DebateGate

General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Universe Prince on June 16, 2008, 10:58:47 PM

Title: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: Universe Prince on June 16, 2008, 10:58:47 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7456588.stm
      The Swedish study, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences journal, compared the size of the brain's halves in 90 adults.

Gay men and straight women had halves of a similar size, while the right side was bigger in lesbian women and straight men.

[...]

When these results were collected, it was found that lesbian women and straight men shared a particular "asymmetry" in their hemisphere size, while straight women and gay men had no difference between the size of the different halves of their brain.

In other words, structurally, at least, gay men were more like straight women, and gay women more like straight men.
      
Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: Plane on June 17, 2008, 12:01:04 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7456588.stm


How does this co-relate with studys of IQ and sex diffrences?
Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: sirs on June 17, 2008, 12:11:54 AM
In other words, structurally, at least, gay men were more like straight women, and gay women more like straight men

More accurately, geometrically.  Until science can diagram the path of all nerves, and what each neuron's specific function is, "structurally" doesn't quite cut it. 

In other words you can have 2 identical homes, size wise from the outside, same square footage and all.  Doesn't make how they're designed inside identical, or even similar.
Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: Cynthia on June 17, 2008, 02:38:26 AM
In other words, structurally, at least, gay men were more like straight women, and gay women more like straight men

More accurately, geometrically.  Until scence can diagram the path of all nerves, and what each neuron's specific function, "structurally" doesn't quite cut it. 

In other words you can have 2 identical homes, size wise from the outside, same square footage and all.  Doesn't make how their designed inside identical, or even similar.


Sirs,
I used to think that being "gay" was all in the "mind", until I witnessed a student in my class this year. This boy was so very feminine at only 8 years of age. He loved *everything pink and girly*.His voice tone was higher pitched and clearly  he was femine in nature (and btw, proud of it) I was supportive of his self esteem, as well. btw.

Last year I had another student who was also very feminie in his behavior-----sewing Barbie clothes for his girl 'friends' etc...

I have to say that I have witnessed first hand the very brain that has been "studied" here.

There just has to be something to this chemical, biological genetic element that is brain ...when it comes to whether a child leans in one direction or the other.

It is no longer an issue of Religion or Right.

And I, for one, do not support same sex issues.

I have to question the whole idea of the "study" of gender based genes.

There is something to the brain that we are not privy to, and only when you have witnessed first hand a child's prefernce to be either, will you truly see the biological points within.

Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: sirs on June 17, 2008, 03:31:51 AM
I have witnessed it Cynthia, so I have the objecivity to assess for myself, and given my predisposition towards my walk with God, and the acute lack of any scientific proof to the contrary, I'm airing on the side of caution....that of my spiritual being, when I'm no longer a living entity of the materailistic world we live in currently.  And my God has made it clear to me what's right, what's wrong, what's sin and what isn't.

Doesn't mean I don't tolerate such a choice.  But it also means I'm not obliged in any way to support it as "normal" or perfectly acceptable lifestyle.  Why do some people chose to pierce nearly every orafice they have?  Why do some people choose to tattoo their body from head to foot?  Synapse in the brain, you're claiming?  I'm not buying it
Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: Cynthia on June 17, 2008, 01:59:23 PM
I have witnessed it Cynthia, so I have the objecivity to assess for myself, and given my predisposition towards my walk with God, and the acute lack of any scientific proof to the contrary, I'm airing on the side of caution....that of my spiritual being, when I'm no longer a living entity of the materailistic world we live in currently.  And my God has made it clear to me what's right, what's wrong, what's sin and what isn't.

Doesn't mean I don't tolerate such a choice.  But it also means I'm not obliged in any way to support it as "normal" or perfectly acceptable lifestyle.  Why do some people chose to pierce nearly every orafice they have?  Why do some people choose to tattoo their body from head to foot?  Synapse in the brain, you're claiming?  I'm not buying it

Sirs, well, I am not saying that a boy child who displays feminine characteristics should be classified as not normal.And he certainly should not be classified in the same category as one who choses to pierce body parts, or a religious faith etc.
As I observed the differences between this boy and the other boys in the class, there were clear biological traits which seemed to be innately feminine in him,  and certainly not something this boy made a choice to imitate. 
I realize that your faith is 'part of you' from birth, but this is more biological in nature, not brain based synapes. (unless gender origniates from Brain Synapses, solely)

I also believe that same sex relations is wrong. I am speaking of tendencies that are clearly unique in a physical nature. Now, if that boy choses to be with a woman for a mate when he grows up, even though he may have attractions to men, that is a "choice".  I have heard of gay men making such a decision because of their faith in God.

Interesting, becasue this little boy would never hang around other boys. He related to others, made choices like the the girl students. Most boys play with other boys in 3rd grade. So, I am curious. Just watching from the outside. Noting the interesting differences between the genders, but If indeed there is something biological in the issue of whether someone is "gay" or not, my jury is still out on this one. 
Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: sirs on June 17, 2008, 02:38:48 PM
And as I have observed Cynthia, I see children and young adults make CHOICES that makes no sense to me, what-so-ever.  Whether it's because of some obsession, rebellion, perversion, or whatever.  Why would anyone want to pierce their tongue??, their nipple?, their penis?  Obviously I'm not referring to 6-7year olds, since I know that's the 1st thing Xo would try to make hay with, the point being, we all make choices that boggle the mind.  You're trying to claim that we're hardwired to make these choice.  Without some heavy handed scientific PROOF, I'm going with free will on this one. 

And the argument used to claim "why would some gay boy choose to be ridiculed and at risk for bodily harm by true homphobes", would be the same answer as to why does someone want to pierce their penis or drill massive holes thru their ear lobes?

In other words, I have no idea, but its their choice, as long as it's their body.......with their parents' permission of course
Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: Amianthus on June 17, 2008, 02:58:11 PM
Why would anyone want to pierce their tongue??, their nipple?, their penis?

Well, the "Prince Albert" piercing (ring through the head of the penis) was purported to be functional originally. However, now they're done for sexual pleasure (both for the person and his / her partner).
Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 17, 2008, 02:59:57 PM
I would say that sexual orientation is much of the time hormonal, and hormones are genetically determined.

Just as a normal heterosexual might choose to be celibate, a latent homosexual might choose to be celibate or heterosexual. Sure, this is a matter of choice, but again, that choice is guided by hormones, which are genetic in origin much of the time.

As for full body tattoos and piercings, those are also one's free choice, but I think that they are psychologically driven rather than hormonally driven. I would say that such things are more related to masochism than gender. I imagine that there are heterosexuals who opt to be homosexual and vice versa because they are masochists as well, bit I would imagine that such cases are very scarce.
Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: sirs on June 17, 2008, 03:04:03 PM
Hey, their choice, (as grotesque a choice as I might find it).  Thanks for the head's up, Ami.  

And for Xo, I went thru the similar sexually driven hormonal desires and urges, and chose to follow some, and not to follow others.

Still, my choice
Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: kimba1 on June 17, 2008, 03:16:53 PM
I find the concept of choice highly controversal than homosexuals is biological.
due to thre very fact it seems to be a great deal more gay men than females.
meaning despite culturally lesbians are more accepted and even encouraged.
the concept of choice means females are more harder to be with than males.
Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: sirs on June 17, 2008, 04:01:24 PM
Hey, I can't explain other sexual urges either, only that people have them.  It how one chooses to act upon them.

And until I see scientific proof to the contrary, free will still wins
Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: Cynthia on June 17, 2008, 04:12:14 PM
I would say that sexual orientation is much of the time hormonal, and hormones are genetically determined.

Just as a normal heterosexual might choose to be celibate, a latent homosexual might choose to be celibate or heterosexual. Sure, this is a matter of choice, but again, that choice is guided by hormones, which are genetic in origin much of the time.

As for full body tattoos and piercings, those are also one's free choice, but I think that they are psychologically driven rather than hormonally driven. I would say that such things are more related to masochism than gender. I imagine that there are heterosexuals who opt to be homosexual and vice versa because they are masochists as well, bit I would imagine that such cases are very scarce.


Well, that's what I have been trying to say....yes, it hormones makes sense.

 The tone in the little boy's voice, the manner in which he moves, speaks with such high pitch and emotes ...are all so very feminine. That's just an observation.  What makes it interesting and so clear is that the observation is objective and easy because the subjects are children. Children are such natural beings to observe and take note of such differences....
I frankly don't get the connection between the issue of "hormones" and piercing.....faith and hotdogs. Choices? ha! But if one wants to pierce their weenie....shesh...go for it....


I wouldn't have a tatoo engraved on my big toe, even if you paid me. ;) so to each his / her own.
Choices vs physical "makeup" ?

Seems to be the issue here. 
XO, once again hit this one on the nail. ....without a ring around the rosie or the ralphie!
Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: Cynthia on June 17, 2008, 04:19:12 PM
Hey, I can't explain other sexual urges either, only that people have them.  It how one chooses to act upon them.

And until I see scietific proof to the contrary, free will still wins

There are boys and girls  who are born with with more female/male parts, Sirs. Surely you have heard of such a thing. I had a student in 2001 who was diagnosed with this; She had a deep voice and facial fuzz (hair)....The girl was as cute as a button, but it was very obvious that she had more male hormones. Now, that isn't to say she will chose one way or another in terms of sexually relating to a mate, but it is clearly a biological condition. and if that is scientifically proven...then why not a desire to procreate with someone who is not in our traditional scheme of what's normal?
http://www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex
Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: sirs on June 17, 2008, 04:38:23 PM
I had a student in 2001 who was diagnosed with this; She had a deep voice and facial fuzz (hair)....The girl was as cute as a button, but it was very obvious that she had more male hormones. Now, that isn't to say she will chose one way or another in terms of sexually relating to a mate, but it is clearly a biological condition. and if that is scientifically proven...then why not a desire to procreate with someone who is not in our traditional scheme of what's normal?

Free will still wins, Cynthia.  I never said we don't have desires, Cynthia.  I simply referenced on how we chose to act or not act on them

Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: kimba1 on June 17, 2008, 04:41:25 PM
I`m not sure gender truely is an issue on this matter.
I know very unmasculine guys who totally are not gay in fact they act that way to get more girls.
I read a study awhile back that mens concepts of what attractive to women usually tend to be abit off.
ex. us men tend to high think highly musular men are more desireable to women.
but slim athelic built is actually prefered.
I remember a gay comedian saying in his prom he spoiled his date for all men.
because she`ll now think men will listen to her.
Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: Plane on June 17, 2008, 04:48:04 PM
Is a minimal level of masculinity the reason for homosexuality?

Or are lots of Homosexuals quite macho?
Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: fatman on June 17, 2008, 05:24:32 PM
Is a minimal level of masculinity the reason for homosexuality?

Or are lots of Homosexuals quite macho?


Without getting into the slang terms, there are plenty of both.  I don't think any one version of masculinity is dominant.

I DO think that a lot of gays think that they need to "act" gay, with the lisp and such, rather than being themselves.  Whether it is because they wish to reinforce a societal stereotype or simply going with the crowd, that's up for debate.
Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: kimba1 on June 17, 2008, 05:36:30 PM
uhm
note :I don`t see these videos
I`m quoting a radio host.
but most if not all gay porn is macho.
none are portrayed as stereotype limpwristed gays.

ok I did see a jeff stryker vid
but in a hetero way only.

Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: fatman on June 17, 2008, 05:48:14 PM
One of the hottest sellers in the gay porn industry is "twink porn", slim to athletic guys in their late teens and early twenties.  A lot of them are rather femme.
Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: kimba1 on June 17, 2008, 05:55:43 PM
on my name is earl ,one of the character said brokeback mountain ruined it for gay men.
saying now all gaymen want the hunky cowboy look.


I had no idea about the twink trend
I definately prove I don`t see enough gay porn.
but doesn`t the twink means a preference to youth instead all things femme?
Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: fatman on June 17, 2008, 05:58:12 PM
Twink is definitely a preference for young, true.  But there's lots of tranny porn out there too, and that is definitely femme.  I don't think fetishism occurs more in homosexuals, but I think that it is expressed more.  There's a lot of things that I find personally disturbing and repulsive, but if it's legal and floats your boat, more power to ya.
Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 17, 2008, 06:00:59 PM
Free will still wins, Cynthia.  I never said we don't have desires, Cynthia.  I simply referenced on how we chose to act or not act on them
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Free will is a lot more important if one lives in a society with religious taboos against homosexuality,

In a culture like Thailand, there is not the huge onus on being gay that there is in the US. Many Christians and Jews consider homosexuality sinful, and those who surrender to it are either children of the devil or mentally unbalanced. 

In a lot of countries, being gay is seen like eating goat in the US. Acceptable, but a bit strange.
In fundamentalist subculture of the US South, being gay is like eating cockroaches publicly: either plum crazy or downright satanic.

Free will is one thing when just being eccentric, and something else again when it is against the prevailing cultural values that surround one.
Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: sirs on June 17, 2008, 06:06:18 PM
Umm, there are many free will choices that go against the norm of whatever particular culture & society they live in.  Still doesn't make it anything hardwired.  You'll let us know when they actually come up with some scientific proof, k?  Our thanks in advance
Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: kimba1 on June 17, 2008, 06:24:23 PM
oh no
fatman
you shouldn`t of brought that up
now I`m bound to talk about it
as a resident of san fracisco.
I have to point out all the tranny stuff are for the interest of heterosexual men(not me)
I don`t know whay but straight men love transgender.
the video store here make great effect to make sure those video don`t get placed to the gay section.
it creeps gay men out,but not straight guys(not me)
as a hetero I can`t explain why this is
and this is worldwide.
I see this japanese comics also.
Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: Cynthia on June 17, 2008, 10:07:57 PM
I had a student in 2001 who was diagnosed with this; She had a deep voice and facial fuzz (hair)....The girl was as cute as a button, but it was very obvious that she had more male hormones. Now, that isn't to say she will chose one way or another in terms of sexually relating to a mate, but it is clearly a biological condition. and if that is scientifically proven...then why not a desire to procreate with someone who is not in our traditional scheme of what's normal?

Free will still wins, Cynthia.  I never said we don't have desires, Cynthia.  I simply referenced on how we chose to act or not act on them



I am not arguing that, Sirs.
Free will can still keep this child who demostrates feminine behaviors, from chosing to relate sexually to another male when he grows up.
But, my point is that there are differences that perhaps we need to look into with a bit more science.

God, forbid that your wife or any family would birth a child who grows up making the choice to be "gay"...I am sorry if I offend anyone here, but I am a Christian, first and foremost....yet I still can not judge to the depths that some would against homosexuals. I believe there is a fair and just Lord who will open His arms to  any soul in the end.

But, I do believe that there are choices we can make in life to halt the desire to sin. Yes, I agree with that in my faith, Sirs. I do.

But what I am saying here is that biologically speaking there are so many differences genetically speaking- within the cells...my gosh, within all cellular life goin on in the universe, why box them into one bad/good category?

I hear you doing just that. I also hear you saying that sexual preference is a choice and that to choose the "right" path is to force nature to conform to the "word that is the Bible'.

Your 'choice' based on faith is not the same as the "choice" based on hormones.
This debate is not about whether it is right or wrong. For me it's a medical/biological question that needs exploration.

When I see a child who has such tendencies, I wonder if God in all of His love for the world decided once upon a time that to be born with intersex issues was basically BAD?
I doubt it... so I also tend to doubt this interpretation of what is written in teh Bible.

But, I support my Bible, My Lord before science in this case.....

it doesn't hurt to question, however.

Science clearly is not absent in faith.
Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: sirs on June 17, 2008, 11:23:05 PM
Free will still wins, Cynthia.  I never said we don't have desires.  I simply referenced on how we chose to act or not act on them

I am not arguing that, Sirs.  Free will can still keep this child who demostrates feminine behaviors, from chosing to relate sexually to another male when he grows up.  But, my point is that there are differences that perhaps we need to look into with a bit more science.  

Ummmm, with all due respect Cynthia, I think they are.....in spades.  And the best they can come up with so far is the "size of the house", that I referenced in my initial response to Prince.  So, getting back to square 1, we all have desires, many of them spurrned on & driven by the famouse teenage hormones.  I could go into what my sexual desires ..... were.  But this isn't the place or peoples to go into that with.  And no amount of science is going to help me out with them

Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: Cynthia on June 17, 2008, 11:28:47 PM
Free will still wins, Cynthia.  I never said we don't have desires.  I simply referenced on how we chose to act or not act on them

I am not arguing that, Sirs.  Free will can still keep this child who demostrates feminine behaviors, from chosing to relate sexually to another male when he grows up.  But, my point is that there are differences that perhaps we need to look into with a bit more science.  

Ummmm, with all due respect Cynthia, I think they are.....in spades.  And the best they can come up with so far is the "size of the house", that I referenced in my initial response to Prince.  So, getting back to square 1, we all have desires, many of them spurrned on & driven by the famouse teenage hormones.  I could go into what my sexual desires ..... were.  But this isn't the place or peoples to go into that with.  And no amount of science is going to help me out with them



Oh so were you a child who cried with the girls, tattled with the girls, spoke in a high pitched voice, like the girls, ordered pink diaries through Scholastic Book Orders with pink pens/feathers attached, craved the attention of little girls and teased the boys in the 3rd grade?
Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 17, 2008, 11:30:23 PM
If a person has no homosexual attractions, free will is pretty much a moot point.

If I hate anchovies, resisting ordering them is a very, very easy thing to do.

There are, however, people who DO have homosexual attractions, and I suggest to you that you have no clue as to how much will power they have or need. You are not them, and can never know this.

I think we can take people at their word about what attracts and repels them. This cannot really be measured scientifically, although at some point this may be possible if we know a lot more about brain waves and similar phenomenae.

In a society that has few taboos against homosexuality, people tend to do what their attractions tell them to do.
Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: sirs on June 17, 2008, 11:36:52 PM
Oh so were you a child who cried with the girls, tattled with the girls, spoke in a high pitched voice, like the girls, ordered pink diaries through Scholastic Book Orders with pink pens/feathers attached, craved the attention of little girls and teased the boys in the 3rd grade?

You really don't want to go there, Cynthia     >:(
Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: Cynthia on June 17, 2008, 11:40:07 PM
Oh so were you a child who cried with the girls, tattled with the girls, spoke in a high pitched voice, like the girls, ordered pink diaries through Scholastic Book Orders with pink pens/feathers attached, craved the attention of little girls and teased the boys in the 3rd grade?

You really don't want to go there, Cynthia     >:(

Rolling!

Oh hon...well, we agree on certain points, and yet my lab work is yet to be exposed. I will take notes and ask questions later.
Title: Re: brains of homosexuals are like those of straight people of the opposite sex
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 17, 2008, 11:41:51 PM
You really don't want to go there, Cynthia     >:(

==========================================

Touchy, touchy.
If she went there, one wonders what she might find...

(Not that there's anything wrong with that.)