With a Single Voice

[richpo64]

>>Israel is such a major deal in Alaska. Nearly all Alaskans are Zionists.<<

That's interesting. I wonder how you know that.

Nearly all huh?

 

[Xavier_Onassis]

>>Israel is such a major deal in Alaska. Nearly all Alaskans are Zionists.<<

That's interesting. I wonder how you know that.

Nearly all huh?

It is a joke. Alaska has a smaller number of Jews than any other state, and they are a very minor influence. Alaskans are by and large more interested in Samoa than Israel.

But they have stuffed this poor woman fuller of Zionist crap than a Channuka turkey, and she's eating it up. Tickle Me Elmo has given speeches that were more personal to his beliefs.

[richpo64]

>>But they have stuffed this poor woman fuller of Zionist crap than a Channuka turkey, and she's eating it up. Tickle Me Elmo has given speeches that were more personal to his beliefs.<<

Who stuffed you full of terrorist crap?

[Xavier_Onassis]

Sports hunting violates the mitzvot against cruel treatment of animals (tzaar baali chayim). If hunting is the only alternative to dying oneself, then it is permitted.

A hunted animal is not kosher (trayf) because it was not killed in the strictly humane way that Jewish Law mandates. If the home doesn't follow the laws of kashrut, then this argument against hunting is harder to make. Best Wishes,

Rabbi Barry Dov Lerner

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I am sure that that is Rabbi Lerner's opinion, but hunting which was once done with spears, arrows and traps, which were probably more cruel. But I fail to see how a gunshot to the head or heart is more humane than slitting the animal's throat. I think I would opt for the gun, were I a moose.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Who stuffed you full of terrorist crap?
=========================================
I am opposed to all terrorism. But I think Zionism is a rather nasty form of racism that has provoked a desperate people, after decades, to terrorism. 

Zionism is to terrorism as smoking is to lung cancer.

I am against all three.

[Amianthus]

Zionism is to terrorism as smoking is to lung cancer.

I am against all three.

So, which of the four do you think is peachy keen?

[richpo64]

>>I am opposed to all terrorism. But I think Zionism is a rather nasty form of racism that has provoked a desperate people, after decades, to terrorism. <<

So you're full of provoked terrorism.

Gotcha.

[Michael Tee]

<<A hunted animal is not kosher (trayf) because it was not killed in the strictly humane way that Jewish Law mandates.   Rabbi Barry Dov Lerner>>

This guy is ridiculous.  First of all because he gives his own opinion and cites no Talmudic or other source of authority.  Second, because he doesn't know WTF he is talking about - - a deer killed in the wild with a single shot suffers far less than a cow, after a lifetime spent in a factory farm, hoisted vertically into a heads-down position by a chain on its back ankle and killed by slitting its throat.   Third because he doesn't even mention hoof types, which is the key distinction made in the Bible between treif and kosher.

[Amianthus]

This guy is ridiculous.  First of all because he gives his own opinion and cites no Talmudic or other source of authority.  Second, because he doesn't know WTF he is talking about - - a deer killed in the wild with a single shot suffers far less than a cow, after a lifetime spent in a factory farm, hoisted vertically into a heads-down position by a chain on its back ankle and killed by slitting its throat.   Third because he doesn't even mention hoof types, which is the key distinction made in the Bible between treif and kosher.

I've got other sources that cite Talmud. Regardless, he didn't mention hoof types, because the question was about hunting. If you'd like more references that go into more detail, I'd be happy to provide them.

Basically, the prohibition against hunting is that you cannot guarantee a single shot kill (though that is the goal of most hunters) while slitting the throat is a guaranteed kill. Many hunters will tell you that they have had game that they hit and it got away, only to die of it's wounds much later, or that took two or three hits to kill.

[Michael Tee]

Some hunters don't get the first shot kill.  Some slaughterhouse workers break or dislocate the leg when the animal is hoisted.  What is the likelihood of a game animal that escapes the hunter dying from an attack by carnivorous predators?  That can't be fun either - - but at least they lived their whole life free in the wild, not like a domestic animal slaughtered for meat.  Some of those factory-farmed lives are just misery-filled from start to finish.

[Amianthus]

Here's a couple other sources...

Meat that is to be eaten must be slaughtered in a particular way (Deuteronomy 12:20 states that slaughter method will be taught to us, and the Oral Law supplies the method). A special prayer is recited before the act. The animal must be slaughtered in a way so that they feel little pain. A razor sharp knife with no nicks is used to cut the esophagus, the trachia, the caratoid arteries, and jugular vein in one cut. The animal is then raised so that the blood flows free. The blood then is covered with dirt (as a show of respect as in the Temple sacrifice). Failure to do any of these renders the animal unfit to eat. Because of the complexity of kosher slaughter a specially trained person (shochet) usually does the ritual.

Hunting animals is thus forbidden by Jewish law. Since the animal is not killed ritually, it is unkosher, and it is considered cruel to kill an animal just for sport.

http://www.chelm.org/jewish/kashrut/l2.slaughter.html

"Do not eat any abomination... You may thus eat every animal that has a true hoof that is cloven into two parts, and which brings up its cud... There are some [animals] that you may not eat. These include the camel, hyrax and hare. . . Also included is the pig. . . Do not eat the flesh of these [animals] and do not touch their carcasses." (Deuteronomy 14)

Only animals that have both cloven hooves and chew their cud are permissible. By this rule, sheep, cattle, goats, and deer are allowed. [note: moose is a type of deer] Animals including the pig and hare are not allowed, nor are products that derive from them. So far, this is not too tough.

...

Animals must be slaughtered in accordance with Jewish ritual by a shohet (kosher slaugterer) with a precise understanding of the complex laws governing shehitah (slaughtering) in order to qualify as kosher. The kill must be made by slicing across the esophagus and jugular with a perfectly smooth blade in order to cause instant death without pain to the animal. For this reason, animals killed by hunting are not acceptable. Thus, while a deer may be kosher if raised on a farm, it is not permissable to eat a deer that has been killed while hunting.

http://www99.epinions.com/content_3008405636

[Michael Tee]

I knew it had something to do with the hoof.

<<The Book of Leviticus states:
<<“    Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.>>

I got this by Googling "kosher meat hoof Leviticus" and out of the first page of hits, going to the first Wikipedia article mentioned on the hit list.

So now it's up to all you moose-hunters out there to let us know if the moose has a cloven hoof or not.  Then I guess if it's got the right kind of hoof, it's kosher if you kill it in a slaughterhouse by slitting its throat in a certain way (with certain prayers I believe) so as to minimize its suffering, and I think the blood also has to be removed in a certain way (maybe by salting??) but NOT kosher if it was taken by a hunter.

The Wikipedia article had lists of kosher and non-kosher meats, but I didn't see "moose" on it.  I know mice and ospreys are definitely off the list. 

[Amianthus]

Moose is a type of deer.

Deer are kosher if slaughtered properly.

Hunting is not proper slaughtering, so the meat is no longer kosher.

I went through this already.

[Amianthus]

So now it's up to all you moose-hunters out there to let us know if the moose has a cloven hoof or not.&nbsp; Then I guess if it's got the right kind of hoof, it's kosher if you kill it in a slaughterhouse by slitting its throat in a certain way (with certain prayers I believe) so as to minimize its suffering, and I think the blood also has to be removed in a certain way (maybe by salting??) but NOT kosher if it was taken by a hunter.

The blood must be salted and broiled ("kashered"). Also, numerous nerves and fatty tissues have to be removed in a particular way, and the lungs must be examined for any adhesions ("sirchot").

Here's a picture of moose hooves.

[Amianthus]

Don't know which Wiki article you read (you didn't post the link to it), but if it was this article, then clicking on the "deer" link will take you to another article that includes the moose and elk as part of that family.