Author Topic: Russia to deploy missiles in Kaliningrad  (Read 5105 times)

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Plane

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Re: Russia to deploy missiles in Kaliningrad
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2008, 12:48:05 AM »

I think of the Nazi invasion as invasion by proxy - - a proxy gone mad and out of control, but nevertheless a proxy of Western capitalism.  A lot of Russians have the same idea.  Hitler had a lot of help from friends in the west, Henry Ford was one of the better known ones, but there were plenty of others.

I know that Hitler had American admirerers in the Thirtys , but so did Stalin , no more and no less.

I have even heard of Canadians admireing Stalin , but I consider it a wild leap to accuse them of Stalins decisions.

Plane

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Re: Russia to deploy missiles in Kaliningrad
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2008, 12:52:55 AM »
<<Depends on the missile defense system.

<<But, of course, we know they don't work, right?>>


Weren't Saddam's missiles shot down by Patriots on the way from Iraq to Tel Aviv?  Some of them, anyway?  (I know they don't work 100% because my sister-in-law in Ramat Gan saw a house on her own block get hit by a missile.)



About 50%

A decade of improvements since then , but the SCUD is a 1950's missle so the Russians could fire stuff that has been improved for sixty years since the SCUD was designed.

Why worry about it tho?

If in Poland thre is an instalation that can intercept a few missles that the Russians do not really want to shoot anyway why do they care?

Amianthus

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Re: Russia to deploy missiles in Kaliningrad
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2008, 12:56:40 AM »
It would be nice if you guys would be consistent.

We shouldn't spend money on SDI ("Star Wars") because it can't possibly work, but even if it doesn't work, Russia is justified in being mad at us for working on a system that won't work.

And, of course, Russia gets a pass on their own version of missile defense. So does China, I guess.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Russia to deploy missiles in Kaliningrad
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2008, 12:58:08 AM »
<<If in Poland thre is an instalation that can intercept a few missles that the Russians do not really want to shoot anyway why do they care?>>

That's obvious.  If those "few missiles" represent a second-strike capability, the Russians don't want their deterrent cut off at the knees.  They'd be that much more vulnerable to a first strike.

Michael Tee

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Re: Russia to deploy missiles in Kaliningrad
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2008, 01:01:27 AM »
<<I know that Hitler had American admirerers in the Thirtys , but so did Stalin , no more and no less.

<<I have even heard of Canadians admireing Stalin , but I consider it a wild leap to accuse them of Stalins decisions.>>

This goes way beyond the issue of "admirers."  The issue is one of support and backing by powerful individuals who can provide tens, maybe hundreds of millions of dollars, industrial partnerships and more.

And, you're losing sight of your own point.

Michael Tee

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Re: Russia to deploy missiles in Kaliningrad
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2008, 01:05:38 AM »
<<It would be nice if you guys would be consistent.>>

the hobgoblin of little minds, eh?

<<We shouldn't spend money on SDI ("Star Wars") because it can't possibly work, but even if it doesn't work, Russia is justified in being mad at us for working on a system that won't work.>>

Dunno who yer quotin' there, but it ain't me.

<<And, of course, Russia gets a pass on their own version of missile defense. So does China, I guess.>>

Russia is the victim of multiple invasions, the U.S. is not.  So yeah, let Russia have all the missile defences it wants.  But THAT'S not the issue.  The issue is whether the U.S.A. should be allowed to set up its missile shield on Russia's doorstep, thereby depriving it of a credible deterrent.

Plane

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Re: Russia to deploy missiles in Kaliningrad
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2008, 01:06:24 AM »
<<I know that Hitler had American admirerers in the Thirtys , but so did Stalin , no more and no less.

<<I have even heard of Canadians admireing Stalin , but I consider it a wild leap to accuse them of Stalins decisions.>>

This goes way beyond the issue of "admirers."  The issue is one of support and backing by powerful individuals who can provide tens, maybe hundreds of millions of dollars, industrial partnerships and more.

And, you're losing sight of your own point.


I amn willing to go off on your tangent.

Hitler did not find  any more helpers from England and the US than Stalin did , what is the diffrence?

Oh, that Stalins party was more famouis for shooting wealthy people? I guess I can see that being a diffrence.

I had forgotten about the invasions in the early Soviet History , too bad they could not have set things right.

Amianthus

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Re: Russia to deploy missiles in Kaliningrad
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2008, 01:07:55 AM »
That's obvious.  If those "few missiles" represent a second-strike capability, the Russians don't want their deterrent cut off at the knees.  They'd be that much more vulnerable to a first strike.

Missiles used for missile defense are "kinetic kill" varieties - they do not have warheads, and therefore they cannot used be for "second strike" on ground targets.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Amianthus

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Re: Russia to deploy missiles in Kaliningrad
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2008, 01:11:01 AM »
The issue is whether the U.S.A. should be allowed to set up its missile shield on Russia's doorstep, thereby depriving it of a credible deterrent.

When Russia developed it's missile defense system, they deprived the US of a credible deterrent. So, we're justified.

However, the installation in Poland would provide very little defense from Russian missles.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Russia to deploy missiles in Kaliningrad
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2008, 01:18:06 AM »
<<When Russia developed it's missile defense system, they deprived the US of a credible deterrent. So, we're justified.>>

But it is the U.S. which is the aggressor and the threat to world peace.  They don't NEED a credible deterrent.  All they gotta do is stop attacking their neighbours.

Amianthus

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Re: Russia to deploy missiles in Kaliningrad
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2008, 01:19:42 AM »
But it is the U.S. which is the aggressor and the threat to world peace.  They don't NEED a credible deterrent.  All they gotta do is stop attacking their neighbours.

You really believe that, don't you?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

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Re: Russia to deploy missiles in Kaliningrad
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2008, 01:28:38 AM »
<<When Russia developed it's missile defense system, they deprived the US of a credible deterrent. So, we're justified.>>

But it is the U.S. which is the aggressor and the threat to world peace.  They don't NEED a credible deterrent.  All they gotta do is stop attacking their neighbours.

This isn't an attack on Russia , they are just accuseing us in a rather stupid way.

It is as if I were to say that the Citadel in Halifax was a threat to the USA because its cannons could wreck American Shipping.

Just because Halifaxian cannons don't have the range to be a threat is a mere detail I can skip over.

If the Russians want to assuse us of cutting off their second strike capability with a weapon stationed poorly to do so and tho it would not be up to doing so even  if it were stationed better ,let them.

Every engineer in the world , and anyone elese intelligent enough to understand the explanation ,can laugh at them , that is harmless isn't it?

I don't expect that Russia will actually use missles to bomb the NATO territory that it can , Russia needs those people to buy its fuel.

I also do not expect Europeans , even Poles, to invade Russia or bomb Russia or need to , if Europe has a Hitler comeing into power now I haven't heard of him yet.


Michael Tee

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Re: Russia to deploy missiles in Kaliningrad
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2008, 08:09:42 AM »
<<Hitler did not find  any more helpers from England and the US than Stalin did , what is the diffrence?>>

The difference is that Hitler was helped by Westerners who were in the ruling class and often influenced governmental and institutional actions, such as the Bank of England's freezing the reserves of the Spanish Republic during the Spanish Civil War.  The help that wealthy industrialists such as Henry Ford and others provided was instrumental in helping him to power and consolidating his rule.  It is just coming out now, for example, that IBM was instrumental in the Holocaust through the provision of state-of-the-art punch-card computers, complete with trainers and technicians, that enabled Hitler to keep track of all the Jews in German-controlled territory.

Stalin had some Western support, but it came from the rebels and outsiders of the West, not its ruling class or industrialists and the support he received was mostly moral.

Bottom line is that the industrialized Western nations gave Hitler material support that helped him in his struggle to power, and to Stalin, they gave with one hand subversion and armed intervention and with the other hand, from the rebels and outcasts of their own society, moral support.

Once again plane, you demonstrate to me a really bizarre lack of common sense and proportionality.  As in, "they gassed the Jews but we bombed Dresden" or here "Stalin had his admirers, Hitler had his admirers," as if the one balanced out the other when in reality there is no comparison.  Everything in life doesn't reduce down to neat little balances, there IS such a thing as proportionality and only a complete lack of common sense or a dyed-in-the-wool bias could keep you from recognizing it.

Plane

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Re: Russia to deploy missiles in Kaliningrad
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2008, 09:22:00 AM »
Once again plane, you demonstrate to me a really bizarre lack of common sense and proportionality.  As in, "they gassed the Jews but we bombed Dresden" or here "Stalin had his admirers, Hitler had his admirers," as if the one balanced out the other when in reality there is no comparison.  Everything in life doesn't reduce down to neat little balances, there IS such a thing as proportionality and only a complete lack of common sense or a dyed-in-the-wool bias could keep you from recognizing it.


I would not have said that, but I do say that if Ford helped Hitler he helped no more than Lenin and Stalin helped the German Army.

If IBM sold Germany the Punch card machines that the US was useing for its own census shouldm we assume that IBM was told that the punchcard system was going to be used to facilitate murders? The primary use of IBM machines is much less criminal , I don't think that the USSR has this excuse in its helping to reestablish German Airforce Artillery and tank capabilitys.The uses of Fighter Aircraft , tanks and artillery don't include anything that would not breech the Versaills treaty.

Put it in purportion as you please ,Stalin was a monster in the same league as Hitler, the evidence is availible more now than ever , but I don't blame FDR for makeing an ally of "Uncle Joe" , it was nessacery . Later on Pinochet becams another distastefull ally , much the same , he filled a need against a greater threat. The US government never made an Ally of the Natzis even though we had some fans of them here and it got discussed , if Stalin had seemed more of a threat than hitler WWII could have been played in reverse with the English Canadians and US aligning with Germany .

Fortunately for Stalin Hitler was not really as smart as he thought himself , and all efforts in that direction failed.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Russia to deploy missiles in Kaliningrad
« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2008, 09:38:03 AM »
Later on Pinochet becams another distastefull ally , much the same , he filled a need against a greater threat.

====================
Now that is truly stupid.

What threat did Salvador Allende's Chile pose to the US?
The Chilean people ELECTED Allende. The Conservative Party got maybe 25% f the vote in a three way election. Nixon and Kissinger's aid to Pinochet was treachery to a fellow OAS nation, not some sort of necessary counter to a threat.

There is no way Chile is or will ever be, a threat to the US. That is sheer bullcrap of the foulest sort.

Chile: a dagger pointed straight at the heart of Antarctica?

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."