Give Gaza to Egypt

[modestyblase]

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0128/p01s03-wome.html

I'm really upset that this didn't play out differently. I was hoping it would let Israel off the hook in re: to supporting Gaza.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Daniel Stupid Pipes deserves a antiblog of his own. Pipe Down, it should be called.

Gaza is a prison with two million hungry inmates. They are no Egyptians, they are Palestinians. The Egyptians do not want them, they are too radical, and the Egyptians already have too many of the Muslim Brotherhood to oppress, torture and kill. Egypt did control Gaza once, before the Israelis took it away from them. They did a poorer job of running Gaza than they did of running Israel.

The Israelis tried running Gaza too, and it didn't work. They were forced out by political pressures from within and without.

The people of Gaza elected Hamas, and all the enemies of Hamas have done everything in their power to keep Hamas from doing much more than presiding over rising desperation. Last week the Gazans broke out of their prison. Had they torn down a wall into Israel, they would have been massacred, but Mubarak, goon that he is, could not attack desperate people.

Why should Gazans be denied the right to export their goods?

The rocket attacks could be turned into a non-menace by Israel simply moving its people out of the targeted places. They don't do this because they seem to enjoy martyrdom. Everyone in that insanew part of the world enjoys martyrdom. Carefully considered, martyrdom and guilt are th Middle East's main exports.

[Michael Tee]

Thanks for clarifying the question, MB.  Sure I've got issues.  You can't be Jewish and not have issues with regard to the State of Israel.  It's a very personal thing.  My wife has family there.  We both have family who are Holocaust survivors and even more who were Holocaust victims, even though we never knew them.  So we both know a little bit about fascism, too.  It's one of those things, that when you are reading a newspaper, and there is just one tiny little article about the Jews, or Israel or the Nazis, your eye just gets pulled into it and you can't help but read it.  This stuff is very personal to us, and to almost every Jew that we know.  It's not our whole life but it's an indelible part of us, something you just can't get away from, no matter how much we may have assimilated into the North American life-style.

[Michael Tee]

<<The Israelis tried running Gaza too, and it didn't work. They were forced out by political pressures from within and without.>>

Actually, XO, they were forced out by money pressures, just as they were forced out of South Lebanon.  They simply couldn't afford the cost of occupying all those areas.  Gaza in particular had only 8,000 Jewish settlers in a sea of a million Arabs, so it made more sense to pay off the settlers and "get out of Dodge."

I agree with the rest of your post, though.  Egypt doesn't want the responsibility or the radicalism and the Palestinians don't want the chance to experience Mubarak's torture chambers. 

Gaza, the rockets, and the dilemma seem to be emblematic of Israel's future problems, though.  A land which costs too much to occupy, a people which can't be exterminated, a technology (rocketry) which can only grow more effective over time - - - geeze, what is the end result when the people of the West Bank are finally reduced to the misery of the Gazans?   Lotsa rockets, an occupation which costs more than it delivers . . . at some point, Israelis may have to say to the West Bank settlers, "Folks, you're on your own from here on in.  We're pulling out in six months.  Come back to Israel with us, otherwise have a nice life with your Arab neighbours."

[Xavier_Onassis]

I imagine you follow what is going on in the Israeli press more than I do, I had the impression that the average Israeli decided that Gaza was not worth the bad press that Israel was getting at home and abroad (Gaza was rarely or never historically part of Israel in Biblical times), and the constant woundings and killings of Gaza colonists and the troops defending them. I didn't read much about the monetary cost, but that had to be a very expensive way of supporting 8000 or so Israelis surrounded by millions of people who spent most of their lives hating their guts.

Gaza is sort of like an entire society driven insane by abuse. IT;s sort of like what do you do with all the junkyard dogs when they decide to sell the junkyard and turn it into condos.  I can't imagine any sort of successful outcome for the people of Gaza at the present time.

[Rich]

>>Egypt did control Gaza once, before the Israelis took it away from them.<<

LMAO ...

I love this kind of bullshit, I really do. Da big bad Iwaelis goose stepped over and just took it away from da widdle Egyptians.

Aren't you leaving out a big chucnk of history here Uncle Mike? Could you be more dishonest?

Of course not, it's the big lie.

[Xavier_Onassis]

>>Egypt did control Gaza once, before the Israelis took it away from them.<<

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Explain, Richie, how this is not true.

No one is arguing that the Egyptian Army is even remotely competent, or that the Egyptian government is even minimally qualified to run Egypt, let alone Gaza AND Egypt.

The only solutions is that eventually, Palestinians will run Gaza. The Israelis cannot, the Egyptians will not. There is no one else left.

[Rich]

You actually "teach," and you don't know the history of the Gaza strip? Another example of why the public school system is failing America's youth.

That's right folks, those mean ole Israelis marched right in and took it. Unprovoked, and just for spite.

Good grief ....

[Michael Tee]

<<That's right folks, those mean ole Israelis marched right in and took it. Unprovoked, and just for spite.>>

I think you're missing the point, Rich.  It doesn't really matter much to the Gazans HOW or WHY or WHEN the Israelis "marched right in and took it."  The vast majority of them weren't even born at the time.  They live in absolutely hellish conditions, which everyone, even the Israelis, will admit.

Israel has occupied Gaza for over 40 years.  These people's lives under Israeli occupation have been pure misery.  Even after their "withdrawal," the Israelis still have a stranglehold on the Gazan economy and won't let go any time soon.

The Gazan civilians are entitled to a life.  They don't have to love Israel as a precondition to having a life and they don't even have to accept Israel's existence.  It's their right as human beings to believe whatever they want about Israel's right to exist and still to have a life regardless of what they believe.

If the Gazans cannot or will  not stop the rocket attacks on Israel, then the Israeli defence forces have the right to enter Gaza themselves and try to pacify it within the rules of warfare as embodied in the Geneva Conventions.  But if they invaded they would have the responsibility of securing the welfare of the general civilian population, as for example, the Allies did in Germany.  The Israelis instead have chosen not to assume the responsibility of occupying a land which they claim is attacking them, but instead they are deliberately taking reprisals against the civilian population, which is forbidden by international law and is profoundly immoral and repugnant to most sane and normal people in the world.

[Rich]

>>If the Gazans cannot or will not stop the rocket attacks on Israel, then the Israeli defense forces have the right to enter Gaza themselves and try to pacify it within the rules of warfare as embodied in the Geneva Conventions. But if they invaded they would have the responsibility of securing the welfare of the general civilian population, as for example, the Allies did in Germany. The Israelis instead have chosen not to assume the responsibility of occupying a land which they claim is attacking them, ? <<

As I read this I found myself nodding my head and thinking, ?Okay, he?s actually making sense here for a change.? But then this:

>> ? but instead they are deliberately taking reprisals against the civilian population, which is forbidden by international law and is profoundly immoral and repugnant to most sane and normal people in the world.<<

You and I will never agree on this subject until you can get past this anti-Israeli propaganda. Simply put, it?s nonsense and it?s counter productive to any kind of middle ground. There can be no disputing that Israel is being attacked from all sides in this conflict. It also cannot be disputed that the ?civilian? population in Gaza is indistinguishable from the ?terrorist? population and are more than likely the entire population.

If Arabs/Egyptians are so worried about these mythical Palestinians, why the hell do they erect a fence to keep them out?

[Michael Tee]

<<There can be no disputing that Israel is being attacked from all sides in this conflict. >>

Well, don't get carried away.  They're being attacked from Gaza and possibly on a very small scale from southern Lebanon.

<<It also cannot be disputed that the ?civilian? population in Gaza is indistinguishable from the ?terrorist? population and are more than likely the entire population.>>

Well, if that were true, the Gazans would have an army of a million and the Israelis would be in some very deep doo-doo.  The civilian population in Gaza is easy enough to distinguish - - they're the kids in elementary school, the mums with baby carriages, the old men and old women.  The "terrorists" are overwhelmingly male, aged from late teens to mid-forties or fifties and don't bear any resemblance to nursing babies, young mothers or elderly people.

[Rich]

If the civilian population and the terrorist population gave a shit about the poor little kids and the mums with baby carriages (boo hoo), and grandma and grandpa they would stop killing the Israeli children, the Israeli mothers and children, and the Israeli grandparents today. If there is no army of terrorists and no civilians support them, it would be very simple to make peace and move forward. But we both know there is only one thing on these people's mind; Kill every Israeli man woman and child. Until they stop teaching their children to be racist genocidal monsters, Israeli has no duty to any of these people. None. Let Egypt deal with their Arab/Muslim brothers. If they were any kind of Muslim they would do so for no other reason than their religion teaches them to do so.
No Mike, this is a farce. This war in to deeply embedded into Arab mentality to ever be anything other than an effort to committ genocide about the Jews. It's up to the mothers pushing around those babies to teach them that all this racism and hate is wrong and maybe then we can have peace in the Middle East and perhaps even the world.

[modestyblase]

I have to agree with Rich on this one.

Egypt did control Gaza once, before the Israelis took it away from them.

Israel "took it away"? I think the entirety of the Six Day War was more complicated than "Israel took it away".

The people of Gaza elected Hamas, and all the enemies of Hamas have done everything in their power to keep Hamas from doing much more than presiding over rising desperation.

Hamas is a militant Islamic faction that advocates the sort of religious nuttery that terrifies the world(ie, suicide bombings). They attack Israel daily, have implemented a nearly totalitarian police state, and as long as Hamas runs the PA you can kiss negotiable opportunities goodbye. Brings to mind that Eban's (in)famous quote: "The palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity".

The rocket attacks could be turned into a non-menace by Israel simply moving its people out of the targeted places. They don't do this because they seem to enjoy martyrdom. Everyone in that insanew part of the world enjoys martyrdom. Carefully considered, martyrdom and guilt are th Middle East's main exports.

I admit that if they evacuated the citizens in Sderot & the like, that it would certainly cut casualties-but I would still consider it a menace, and Hamas would simply find new targets or take a different route to being a menace.
As for martyrdom: no. Israel has every right to exist, and they are not the ones guilty of avoiding reality in favor of trying to bend it to "God's Will", which is the crux of Islamic thought.

<<The Israelis tried running Gaza too, and it didn't work. They were forced out by political pressures from within and without.>>
Actually, XO, they were forced out by money pressures, just as they were forced out of South Lebanon.  They simply couldn't afford the cost of occupying all those areas. 

Shaaba Farms?

They live in absolutely hellish conditions, which everyone, even the Israelis, will admit.

Israel has occupied Gaza for over 40 years.  These people's lives under Israeli occupation have been pure misery.  Even after their "withdrawal," the Israelis still have a stranglehold on the Gazan economy and won't let go any time soon.

Lebanon and Syria impose far worse conditions.

The Gazan civilians are entitled to a life.  They don't have to love Israel as a precondition to having a life and they don't even have to accept Israel's existence.  It's their right as human beings to believe whatever they want about Israel's right to exist and still to have a life regardless of what they believe.

Therein is the issue. They are so adamantly opposed to recognition of Israel in any manner that they will forsake themselves viciously. EVERYONE WANTS A FREAKING "PEACE" DEAL. Palestinians refuse repeatedly, mainly due to religious issues. These people are not thinking clearly, partly due to their environment but moreso due to their religion. This is extremely frightening due to some of the crazier-than-Hamas Islamists who want to restore the Caliphate.

Let Egypt deal with their Arab/Muslim brothers. If they were any kind of Muslim they would do so for no other reason than their religion teaches them to do so.

I think Israel is pining away for that day. The Arabs have committed greater atrocities against the Palestinians than anything the Israelis could be accused of.

This war in to deeply embedded into Arab mentality to ever be anything other than an effort to committ genocide about the Jews. It's up to the mothers pushing around those babies to teach them that all this racism and hate is wrong and maybe then we can have peace in the Middle East and perhaps even the world.

Word.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Egypt did control Gaza once, before the Israelis took it away from them.

Israel "took it away"? I think the entirety of the Six Day War was more complicated than "Israel took it away".

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Did I say it wasn't complicated?

I said that Israel took Gaza away from the Egyptians. This is a true fact. And in the end, they could not control it, and had to leave. If they invaded again, they would again find it to be impossible, more so than any damage their makeshift rockets will ever do.

The Palestinians suffer many, many more deaths than the Israelis.

[Plane]

>>Egypt did control Gaza once, before the Israelis took it away from them.<<

===================================================================
Explain, Richie, how this is not true.

No one is arguing that the Egyptian Army is even remotely competent, or that the Egyptian government is even minimally qualified to run Egypt, let alone Gaza AND Egypt.

The only solutions is that eventually, Palestinians will run Gaza. The Israelis cannot, the Egyptians will not. There is no one else left.

Are the Palestinians competant in this way that th Egyptans and Israelis are not?