DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Kramer on November 03, 2011, 06:59:40 PM
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Why to Buddhists set themselves on fire? What a bunch of idiots. There are less painful ways to be a coward than fire.
http://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/-/world/11327089/tibetan-nun-dies-in-self-immolation-in-china/ (http://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/-/world/11327089/tibetan-nun-dies-in-self-immolation-in-china/)
BEIJING (AFP) - A Tibetan nun died after setting herself on fire in southwest China on Thursday, the official Xinhua news agency said, in the eleventh such incident involving Buddhist monks and nuns in the restive region.
The International Campaign for Tibet confirmed the death of the nun, named Qiu Xiang and aged about 35, saying she called for religious freedom and the return of the Dalai Lama, the Tibetan spiritual leader, as she set herself on fire.
London-based rights group Free Tibet also confirmed the latest incident when contacted by AFP.
Xinhua said Qiu set herself alight around 1:00 pm (0500 GMT) in Dawu county, part of Ganzi prefecture in China's Sichuan province, and that local authorities had launched an investigation into the nun's death.
Local police declined to comment when contacted by AFP.
But Xinhua later said an initial police investigation had shown the case was "masterminded and instigated by the Dalai Lama clique, which had plotted a chain of self-immolations in the past months for splitting motives".
Xinhua cited Tashi Omgyene, a local official.
Eight Tibetan Buddhist monks and two nuns have now set themselves alight in Tibetan-inhabited regions of Sichuan since the self-immolation of a young monk at the Kirti monastery in Aba county in March sparked major protests that led to a government clampdown.
At least five monks and two nuns have died in the self-immolations, rights groups have said.
"We heard she called for religious freedom and the return of the Dalai Lama to Tibet," International Campaign for Tibet spokeswoman Kate Saunders said, citing sources in the region.
Tibetans in Ganzi prefecture are "known to be strong in their religious beliefs" and the region "has been very restive for some time, particularly since July", Saunders added.
Many Tibetans in China are angry about what they see as growing domination by the country's majority Han ethnic group.
Most of the suicide attempts have taken place around the Kirti monastery, which is also in Sichuan, and which has become a flashpoint for the mounting anger at the erosion of Tibetan culture.
All but two of the incidents occurred in Aba after Chinese authorities in late August jailed three monks for prison terms ranging from 11 to 13 years for their alleged involvement in the March death in Kirti.
Monks in Aba prefecture -- which borders Ganzi -- told AFP last month that the wave of self-immolations are linked to Beijing's refusal to engage with the Dalai Lama and allow the spiritual leader to return to his Tibetan homeland.
The Dalai Lama, who fled Tibet following a failed uprising against Chinese rule in 1959, founded a government in exile in the northern Indian town of Dharamshala after being offered refuge there.
He remains revered in China's Tibetan areas but is vilified as a "separatist" by China's communist authorities.
The Dalai Lama has long denied he is seeking an independent Tibet, but only desires greater autonomy for his homeland under Chinese rule.
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I can't answer as an authority, my closest relationship to Bhuddism is BsB.
But here is what I think,........... Buddists respect this self sacrifice as a sort of heroism.
The Chineese are right to be worried.
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Buddhists seem to set themselves on fire about as often as Christians have themselves crucified. It is just that a burning monk, priest, nun or bonze makes for more dramatic photos. It is seriously offensive to Catholics when someone puts a picture of some penitente in New Mexico hanging on a cross, and most of them actually survive the ordeal, anyway. So it does not make the papers.
To set one's self on fire does show a serious attempt to make a point. No one does this on a lark. Unlike the penitente, the self-immolater is directing his protest outward at the rulers, rather than inward, at his one sins.
It is a very rare occurrence. But I agree with Plane that it is an impressive one, and seems to be something that the Chinese government cannot easily deal with.
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I can't answer as an authority, my closest relationship to Bhuddism is BsB.
But he is what I think, Buddists respect this self sacrifice as a sort of heroism.
The Chineese are right to be worried.
So in your opinion they burn themselves so others look at them as heroes? Why would a Buddhist care what others think of them? Especially to go to that extreme where they can't see the crowds reactions once they are dead. Death kinda ends a lot of feelings.
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They do not set themselves on fire to be martyrs or heroes. Martyrdom and heroism are alien to Buddhism.
Buddha said that he did not expect to be remembered after three centuries, and that did not bother him in the least. His goal was to teach the eightfold path and other basic truths that he had discovered, so that others would not have to endure what he had endured to learn them.
They do it to indicate in the most impressive way possible that an injustice is being committed. It is not an ego thing.
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I can't answer as an authority, my closest relationship to Bhuddism is BsB.
But he is what I think, Buddists respect this self sacrifice as a sort of heroism.
The Chineese are right to be worried.
So in your opinion they burn themselves so others look at them as heroes? Why would a Buddhist care what others think of them? Especially to go to that extreme where they can't see the crowds reactions once they are dead. Death kinda ends a lot of feelings.
I don't think that winning admiration is the point.
I think that rocking the boat is the point, making the powerfull feel less in controll of events.
The admiration of the public helps this happen, but it can't be the point of the exercise itself or ,as you point out, there would be no time to enjoy the admiration.
The Faulin Gong were self immolating for a while, the Chineese authority came down on them like a ton of bricks .
The Chineese government wants more controll of thinking than even the Chineese think is right.
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The Chinese government wants China to be an orderly place. If there is no order, there can be no progress. If there is no order, even corruption and the corrupt suffer.
Chinese history is a series of orderly periods of stability and prosperity and disorderly periods of anarchy, conquest and starvation. Often the periods of anarchy were brought on by rather unstable leaders, like those who started the Boxer Rebellion.
The Chinese government prefers the former and seeks to prevent the latter. So do I. Anarchy in China would affect us adversely here in the US for at least several years.
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Anarchy in the US hasn't seemed to hurt China all that much.
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The Chineese have had just as much or more famine in times of good order.
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The US does not have a state of anarchy and has not had anything anyone could call anarchy since the Civil War.
Police shooting rubber bullets and tear gas at 300 people in Oakland is not anarchy. There have been worse soccer hooligan riots.
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The Chineese have had just as much or more famine in times of good order.
So a few years of no rain or ruined crops and shit could hit the fan? Nothing worse than hordes of pissed off peasants with hoes **.
** not speaking of Obama's old girlfriends
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it`s kinda hard to think someone who sets oneself on fire is a coward. wouldn`t that be the least a coward would even think of doing?
it maybe the most extreme pain one can feel before dying. survivors tend to die from the shock than the injuries.
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it`s kinda hard to think someone who sets oneself on fire is a coward. wouldn`t that be the least a coward would even think of doing?
it maybe the most extreme pain one can feel before dying. survivors tend to die from the shock than the injuries.
Since when does enduring high amounts of pain when committing suicide equate to not being a coward? Seems like dying would be the easy way out from a perceived bad situation. The heroic thing to do would be stay and fight for your cause. Plus, how do you know they haven't drugged up or put themselves into a trance and aren't buffering the effects? In the end they are ending their one and only life. Only a moron would believe they will be reincarnated.
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Only a moron would believe they will be reincarnated.
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Why is it any less moronic to believe that one will be resurrected to sing in the Choir Celestial for all eternity?
If all energy is eternal, (and we know that neither energy or matter can vanish into nothingness) then why would it not make sense for spiritual essence to inhabit another body? Does it make more sense to die, stay dead until the Final Judgement, then be resurrected in your previous body and then ascend to Heaven? That is the basic Christian belief, after all.
I don't see where either belief is "moronic".
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Only a moron would believe they will be reincarnated.
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Why is it any less moronic to believe that one will be resurrected to sing in the Choir Celestial for all eternity?
If all energy is eternal, (and we know that neither energy or matter can vanish into nothingness) then why would it not make sense for spiritual essence to inhabit another body? Does it make more sense to die, stay dead until the Final Judgement, then be resurrected in your previous body and then ascend to Heaven? That is the basic Christian belief, after all.
I don't see where either belief is "moronic".
Other than the fact Jesus has witnesses to his resurrection. There are no people coming forward claiming to touch or see a reincarnated person. Yet anyway.
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Since when does enduring high amounts of pain when committing suicide equate to not being a coward?
actually this would be a first that i have heard of this .
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Suicide being a cowardly act is a western point of view.
Even so there are no cultures that can't appreaciate large self sacrifice for the greater good.
Don't Americans admire our heros that risk death in good cause? Perhaps we are peculiar for not admireing the same when the death is certain.
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Other than the fact Jesus has witnesses to his resurrection. There are no people coming forward claiming to touch or see a reincarnated person. Yet anyway.
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Jesus' reappearance was insufficiently convincing to Thomas, who demanded to put his finger in a wound. Though the usual way we recognize a person we have not seen for a while is their voice.
Note that every one of the supposed eyewitness accounts were written many, many years after the actual event.
There are indeed legends of reincarnated people. The current Dalai Lama is the 14th reincarnation of the first one. The Lamas have tests to establish reincarnation at least as convincing as anything described in the Bible.
Fpor you to claim that everyone of the millions of people that believe in reincarnation is a "moron", and to claim that all the folderol surrounding the Jesus legend is true reveals far more about you and your lack of critical thinking than anything about the relative likelihood of reincarnation or resurrection.
Truth is, it boil down to this: there is nothing in either story valid enough to be admitted in any US court of law. Thomas is not available to testify, but every so often one of the monks that has given the tests to the future Dalai or Panchen Lamas might be available to testify as a witness.
The test generally consists of a possible infant candidate (that was born 49 days after the death of the previous lama) identifying correctly various artifacts (glasses, canes, robes, bowls, etc) belonging to the previous lama from among a variety of similar items owned by other lamas.
You can argue that selecting only male candidates is invalid. You can argue that it is coincidence, but the test is more valid than putting a finger in a wound.
The fact is there is insufficient evidence to conclusively prove that the soul will eventually be resurrected and go to Heaven, installed in its resurrected body, OR that the soul is reincarnated in a recently born body. It is also possible, as Aristotle believes, that the soul survives, but its memory, all that makes a person what they are, simply vanishes like erased bits on your hard drive.
Calling people morons because they do not believe the rather outlandish tale regarding what happens to souls as believed by Christians is foolish.
Note that proving that Jesus was immortal does not in any logical way prove that anyone else is or was or will be.
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Other than the fact Jesus has witnesses to his resurrection. There are no people coming forward claiming to touch or see a reincarnated person. Yet anyway.
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Jesus' reappearance was insufficiently convincing to Thomas, who demanded to put his finger in a wound. Though the usual way we recognize a person we have not seen for a while is their voice.
Note that every one of the supposed eyewitness accounts were written many, many years after the actual event.
There are indeed legends of reincarnated people. The current Dalai Lama is the 14th reincarnation of the first one. The Lamas have tests to establish reincarnation at least as convincing as anything described in the Bible.
Fpor you to claim that everyone of the millions of people that believe in reincarnation is a "moron", and to claim that all the folderol surrounding the Jesus legend is true reveals far more about you and your lack of critical thinking than anything about the relative likelihood of reincarnation or resurrection.
Truth is, it boil down to this: there is nothing in either story valid enough to be admitted in any US court of law. Thomas is not available to testify, but every so often one of the monks that has given the tests to the future Dalai or Panchen Lamas might be available to testify as a witness.
The test generally consists of a possible infant candidate (that was born 49 days after the death of the previous lama) identifying correctly various artifacts (glasses, canes, robes, bowls, etc) belonging to the previous lama from among a variety of similar items owned by other lamas.
You can argue that selecting only male candidates is invalid. You can argue that it is coincidence, but the test is more valid than putting a finger in a wound.
The fact is there is insufficient evidence to conclusively prove that the soul will eventually be resurrected and go to Heaven, installed in its resurrected body, OR that the soul is reincarnated in a recently born body. It is also possible, as Aristotle believes, that the soul survives, but its memory, all that makes a person what they are, simply vanishes like erased bits on your hard drive.
Calling people morons because they do not believe the rather outlandish tale regarding what happens to souls as believed by Christians is foolish.
Note that proving that Jesus was immortal does not in any logical way prove that anyone else is or was or will be.
Regardless of all that boring drivel, suicide by fire is dumb, in the context that Buddhists tend to do it.
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didn`t a revolution in the middle east got started by a guy who set himself on fire? I think this year and it worked to the point it caused protest in other countries.
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Yeah, change the subject when it gets over your head.
I would not set myself on fire. But I am not Chinese and I do not feel what the Buddhist in question felt.
To say it is universally "dumb" is simplistic. To charge a better armed enemy is considered heroic in the West, even when it is clearly suicidal. Of course, when a person sets himself on fire, he endangers no one but himself.
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Yeah, change the subject when it gets over your head.
I learned that technique from you.