance and seriousness. >>
No what's really pathetic is how some small minority of Jews, despite the Jews' having been the world's no. 1 victims of militarism, fascism and racism, eagerly embrace all three when employed in what they perceive to the the best interests of the Jewish people. Thank God they are a tiny minority, and most Jews remain staunchly liberal and left of centre.
<<Working to literally make the terms immune to when they'd really "fit">>
Immune in whose eyes? Yours? Yours don't count. Most people know Nazism when they see it, and the fact that there are bigger Nazis than Bush and his crew ever were does NOT get Bush & Co. off the hook. A Nazi is a Nazi is a Nazi.
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<<What's the most pathetic is in the perseveration of the accusatory hyperbole (nazi, fascist, war criminal, etc.) by Tee and the the rabid left works to diminish their significance, and render real nazis, real racists, and real war criminals with far less substance and seriousness....Working to literally make the terms immune to when they'd really "fit">>
Immune in whose eyes? Yours?
Nope, Reality's. A concept that is truely foreign to the likes of the foaming-at-the-mouth left, that you could easily be the spokesperson for
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Immune in whose eyes? Yours?
<<Nope, Reality's>>
ROTFLMFAO. Reality's, eh? Like YOU would ever know.
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Oh the irony :D
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LOL
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Immune in whose eyes? Yours? Yours don't count. Most people know Nazism when they see it, and the fact that there are bigger Nazis than Bush and his crew ever were does NOT get Bush & Co. off the hook. A Nazi is a Nazi is a Nazi.
How do you feel about the term Islamo-Natzi?
Do you think that use of hyperbole weakens the impact of words?
Nobody should want to wear the albatross that the real Natzis earned , but if everyone is wearing it becoms a rather small bird.
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<<How do you feel about the term Islamo-Natzi?>>
Jewish-Zionist propaganda term, but bad propaganda because it's so obviously shoddy and inappropriate that it indicates desperation on the part of the people who use it.
<<Do you think that use of hyperbole weakens the impact of words?>>
Depends to some extent on the individual listener. In lots of cases, it can help put over a point that otherwise wouldn't be grasped.
<<Nobody should want to wear the albatross that the real Natzis earned , but if everyone is wearing it becoms a rather small bird.>>
I don't think it's a small bird when Palestinians are blown to bits, forced off their lands into poverty, held up at checkpoints while trying to get to the hospital to give birth, robbed of their livelihood, tortured in prisons, executed without trial, walled off like Jews in a Nazi ghetto, and bulldozed or shot to death in their own homes. If the albatross fits . . .
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>>I don't think it's a small bird when Palestinians are blown to bits, forced off their lands into poverty, held up at checkpoints while trying to get to the hospital to give birth, robbed of their livelihood, tortured in prisons, executed without trial, walled off like Jews in a Nazi ghetto, and bulldozed or shot to death in their own homes. If the albatross fits . . . <<
Brought to you by the Canadian wing of Hamas. Proud to produce the new improved children's suicide belt! Muhammed says, "30 percent more Jewish women and children killed per mission!"
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<<Proud to produce the new improved children's suicide belt! Muhammed says, "30 percent more Jewish women and children killed per mission!">>
If you resent Jewish women and children being killed by suicide bombers, I have a small suggestion for you - - try to stop the much greater slaughter of Arab women and children by the Jews, try to stop settling their land in addition to killing their women and children, and try to end the 40-year-old occupation of the West Bank to protect 270,000 recently-arrived Jewish settlers from the three million Arab inhabitants.
Then maybe you won't have to deal with suicide bombers - - or Qassem rockets - - ever again.
Not that you'll make any effort to stop ANY of your Zio-Nazi shit. Your greed for land is too big to let the small stuff get in the way. And if you can sucker Amerikkkans into fighting and dying for you, so much the better. But here's my take on it: as long as you continue the Occupation, so long will your victims and their families keep up and redouble their attacks.
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"...much greater slaughter of Arab women and children by the Jews,..."
Oh?
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http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/nyt-report.html
plane seemed a little quizzical about the true levels of slaughter of civilians in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, so I thought it might be beneficial, in view of the lies and race-hatred being spilled out in this forum (certainly not by plane, I hasten to add!) to take a look at some basic truths, the ones the Zio-Nazis are trying so hard to keep from the American people.
It's really a shame that the American people aren't aware of this realistic but disturbing image of their tax dollars at work. The MSM do an excellent job of hiding it, as do "their" politicians on "both sides" of the aisle, thanks to AIPAC and many, many other multi-billion dollar lobbyists for the Zio-Nazi cause. For those who are sincerely interested in the real answer to your "President's" phony question, "Why do they hate us?" here is a much better answer than the ludicrous "They hate us for our freedoms," as if some Arab in the streets of Cairo or Baghdad gives a shit that you are holding an Iowa primary.
The real cost to the American people, in blood and treasure, of their unconditional support of the Zionist oppression of the Palestinian people and their racial/ethnic cleansing of the West Bank, is absolutely staggering, as are the huge efforts being made as we speak to keep those costs from the eyes of the public.
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For those of you who don't belong to Hamas, you should know that these terrorists are liars. They lie about those who die, and they lie about who killed them. They even kill children of their own in an attempt to paint Israel as murderers of children when it is they who not only kill their own children, but put them in harms way as human shields.
Only twisted monsters do such things. Only twisted monsters believe them.
http://masada2000.org/al-dura.html (http://masada2000.org/al-dura.html)
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In a somewhat predictable response to the published facts of who kills the most civilians (by a landslide!) in the Arab-Israeli conflict, the lying, duplicitous agents of Zio-Nazi aggression have been driven to desperation. "It's a lie!" they shriek. "Terrorists are liars!!"
Well, we've seen how the Zio-Nazis lie, distort the truth, and attempt to pull the wool over the eyes of the American people with half-truths and distortions. Let's see who "these terrorists" are, that Rich is calling liars. The stats that I posted on the horrific Israeli slaughter of Palestinian women and children are cold, hard FACTS which, to say the least, are extremely inconvenient to Rich and the Zionist murderers he and Zio-Nazis like him are attempting to shield. Who compiles these facts? What "terrorist" "liar" makes this shit up?
Well, the facts on the Israeli murder machine were published by If America Knew, an organization of AMERICANS determined to fight off the stranglehold that Israeli has locked on the U.S. legislature through the unstinting "generosity" of AIPAC and other lavishly funded billion-dollar "think tanks" and lobbying organizations dedicated to one goal and one goal only - - the continuing existence of Israel and its relentless expansion over Arab lands and bodies throughout the Middle East. At whatever cost to America and Americans, who apparently can be endlessly suckered into these projects with the help of the "bipartisan" legislators who AIPAC and the other lavishly-funded organs of the Zionist state have bought off into submission.
Who are the "terrorists" and "liars" that make up If America Knew, the "twisted monsters" that publish the facts that throw Zio-Nazi BS artists like Rich into screaming fits of deperation? Here is their Board of Directors:
Board members
* James Akins
* Eugene K. Bird
* Francis Boyle
* Paul Findley
* Andrew Killgore
* Pete McCloskey
* Donald Neff
* Edward Peck
* Alison Weir
You can Google any and all of them, or go straight to the Wikipedia article on If America Knew and link directly from their names. Not a "twisted monster" in the bunch. Not a "terrorist," not a "liar." Just straightforward pissed-off honest Americans mad as hell at the hijacking of their country's foreign policy by a bunch of very "special" special interests.
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Isn't amazing how Mike takes the word of people who sacrifice their own women and children to further their vicious bloodlust over a group of people who simply want to live in peace? It's truly amazing. Given these people claim to do these monstrous things in the name of their perverted concept of god, you would think a communist like Mike would instantly be against them. But no.
People often wonder why seemingly thoughtful people gravitate to and support such blood thirsty killers. I've read some explanations which center on the liberal/socialist tendency to gravitate to the "Palestinian" cause because they have this twisted affinity toward minorities. They see the Israeli/"Palestinian conflict in these terms; the "Palestin as are an oppressed minority and Israel is the big bad majority. It doesn't matter to them that the minority is a brutal theocracy bent on committing total genocide of the Israeli people, they are locked onto the "oppressed minority" template and simply cannot see past it. Nothing the majority does is justified to these people because simply being the majority makes them wrong.
This is why people like Mike believe more Alsatians have been killed than Israelis, and all the Palestinans (the minority) are innocent littel cherubs who were simply victims of Israel's (the majority) brutal war of oppression. The reality is that these Palestinians are monsters who will committ the most vicious acts of barberism to worship their "god" and will say anything to fool people like Mike into continuing to hold onto his template.
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Given that in 2004 22 times more Palestinian children were killed than Israeli children, this category holds particular importance. We could find no basis on which to justify this inequality in coverage.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/nyt-report.html
I am not surprised , and I could help this group understand part of the reson.
It is easyer to get around in Isreal than in Palistine , many more Isrelis speak English , German , French , Italian , than Palestinians do, and most of all the Palestinians can't make a reporter comfortable and safe .
The Isreali government knows the value of these reports and does what it can to insure that no positive pertanant fact gets overlooked reporters get frount row seats and VIP treatment if they are anything like freindly .
Palistinians seem to treat reporters with a lot of suspicion , I would If I were amoung them , it would be pretty easy for a Mossad Agent to imitate an American or Italian reporter and it woudl be fatal to give such a person a guided tour of resistance headquarters, but this suspicion is not only protective of Palestinian secrets , it is also protective of Isreali monopoly on reporters eyes.
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>>...and most of all the Palestinians can't make a reporter comfortable and safe .<<
Actually the fact is that unless you have a Palestinian guide to take you to were the fighting is, you don't get there. There are many sources on this and I've read several books by journalists who have been there who will tell you this. Since most of the American media is leftist and is guided by the template of Israeli oppression they don't want to hear what the Israelis have to say. They believe the Israeli Government is lying simply because it is the government. Just like they do here. So in order to get their story, they go with the terrorists. Once they're with the terrorists they can't be critical or they could lose access, or even their lives. There are plenty of reported incidents where reporters have been locked up by Palestinians and beaten for writing critical stories. So this leads to twisted stories that are nothing more that Palestinian propaganda. Remember CNN in Iraq? CNN admitted to squashing stories to gain access and secure their lives. It's the same in Israel.
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This is why people like Mike believe more Alsatians have been killed than Israelis, and all the Palestinans (the minority) are innocent littel cherubs who were simply victims of Israel's (the majority) brutal war of oppression. The reality is that these Palestinians are monsters who will committ the most vicious acts of barberism to worship their "god" and will say anything to fool people like Mike into continuing to hold onto his template.
I don't doubt that the Indefadath has scored worse for the Palestinians than for the Isrelis.
The Palistinians are poorer and not as well armed , this would seem like good reasons to expect greater casualtys on the Palestinian side every time there is any sort of conflict between them.
Children get caught in the crossfire any way and there is no way the Isrelis can fight the Palestinians fighters on a feild far from their children , this kind of oppurtunity is not given.
The children of the stronger side are sometimes the only thing that the weaker side can reach .
In this situation I have to call the Palestins who like the idea of Indefadath foolish , they are not winning it .
ON the contrary they are finding the Indefaddath is an excuse for the Isrelis to fense them in with walls that resemble the one that once ringed West Berlin , on the plus side this wall is reduceing the number of children killed on both sides , on the negative side it makes the Holy land resemble Alkatraz.
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>>...and most of all the Palestinians can't make a reporter comfortable and safe .<<
Actually the fact is that unless you have a Palestinian guide to take you to were the fighting is, you don't get there. There are many sources on this and I've read several books by journalists who have been there who will tell you this. Since most of the American media is leftist and is guided by the template of Israeli oppression they don't want to hear what the Israelis have to say. They believe the Israeli Government is lying simply because it is the government. Just like they do here. So in order to get their story, they go with the terrorists. Once they're with the terrorists they can't be critical or they could lose access, or even their lives. There are plenty of reported incidents where reporters have been locked up by Palestinians and beaten for writing critical stories. So this leads to twisted stories that are nothing more that Palestinian propaganda. Remember CNN in Iraq? CNN admitted to squashing stories to gain access and secure their lives. It's the same in Israel.
Those are good points.
Isreal can expell a reporter that is too irritateing also.
We should be aware of these distortions and understand that our understanding of the situation suffers from these attempts to manipulate our understanding.
Each of us has to read criticly and apply correction factors to make up for what we know is skewed reporting.
This is one of the resons that we can't take these problems as our own , we haven't the means to see them clearly.
Thinking about this makes me want to pray for them , it isn't wrong to pray that your enemy become wise , his improved wisdom might make him easyer to deal with.
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<<Isn't amazing how Mike takes the word of people who sacrifice their own women and children to further their vicious bloodlust . . . >>
Holy shit! So * James Akins * Eugene K. Bird * Francis Boyle * Paul Findley * Andrew Killgore * Pete McCloskey * Donald Neff
* Edward Peck and * Alison Weir sacrificed their own women and children to further their vicious bloodlust. I never suspected. How many "women and children" did that bitch Alison Weir have to sacrifice anyway? Did she keep any for herself?
Rich, you're getting crazier by the minute. If America Knew is actually a lot more reputable than any of the Zio-Nazi sites you love to quote from, and quite credible. But hey, it's a free country. You don't HAVE to believe them. And I know you never will. Your problem is that you have to convince American people who DON'T have an axe to grind in the Middle East not to believe them. And that's a struggle you're losing ground in every day.
<< . . . over a group of people who simply want to live in peace?>>
Yeah on land occupied by others who were there before them and don't like to see their homes and orchards bulldozed to make room for them.
<< It's truly amazing. Given these people claim to do these monstrous things in the name of their perverted concept of god, you would think a communist like Mike would instantly be against them. But no.>>
Why? People who believe in God aren't wrong about everything. These particular believers have a pretty good idea who forced them off their land and into refugee camps, who shelled their homes and killed their children and whose army is pushing them around on their own land at roadside checkpoints. Believing in God didn't turn them into total idiots.
<<People often wonder why seemingly thoughtful people gravitate to and support such blood thirsty killers. I've read some explanations which center on the liberal/socialist tendency to gravitate to the "Palestinian" cause because they have this twisted affinity toward minorities. They see the Israeli/"Palestinian conflict in these terms; the "Palestin as are an oppressed minority and Israel is the big bad majority. It doesn't matter to them that the minority is a brutal theocracy bent on committing total genocide of the Israeli people, they are locked onto the "oppressed minority" template and simply cannot see past it. Nothing the majority does is justified to these people because simply being the majority makes them wrong.>>
Gee, Rich, thanks for explaining why I sympathize with the Palestinians. I always thought it was because the Jews are usurpers who pushed them off their land, are settling it as fast as they can, killed their women and children, destroyed their property and their livelihoods, refused to grant them basic human rights, walled them off like animals in a pen and legalized torture and murder as legitimate tools against any resistance they might put up. But your reasons are much better. I guess.
<<This is why people like Mike believe more Alsatians [?????] have been killed than Israelis, and all the Palestinans (the minority) are innocent littel cherubs who were simply victims of Israel's (the majority) brutal war of oppression. >>
Little reality check here would be in order. Who's occupying the West Bank and who's living under the gun? Whose women and children are being killed in far greater numbers and whose in far lesser numbers?
<<The reality is that these Palestinians are monsters who will committ the most vicious acts of barberism to worship their "god" and will say anything to fool people like Mike into continuing to hold onto his template.>>
The reality is that YOU are a fucking racist pig who like Hitler before you can demonize an entire people to serve your dreams of conquest and domination AND the Palestinians are people like anyone else - - people that have been pushed beyond the brink by intolerable and unconscionable Jewish rapacity and inhumanity and have reacted with rage and desperation instead of rolling over and letting the bad guys win.
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>> ... the Isrelis to fense them in with walls that resemble the one that once ringed West Berlin.<<
The Israelis aren't fencing anyone in. They are protecting their children by fencing the monsters out. The comparison to the Berlin wall is completely invalid, and frankly I find it obscene.
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>>The reality is that YOU are a fucking racist pig who like Hitler ... <<
*yawn
Mike is one of those people who are robotic lemmings marching in lockstep with a group of people who actually admire Hitler and seek to finish what he started.
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<<The Israelis aren't fencing anyone in. They are protecting their children by fencing the monsters out. The comparison to the Berlin wall is completely invalid, and frankly I find it obscene.>>
The comparison to the Berlin Wall is nonsense. Most people think of the Warsaw Ghetto Wall.
<<Mike is one of those people . . . who actually admire Hitler and seek to finish what he started.>>
If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, it's pretty easy to see who actually admires Hitler in this conflict. The methods the Jews are adopting (torture, extra-judicial execution, ghetto walls, communal punishment, etc.) are straight from the Hitler playbook, as is the open contempt for the UN.
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When you see someone comparing Jews to Nazis during the holocaust you know they're delusional.
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<<When you see someone comparing Jews to Nazis during the holocaust you know they're delusional.>>
When you see someone with no credible answer to valid accusations (torture, extrajudicial murder, land-grabbing, ghetto walling, etc.) you know he's gonna reach for the word "delusional" as the only answer. The desperation is palpable.
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<chuckle>
Hold on tight to your delusions Mike. They're all you've got.
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No, the wall includes sections made of concrete slabs and guardtowers , it has a phisical resemblance to the Berln wall.
It is also starting to collect some colorfull gafitti.
It is diffrent in purpose , simular in appearance.
The wall has caused a reduction in the number of children killed on both sides so it really needs to be there , too bad it is so needed , cause it is pretty ugly.
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<<When you see someone comparing Jews to Nazis during the holocaust you know they're delusional.>>
When you see someone with no credible answer to valid accusations (torture, extrajudicial murder, land-grabbing, ghetto walling, etc.) you know he's gonna reach for the word "delusional" as the only answer. The desperation is palpable.
MT, I must admit I have gotten tired of this tit-for-tat between primarily you and Rich as it just goes round and round,but...
unless I am mistaken, you are Jewish. If that is true, why the viciousness of your statements regarding Jews in Israel?
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<<unless I am mistaken, you are Jewish. If that is true, why the viciousness of your statements regarding Jews in Israel?>>
Good question, Professor. Because they make all the rest of us look bad. Because they personify every anti-Semitic stereotype that was ever invented - - greed, selfishness, lack of concern for anyone else who's not in their own little tribe, contempt for the "outsider" and complete disregard of any human life except their own. Most Jews are liberals, concerned for the underdog, because the Jews always WERE the underdog, knowing that the fate of every human being is really tied up with every other's - - if it's bad for him, in the long run it can't be good for me, etc. And these ass-holes don't give a shit for anyone else but themselves. Guys like Rich (believe me, he's a Jew, he just won't admit it) and his ass-hole buddies are creating enemies for me and my grandchildren that a hundred years won't wipe away. In the end, the American people are going to realize that they've been played for suckers and there will be an enormous backlash. I won't have to deal with it, but my grandchildren will.
The Jewish religion teaches us to be kind to everyone, to respect your fellow man (and woman, but the traditional religion, I gotta admit, sorta emphasizes the male role in these things, women are getting a better shake in the more modern versions like Reform Judaism,) NOT to put a man out of his home,not to despoil, not to humiliate. etc. (Rich and his supporters actually glory in despoiling, killing, humiliating their enemies.) Those are the real teachings - - the Old Testament shows a lot of examples of bad conduct, but these are against people who are sworn enemies of the Jews, idol-worshipers (which in those days usually meant human sacrificers, baby sacrificers, etc.) and some really bad people, not innocent farmers and town dwellers being kicked out of their homes. Anyway you can't really use the "Gideon slew the Midianites" argument as a realistic way of approaching real-life problems in the 20th and 21st Centuries, but that's exactly what these guys do.
The most religious Jews, the Neturei Karta and the Satmar Hasids, don't even recognize the State of Israel because it's not supposed to be established before the coming of the Messiah, and they have plenty to say about the atrocious conduct of the IDF and the Israeli government - - they call them "Jewish gentiles," meaning they've abandoned the religion and are just as godless and inhumane as the rest of the world.
I don't think the State of Israel has the right to speak for me, but in the eyes of the world it does. I and my family will be held responsible in the eyes of hundreds of millions of people for the crimes of the Israeli state. That's not fair, it's not even realistic thinking, but to millions of people, my grandchildren's name will be blackened by what is being done today in Israel and the West Bank. I do what I can to stop it, but it's not very much, unfortunately. Nobody pays attention to cranks typing in a newsgroup. But like they used to say in Amnesty, Better to light a single candle than to curse the blackness. It was always our hope that somewhere another candle would flare up, then another, in a slow-motion chain reaction. Sort of like the anti-war movement of the 1960s. Evenutally, from a tiny handful of tiny candles, a mass movement came into being. No matter what the result, at least I'll be able to say, OK, I lit a candle.