DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Xavier_Onassis on June 01, 2010, 11:09:50 AM
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Turks decided to send aid to the Gazans, who are being systematically deprived and starved by the Israelis. They send five ships, inspect four, then a fight breaks out on the fifth, and none is allowed to land. As usual, Israel (the ones with the guns) claim that they have been cruelly victimized: yet all of the dead and most of the wounded are among the Turks and others wishing to give aid to the Palestinians.
Netanyahu's visit to the President has been canceled. It was interesting to watch the Israeli Consul here in Miami fumble around, trying to explain the cruel "victimization" of the unfortunate armed commandos.
As a rule, it has historically been a really bad idea to annoy the Turks. And there are over 50 million of them.
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Gotta love the MSM coverage, though. 1% on the massacre itself, 99% on the reaction. One CNN caption referred to reaction to "the battle" on the refugee ships, oddly reminiscent of Lt. Calley, after lawyering up, invariably referring, not to My Lai, not to the massacre, but to "the Battle of My Lai." Some fucking battle - - unarmed Turkish relief providers versus heavily armed Israeli commandos.
The "reaction" was hilarious too - - very even-handed. On the one hand, mobs of Turks or Arabs jumping up and down and screaming incoherently in the streets, on the other hand, well-dressed, university-educated Israelis or their spokespeople speaking near-perfect English and speaking about rights of self-defence (self-defence in committing an act of piracy on the high seas!) and "terrorism" - - the story became the reaction, and not only the crime but the victims and their families were buried in an avalanche of "reaction" stories.
You gotta hand it to the Jews - - we have the best damned PR machine that money can buy. And the fucking morons that constitute the American public will eat right out of its hand time after time after time after time. If they could swallow the Gaza massacres without a hiccup, this little misunderstanding will go down like a pina colada on a hot day. Wanna bet what the net consequences to Israel will be for this cold-blooded massacre of foreign aid workers? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The Great Satan and the Little Satan, BFF.
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I agree that the Israelis seem to win the propaganda war, even when the death toll disparity between the two sides is as unequal as it was in the last Gaza invasion. It turns out that the arms used by the Turks were grabbed away from the Israelis. Otherwise, it was slingshots and fisticuffs.
Nonetheless, history has proven that Turks are people is it singularly unwise to piss off. And there are rather a lot of them.
The very least that they should have done was to deliver the four ships of aid that passed inspection.
This happened on the high seas, by the way, where boarding a ship without consent is basically piracy.
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"history has proven that Turks are people is it singularly unwise to piss off"
This should be good. People with long curved knives fighting people with long curved noses.
I love me some drones.
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I do not believe that Turkish soldiers arm themselves with scimitars anymore, but in all recent engagements, they have proven that they are soldiers one would be unwise to oppose. As for the Israelis, they are not required to have long curved noses, but some do. I doubt that the two countries will come to blows, as there is no common border, and neither has territorial designs on the other.
But this was most unwise on the part of the Israelis. Boarding an unwilling ship on the high seas is basically piracy. The Israelis claim that they provide all that the Gazans need to survive, but "survive" is about it. Gaza is the sixth most densely populated place on Earth, after Macao, Monaco, Singapore, Hong Kong and Gibraltar, all of which have people living in high rises. As a result of this, the Egyptians have opened the gates at Rafah to Egypt for a while, probably with the State Dept's tacit approval that the US will not cut aid to Egypt in retaliation.
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XO you are way behind the times. The Israeli/Turk relationship had soured greatly long before this incident. The Turks have cozied up to Iran more recently and it is greatly effecting the relationship Turkey has with Israel, the United States, and probably NATO. The Turks will regret this move because Iran is going down hard and people are not going to forget who cozied up to an Iran reduced to ashes. The ships being sent were warned time and time again to not attempt to cross the blockade. This is nothing but a PR move on the part of the IslamoNazis, their sympathizers, and other anti-semetic forces. Israel should next time warn again and if the warnings go unheeded Israel should blow up and sink the first ship trying to cross the blockade. The IslamoNazis only understand one thing....brute force. I say sink the next ship full of halfwits that do not heed repeated warnings.
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<<Israel should next time warn again and if the warnings go unheeded Israel should blow up and sink the first ship trying to cross the blockade. >>
Turkey, a NATO member, has warned Israel that the next Turkish humanitarian aid ship will sail with a Turkish naval escort. To blow up and sink the aid ship will require that the Israeli warships also have to deal with the Turkish naval escort.
I notice the U.S.A., the great "protector" of the Jews, used its veto power to stop the UN Security Council from censuring the State of Israel, let alone from taking any punitive action against it. The whole point of the Security Council was to provide a forum where international disputes like this one could be ironed out through discussion rather than by resorting to force. But the U.S. in its wisdom decides to frustrate the very purposes for which the UN came into existence, to ensure that no solutions other than violence are in the cards.
Short-sighted and stupid pursuit of Jewish votes and money has trapped American legislators (and even the Jewish state which depends upon them for support) in a cycle of pointless violence, no end in sight. WTF is wrong with these people?
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the next Turkish humanitarian aid ship will sail with a Turkish naval escort.
There is a blockade....if Turkey wants to go to war over the blockade....so be it.
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I notice the U.S.A., the great "protector" of the Jews, used its veto power to stop the UN Security Council from censuring the State of Israel, let alone from taking any punitive action against it.
Hmmm. Just like France and Germany stated they would use their veto when the US wanted to bring up Iraq prior to the Iraq war.
What's good for goose, after all.
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<<Hmmm. Just like France and Germany stated they would use their veto when the US wanted to bring up Iraq prior to the Iraq war.>>
No, not just like it at all.
When the U.S. wanted to get Security Council authorization for the use of force against Iraq, they were told by France at least (I'm not sure if the Security Council seats had been increased at that time) and probably others as well, that they wouldn't go along. Accordingly, the U.S. never brought its motion for use of force before the Security Council. The U.S. frustrated the founding principles of the UN (peaceful discussion and resolution as an alternative to use of force) by not bringing their motion forward, where the parties could at least have publicly debated the need for use of force.
In the case of this latest Israeli massacre, there was actual exercise of a veto by the U.S.., this time not to stifle debate, but to stifle remedial action to an atrocity, again frustrating the founding principles of the UN, but this time in a totally different way. Both times promoting violence rather than debate as a solution to differences that arise between nations. Consistent only in American promotion of the use of force as an alternative to peaceful resolution.
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Yeah, and I'm sure the then-recent oil contract France had signed with Saddam had nothing to do with it...
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There is a blockade....if Turkey wants to go to war over the blockade....so be it.
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The Turkish government was elected by the Turkish people. Turkey is a democracy. The people of Turkey have far less patience with Israeli cruelty than the Turkish government.
You seem to believe every morsel of bullcrap the Israelis feed you. The Israelis screwed up bigtime here.
There is a distinct possibility that while all this flap is going on over innocuous food and building supplies, the makings of some serious rockets are crossing into Gaza from Egypt.
The blockade has no legal standing. No one has any right to board an unwilling ship on the high seas.
You seem to want a war with a billion and a half Muslims over the delivery of food and building supplies. That is idiocy. The Israelis are stupid, but you seem intent on trying for the imbecility of Moe, Shemp, Larry and Curly Joe all rolled into one.
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No one has any right to board an unwilling ship on the high seas.
Nice to know that Pirates, of all stripes, have someone on their side
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<<Yeah, and I'm sure the then-recent oil contract France had signed with Saddam had nothing to do with it...>>
Yeah, oil can only motivate the French and other lesser breeds, unlike the Americans who NEVER would base their policies on it.
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I hope no one got any whiplash from that deflection effort
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Nice to know that Pirates, of all stripes, have someone on their side
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I am pretty sure that the Israeli commandos in question do not identify with Jean LaFitte, Blackbeard, or the current Somali pirates. They no doubt consider themselves to the Chosen Pirates of Elohim/Adonai/Jehovah or perhaps they just like to stomp the Hell out of others. Perhaps they are not even the sort of guys that enjoy saying Arrrrrrrr! or having their timbers shivered.
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I'm also pretty sure there were armed Islamic Jihadists on those floatillas, that had no presence other than facilitate conflict with Israeli commandos
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I'm also pretty sure there were armed Islamic Jihadists on those floatillas, that had no presence other than facilitate conflict with Israeli commandos
In which case sending the commandos was a singularly BAD idea. Now see what has happened: the Egyptians have opened the border at Raffah, and Israeli looks like sh*t and fell in it.
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Judgement call on the part of the Israelis. Point being, this was more than just some simple "humanitarian" mission, since even you have conceded the presence of these armed Jihadists. My guess is that minus the armed Arab militants on board, there'd have been no skirmish, no bloodshed, no death.
As much as the Palestinians might want such, dare I say, "obviously" not what the Jihadists want.
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(http://images.onset.freedom.com/ocregister/gallery/l3eafy-b78647709z.120100602091321000givolhvd.1.jpg)
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The blockade has no legal standing. No one has any right to board an unwilling ship on the high seas.
Yeah sure.....
Israel's Actions: Entirely Lawful
By Dr. Alan M. Dershowitz
Jun 2nd, 2010
While the international community has, once again, ganged up on Israel, one thing is for certain: the legality of Israel's actions in stopping the Gaza flotilla is not open to question. What Israel did was entirely consistent with both international and domestic law. In order to understand why Israel acted within its rights, the complex events at sea must be deconstructed:
First, there is the Israeli blockade of Gaza, which included a naval blockade. Recall that when Israel ended its occupation of Gaza, it did not impose a blockade. Indeed it left behind agricultural facilities in the hope that the newly liberated Gaza Strip would become a peaceful and productive area. Instead Hamas seized control over Gaza and engaged in acts of warfare against Israel. These acts of warfare featured anti-personnel rockets, nearly 10,000 of them, directed at Israeli civilians. This was not only an act of warfare, it was a war crime. Israel responded to the rockets by declaring a blockade, the purpose of which was to assure that no rockets, or other material that could be used for making war against Israeli civilians, was permitted into Gaza. Israel allowed humanitarian aid through its checkpoints. Egypt as well participated in the blockade. There was never a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, merely a shortage of certain goods that would end if the rocket attacks ended.
The legality of blockades as a response to acts of war is not subject to serious doubt. When the United States blockaded Cuba during the missile crisis, the State Department issued an opinion declaring the blockade to be lawful. This, despite the fact that Cuba had not engaged in any act of belligerency against the United States. Other nations have similarly enforced naval blockades to assure their own security.
The second issue is whether it is lawful to enforce a legal blockade in international waters. Again, law and practice are clear. If there is no doubt that the offending ships have made a firm determination to break the blockade, then the blockade may be enforced before the offending ships cross the line into domestic waters. Again the United States and other western countries have frequently boarded ships at high sea in order to assure their security.
Third, were those on board the flotilla innocent non-combatants or did they lose that status once they agreed to engage in the military act of breaking the blockade? Let there be no mistake about the purpose of this flotilla. It was decidedly not to provide humanitarian aid to the residents of Gaza, but rather the break the entirely lawful Israeli military blockade. The proof lies in the fact that both Israel and Egypt offered to have all the food, medicine and other humanitarian goods sent to Gaza, if the boats agreed to land in an Israeli or Egyptian port. That humanitarian offer was soundly rejected by the leaders of the flotilla who publicly announced:
"This mission is not about delivering humanitarian supplies, it?' about breaking Israel?s siege on 1.5 million Palestinians". (AFP May 27, 2010.)
The act of breaking a military siege is itself a military act, and those knowingly participating in such military action put in doubt their status as non-combatants.
It is a close question whether "civilians" who agree too participate in the breaking of a military blockade have become combatants. They are certainly something different than pure, innocent civilians, and perhaps they are also somewhat different from pure armed combatants. They fit uncomfortably onto the continuum of civilianality that has come to characterize asymmetrical warfare.
Finally, we come to the issue of the right of self defense engaged in by Israeli soldiers who were attacked by activists on the boat. There can be little doubt that the moment any person on the boat picked up a weapon and began to attack Israeli soldiers boarding the vessel, they lost their status as innocent civilians. Even if that were not the case, under ordinary civilian rules of self defense, every Israeli soldier had the right to protect himself and his colleagues from attack by knife and pipe wielding assailants. Less there be any doubt that Israeli soldiers were under attack, simply view the accompanying video and watch, as so-called peaceful "activists" repeatedly pummel Israeli soldiers with metal rods. Every individual has the right to repel such attacks by the use of lethal force, especially when the soldiers were so outnumbered on the deck of the ship. Recall that Israel's rules of engagement required its soldiers to fire only paintballs unless their lives were in danger. Would any country in the world deny its soldiers the right of self defense under comparable circumstances?
Notwithstanding the legality of Israel's actions, the international community has, as usual, denounced the Jewish state. In doing so, Israel's critics have failed to pinpoint precisely what Israel did that allegedly violates international law. Some have wrongly focused on the blockade itself. Others have erroneously pointed to the location of the boarding in international waters. Most have simply pointed to the deaths of so-called peace activists, though these deaths appear to be the result of lawful acts of self-defense. None of these factors alone warrant condemnation, but the end result surely deserves scrutiny by Israeli policy makers. There can be little doubt that the mission was a failure, as judged by its results. It is important, however, to distinguish between faulty policies on the one hand, and alleged violations of international law on the other hand. Only the latter would warrant international intervention, and the case has simply not been made that Israel violated international law.
http://frontpagemag.com/2010/06/02/israels-actions-entirely-lawful-2/ (http://frontpagemag.com/2010/06/02/israels-actions-entirely-lawful-2/)
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Screw Dershowitz. He is a shill, a walking Debkafile.
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I don't know what the big surprise is here. Rightly or wrongly, everybody should know by now that if you rocket Israel they'll send in the tanks. If you ignore their warnings about breaking a blockade they'll send in their Seals. If you f___ with them they'll f___ you back. It's real simple. They're not shy about any of this.
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And that is precisely why they are doomed to another 60 years of conflict.
I am just tired of these assholes doing it on MY nickle.
Most Americans have as much to do with Palisrael as they do with Transdinestria. Let 'em fling rocks at each other.
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Xo does have a small leg to stand on here. Small, but appropriate. Israel has enough force and hardware, that they can largely take care of themselves. Let our alliance with them be largely trade oriented, vs any subsidizing of them. If they wish to purchase military arms and training from us, no problem, and vice versa.
If someone does try to go to war with them, THEN we would do what we'd do for any other allie, we support them, as long as the provocation to war wasn't completely ethically & morally out of line.
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What's that you say?? sirs conceded a point, albeit a small one?? But....but....he NEVER concedes anything. Or so we're told ;)
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I don't see why the US needs to be an ally of Israel, either. Let them defend their own damn selves. They are too cocky and prone to bullying everyone else.
I would not think that they need to me any greater ally than Malta or Slovakia. They aren't Canada, after all. Israel has never joined the US in any of its excessive military adventures. They DID teach the Salvadorean and Argentine generals how to torture people for a spell, though.
I guarantee you, that if the US decided to end one penny of aid, AIPAC, the Israeli Lobby would accuse the US of building another Auschwitz.
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Your unsubstantiated opinion is duely noted. Especially as it relates to democratically free countries that warrant support and our alliance in time of war, vs those that aren't
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What happened on the flotilla that wasn't planned by the organisers of the flotilla?
Theater?
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The Jihadists got what they wanted
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<<Screw Dershowitz. He is a shill, a walking Debkafile.>>
Tell me about it. In addition to his hilarious "The U.S. blockade of Cuba had to be lawful because the State Department said it was," the lying sack of shit tells us that: <<There was never a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, merely a shortage of certain goods that would end if the rocket attacks ended.>> Never mind the total illegality of blockading an entire civilian population to punish them for the actions of armed groups among them, here are some real-world accounts of the actual effects of Israel's criminal blockade of Gaza's population, the majority of whom are children:
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/suffocating-gaza-israeli-blockades-effects-palestinians-2010-06-01 (http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/suffocating-gaza-israeli-blockades-effects-palestinians-2010-06-01)
http://mlyon01.wordpress.com/2009/01/05/effects-of-israeli-blockade-of-gaza/ (http://mlyon01.wordpress.com/2009/01/05/effects-of-israeli-blockade-of-gaza/)
http://www.palestinechronicle.com/news.php?id=28d34f486ac0735c23020628f904f088&mode=details (http://www.palestinechronicle.com/news.php?id=28d34f486ac0735c23020628f904f088&mode=details)
and there are dozens more where those came from.
What could Dershowitz have hoped to gain by such a narrow, legalistic and above all obviously bullshit "defence" of the indefensible? A bunch of crude legalistic nonsense that even if accepted could only end in discrediting not just Dershowitz but the law itself?
Because if anyone were to accept that the law permits a state power to blockade a million and a half people, mostly children, to starve them, to deny them medical attention and drugs, then people could only conclude that the law that permits this oppression is cruel and unworthy of any respect. That those who use the law to justify such actions are conscienceless and unprincipled. And that those who would hide behind such a law to justify their own barbarism and inhumanity are still criminals whether or not the law says about it.
At the end of the day, with all the blathering about the "thugs" who attacked the Israeli sailors - - as they conducted an illegal act of piracy in support of an illegal blockade, no less!!! - - what the world sees are humanitarian workers bringing aid to an illegally blockaded population, gunned down and killed by armed force, and the news media barred from the scene as the pirated ship is towed to a closed port. Nine or more unarmed relief workers shot to death, dozens more wounded, and their murderers screaming that they, the killers, are the true victims.
Nobody is buying. Not this time.
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Tee must have missed the part where food and aide are allowed thru
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Israel has a right to blockade any entity that harbours within it those who use, and launch from that entity, weapons of war against its, Israel's, civilian population, military, and infrastructure. Hamas, by declaring its aim as the destruction of Israel puts itself, and the population of Gaza, in the position of being blockaded.
BSB
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"Across predominantly Muslim nations, there is little enthusiasm for the extremist Islamic organizations Hamas and Hezbollah, although there are pockets of support for both groups, especially in the Middle East..."
http://pewglobal.org/2010/02/04/mixed-views-of-hamas-and-hezbollah-in-largely-muslim-nations/ (http://pewglobal.org/2010/02/04/mixed-views-of-hamas-and-hezbollah-in-largely-muslim-nations/)
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"CAN ISRAEL IMPOSE A NAVAL BLOCKADE ON GAZA?
Yes it can, according to the law of blockade which was derived from customary international law and codified in the 1909 Declaration of London. It was updated in 1994 in a legally recognized document..."
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65133D20100602 (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65133D20100602)
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CAN ISRAEL IMPOSE A NAVAL BLOCKADE ON GAZA?
No, it can't. Not in accordance with international law, says Kevin Jon Heller, a senior lecturer in law at the Melbourne Law School of the University of Melbourne (Australia.)
http://opiniojuris.org/author/kevinjonheller/ (http://opiniojuris.org/author/kevinjonheller/)
This kind of legalistic debate is obviously going to get mired in a "he-sez-she-sez" kind of deadlock, inevitable when both sides lawyer up and start slinging obscure Conventions, Treaties and rulings around the room.
To cut through the bullshit, let's say that I could find a law making it perfectly legal to take some kind of action that would cause enormous amounts of human suffering to innocent children (and many, if not most, of Gaza's inhabitants are, in fact, children) and I then proceeded to take that action, using my legal privileges to their fullest extent.
Suppose then that some humanitarians attempt to relieve the human suffering that I am (legally) inflicting on the millions, by bringing food, medical supplies and building materials previously blockaded directly to the starving people and I respond by killing a dozen of the humanitarian aid workers and seizing their ships. Naturally, I call them "terrorists." Naturally, I complain that their real intentions had nothing to do with the relief of suffering, but were nothing less than the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state. Naturally, I find lawyers (anyone got John Yoo's phone no. handy?) who will write legal opinions completely exonerating anything and everything that I have ever done, and condemning as criminal and illegal everything that the victims of the blockade and those who would help them have ever done..
At the end of the day, the children and families of Gaza are still deprived of food, soap, building materials to rebuild their bombed-out homes, medicine, medical equipment, etc., the people who tried to relieve the siege have been murdered by their attackers, and the killers are screaming about how they have been "victimized" by the women and children of Gaza and those who tried to relieve their plight. Surreal? Bizarre?
All the legal opinions in the world are just words on paper. They don't mean shit when all they refer to are "rights" and "obligations" and human suffering is never factored in. Each side will pervert the meaning of the words as its interests demand, and in the end, the only "rights" that mean fuck-all are those that can be enforced or supported at the end of a loaded gun. Right now the Jews are clearly on top. If and when the tide turns, and what has to happen will happen, I only hope I don't hear any screaming from their side as to how "unfair!" and "unlawful!" it all is. Because they set the standard for "unfair!" and "unlawful!"
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I agree with this totally. Lawyers will ALWAYS find exceptions, and the opposing lawyers will find exceptions to the exceptions, and when they run out of exceptions, they will appeal to the courts to create new exceptions to the exceptions to the exceptions.
Dropping goons onto an unarmed ship in international waters in the dead of night is more like something that the Gestapo would do than any civilized nation.
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Some folks just can't help themselves in trying to make reference to anything Hilter/Nazi, to anything they don't agree with. Regardless of how asanine a leap it is :-\
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Midnight raids were a characteristic of the Gestapo. Do you deny this?
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Midnight raids are characteristic of those who could successfully perform them, much like the U.S. does now, with their use of night vision equipment. That doesn't makes us Gestapo. It makes the attempt to equate the 2, however, idiotic
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"Suppose then that some humanitarians attempt to relieve the human suffering..."
As you would say, hilarious.
To paraphrase Jon Stewart, they were clubbing the Israelis because they thought they were frogman shaped pinatas being lowered down on a string.
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since "midnight raids" have gone on for centuries
do the midnight raids before Nazi Germany need
to be called Pre-Hitler-like raids?
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Forget the Gestapo part.
The asshole Israeli commandos deserved to get the crap beaten out of them. If the people on board were any good at this, they would have beaten the last turd out of each and every one of these goons.
Screw Netanyahu and screw Israel. This was wrong and stupid from any point of view. Now the Egyptian border has been opened. That is a far greater danger than all the knives and slingshots on that boat.
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(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/6-1-10peaceRGB120100602082151.jpg)
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The only "goons" involved were the fake humanitarians with chains, clubs, and stun grenades.
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<<To paraphrase Jon Stewart, they were clubbing the Israelis because they thought they were frogman shaped pinatas being lowered down on a string.>>
The witnesses on the ship say that the Israelis were clubbed after the shooting had started. Also that the shooting continued after the passengers were lying face down on the deck.
The Israelis released exactly one minute of videotape from the whole episode and tightly controlled the outflow of news from the eye-witnesses on board. You heard, in effect, only the Israeli version. And the Israelis aren't releasing any more than that one minute's worth of tape.
So it's quite possible that the Israelis sprayed the decks with gunfire, dropped down onto the deck from the helicopter and were attacked in the process, then killed more aid workers in response to the attacks. One minute of videotape was all they released. Then, I think later, another minute. They took control of the story from the moment they attacked the aid ship, and then their bullshit machine went into full-force operation.
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Riiiiiight.....because they had a plethora of prior boats to perfect that technique. Oh wait.
So, possible?, yea. Probable?, extremely unlikely. Will our Sun go Supernova sometime this week? Possible, yea. Probable?, extremely unlikely
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MT, I'm with you on the destruction of Gaza but on this I think Israel has a good case. I don't believe this was a humanitarian effort for one second. This was a lets put Israel in a bad spot effort.
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In the sense that Gandhi's March to the Sea and his attempt to get salt out of sea water wasn't really an attempt to put salt on anyone's table, but an effort to dramatize the injustice of the British salt tax and the larger injustice of British rule, you are correct to state that the real purpose of the flotilla was to make Israel look bad.
I am opposed to the blockade of Gaza, and I applaud all protests and all attempts to dramatize the injustice of it all. Why shouldn't the opponents of the blockade do what they can to bring international pressure on Israel to end it, especially if that pressure takes the form of humanitarian relief? It's like killing two birds with one stone - - relief is sent, Israel looks bad whatever they do (because the underlying cause of the flotilla, the blockade, is inherently bad) and the international pressure to end the blockade ratchets up. How is any of this bad?
The Israeli reaction was worse than anyone could have expected. The deaths of the aid workers was a tragedy but one that underscored in a way that ten thousand arguments couldn't the basic lack of humanity and lack of respect for international public opinion that has come to characterize the right-wing Likud Party presently in power in Israel. You could not pay a publicist enough money to make that point as graphically and as unmistakably as the Netanyahu government and Netanyahu himself have done. For every impassioned pro-Israel post that this generates in the blogosphere, there are thousands and maybe tens of thousands of ordinary human beings all over the globe just stunned and shocked by the brutality of it all, seeing for maybe the first time the true face of the Israeli fanatics determined to cash in on the promise of land that they claim their God made to them thousands of years ago from a burning bush.
Were they (the aid workers) right? Were they wrong? Was the naval blockade legal? Was it illegal? These questions are of distinctly secondary importance now. The reaction to the slaughter of the aid workers is visceral - - it tells people something about the Israeli cause that is more important than, is it lawful? It's a crime so stark in its implications ("these people KILLED those who brought food to the starving!!!") that all the legalities and legal wrangling just fade into the background. Because in reality, when all the motivations and legalities of the aid workers have been analyzed and dissected a million different ways, that is EXACTLY what happened: people bringing food to the starving were assaulted and murdered for their "crime." Ain't gonna sit well on the world stage.
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Gotta love this constant mutation of the facts. Especially with how it's been speculated to have gone down, per Tee's deductive analysis. Yea, they're gonna let all the rest of the boats thru, then "spray" the last boat with gunfire, and jump down on it, because.....well, just because they're that evil. They quickly swap from their automatic weapons, to paintballs as they descend on the last boat, so as not to .....well, they're just that nefarious. They then execute more people with their paintguns, after they start getting beaten, from all the folks, who were everywhere on the boat, yet not hit with any of the gunfire spray prior to boarding because.....well, because they're just that bad a shot.
Yea, that makes so much more sense, then what was reported, of all the prior ships being let thru with their aid and humanitarian materials, and only had issues with the last boat, as when the 1st Israeli came down, he was attacked, and his weapons taken, and used against futher Israelis, necessistating a more lethal defense, than only took 9 of the attackers' lives, on a boat of upwards of a hundred. Yea, that doesn't make any sense at all
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("these people KILLED those who brought food to the starving!!!")
Is anyone allowed to beat or shoot at police while they are being arrested? Or only if the police stop you while you are on your way to volunteer your time to a charity?
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<<Is anyone allowed to beat or shoot at police while they are being arrested? Or only if the police stop you while you are on your way to volunteer your time to a charity?>>
No, nobody is allowed to beat or shoot at police for any reason. (Let's forget for the moment to ask who appointed the Israel Defence Force as the police of the high seas or even as the police of Gaza. They're "the police," fine.)
So the real villains of the story are the aid workers, just as Netanyahu says. They're the bad guys. They wanted to bring food to the starving and medical supplies to the sick, and then they compounded their "crime" by beating up the very guys (the "police") who were blockading the Gazans and preventing them from getting the food and the medical supplies in the first place. Bad, bad, bad aid workers. The Israelis, who killed them while storming their ship, are the good guys.
BTW, does anyone know any "police" who stand at the shipping gates of hospitals and turn away shipments of medical equipment and supplies? Does anyone know any "police" who block the doors of sick people's houses so they can't get out to see their doctors and keep 'em locked in till they die? Does anyone know any cops who block supermarket doors and turn away people who desperately want to buy food? Just askin, because this "beating the police" analogy does seem kind of outrageous on its face, but who knows?
This is the problem with conservatives. No common sense. None whatsoever. Heads stuck so far up their own ass that they can really believe a lying shit like Netanyahu. If the aid workers were the bad guys and the Israelis were the good guys, what is all the fuss about? Why are the Egyptians opening up the Gaza border? Why are the Israelis now rushing to show that they too are opening up the Gaza border? What is it exactly that they are now trying to make amends for?
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This is the problem with conservatives. No common sense. None whatsoever.
:D Ahhhhh, I needed a good laugh, coming from that pot
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BTW, does anyone know any "police" who stand at the shipping gates of hospitals and turn away shipments of medical equipment and supplies?
I know of police that will search for weapons before allowing medical equipment and supplies to pass through.
Pull up to a hospital in a very high crime neighborhood with a big ol' truck, and see if you don't get inspected by the security guards before you're let through...
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We are not talking inspection, we are talking BLOCKADE.
Did you read even one of the accounts of the blockade that I linked to? Food is not getting in, medical supplies and equipment are not getting in, material to rebuild the bombed-out hospital is not getting in.
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Did you read even one of the accounts of the blockade that I linked to? Food is not getting in, medical supplies and equipment are not getting in, material to rebuild the bombed-out hospital is not getting in.
Henny disagrees with you. Facts seem to disagree with you as well. What happened to the relief supplies on the first 4 ships that were allowed through in this convoy?
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We are not talking inspection, we are talking BLOCKADE.
And the blockade is largely blockading weapon grade stuff. The rest ususally passes inspection, and allowed in, much like the 1st set of ships in this flotilla. It's not some wall, where nothing is allowed thru. 15,000 tons of humanitarian aid flows into Gaza each week, and that the blockade is designed to stop Hamas from building or acquiring arms
I realize Tee, your perverse aversion to responding to my substantive points, but your ignorance of the facts, doesn't lessen them, in any way.
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More proof this is all nothing but an IslamoNazi PR Stunt!
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Media%20Logos/3afe0b5c.jpg)
Hamas refusing to allow flotilla aid into Gaza: Israel
Wed Jun 2, 1:20 pm ET
JERUSALEM (AFP) The Palestinian Islamist movement Hamas ruling Gaza is not allowing Israel to deliver the aid brought by activists in a flotilla seized earlier this week, the Israeli military said on Wednesday.
Israel has filled 20 trucks with cargo from the captured ships, mostly medical supplies, clothes, blankets and toys, but has not been able to take them into the territory, military spokeswoman Avital Leibovitz told reporters.
"Unfortunately at this point the Palestinians are not willing to accept the cargo so the trucks that are loaded are not entering the Gaza Strip," she said.
"Our understanding is that Hamas is actually stopping the entrance of this humanitarian aid," she added.
Hamas government spokesman Taher al-Nunu declined to comment on the allegations but confirmed the Palestinian authorities in Gaza had not received any supplies.
"The priority now is to release those who were kidnapped and return them, the martyrs and the wounded to their own countries," Nunu said, referring to the nearly 700 activists on board the ships, nine of whom were killed in an Israeli raid on Monday.
He added that the delivery of the aid should be coordinated with Turkey, which supplied much of the 10,000 tonnes of building and other supplies organisers said were on the ships.
Israel had earlier said all of the more than 600 activists who had been detained were being deported, including the majority of those wounded.
Hamas social affairs minister Ahmad al-Kurd, meanwhile, told reporters that if the aid were to enter it would have to be brought in "without anything being stolen from the activists, and without any exceptions.
"This includes the prefabricated homes, the cement, the iron and the electric generators," he said.
But the Israeli military said it could not refill the trucks with more cargo until it delivered the first shipment of supplies.
The military said no weapons were found aboard the ships aside from knives, wooden batons and metal rods it says the activists used to ambush the naval commandos that stormed one of the ships, wounding six of them.
"There was nothing illegal and nothing that does not enter on a regular basis," Leibovitz said, adding that inspectors had not yet come across any cement.
Egypt and Israel largely sealed their borders with Gaza after the capture of an Israeli soldier by Hamas and other Palestinian militants in 2006 and have only allowed in limited amounts of basic goods since Hamas seized power in June 2007.
Israel has recently started allowing in limited amounts of building materials for UN projects, but the closures have severely hindered reconstruction efforts following a devastating 2008-2009 Gaza war.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100602/wl_mideast_afp/israelconflictgazahamasaid (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100602/wl_mideast_afp/israelconflictgazahamasaid)
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<<Henny disagrees with you. Facts seem to disagree with you as well.>>
Maybe you and Henny should read Juan Cole's summary of reports from various international health organizations, including both UNICEF and WHO, which clearly indicates the existence of rampant child malnutrition in Gaza due to the blockade. Here's the link: http://www.juancole.com/2010/01/world-health-agencies-condemn-israeli.html
Those are FACTS, and they do NOT disagree with me.
<<What happened to the relief supplies on the first 4 ships . . . ?>>
You can bet your ass that with great fanfare and publicity, the Zio-Nazis will distribute them to the people of Gaza as proof of their "humanitarianism," especially in the wake of this latest massacre. But what does that really prove?
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The aid came from Turkey and the Turks are the ones who should be distributing it. If the Israelis load it onto their trucks, it will be distributed as they see fit - - i.e., the lion's share to their collaborators (Fatah,) the least possible amount they can get away with to Hamas and Hamas supporters, who are the majority of the population. Fuck dat. The Turks didn't load those ships to reward traitors and collaborators and punish the true Palestinian Resistance. Why let the Jews use the humanitarian relief supplies to reward their friends and punish their enemies?
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Facts or proof of how they're distributing it, would be helpful to your allegation. Without it, it's likely going to go to the Palestinians, period, and they'll distribute it as THEY see fit
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More than 1 million tons of humanitarian supplies have been allowed into Gaza
since the Israeli military operation ended in January 2009, almost a ton of aid
for each man, woman and child in Gaza.
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<<More than 1 million tons of humanitarian supplies have been allowed into Gaza
since the Israeli military operation ended in January 2009, almost a ton of aid
for each man, woman and child in Gaza.>>
And you BELIEVE that shit? So how come the WHO and UNICEF report extensive child malnutrition due to the blockade, as do other aid organizations as well?
It's probably just one more Zio-Nazi lie. Or else the food component is low enough that there just isn't enough there in that figure to feed the children of Gaza properly. Either way, sources a helluva lot more credible than the Zio-Nazi bullshit machine, and many of them, report extensive child malnutrition in Gaza, and I believe it. Why would the Turks send the aid relief flotilla to Gaza if there were no need for it? They're allies of Israel. Or at least, they were, prior to the massacre.
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Michael come on...it is very clear this is a PR stunt....the flotilla was and is invited to dock at Ashdod port, to unload their cargo and transfer it to Gaza, after a security check, either via the Israeli authorities or via the humanitarian organizations.
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oh and by the way....4 rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel in the last 24 hours...I am sure if Mexico was shooting hundreds of rockets over the last couple of years into Arizona and New Mexico the US would show as much restraint as Israel has. ::)
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If we were to apply's Tee's reasoned "logic", we could claim that the malnutrition is largely caused by the Hamas leaders storing and using food sources for their leaders and militants, while the peons get scraps...if that. Best of both worlds, their fighters stay fresh and they can keep up the PR black eye to Israel Same amount of "logic", and minus any evidence as the so called "massacre"
Right?
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The Gaza Flotilla Decoy for Iranian Missiles to Hezbollah?
By Walid Phares
(http://counterterrorismblog.org/Hamas%201.jpg)
"De-Blockading" Hamas?
At first glance, the takeover by the Israeli Navy of the "humanitarian flotilla" heading towards Gaza is just one more of the disputed crises between Israel and its foes. As in all previous incidents, the spiral of accusations will eventually reach bottom. While media attention will highlight the tactical events?seizure of the ships, rules of engagement, who fired first, the legal location of the incident and the other dramatic details, the rapidly expanding debate will soon reach the strategic intent of the "flotilla." After all the governments involved issue their condemnations and warnings in all directions, after the UN issues a statement and international forums mobilize to indict their predictably targeted foe,in this case Israel, the question unavoidably will be: why is there a flotilla heading towards a military zone, and what is the ultimate goal of the operation?
According to the organizers of the "Free Gaza" network which enjoys the support of Hamas and its backers in Damascus and Tehran but also of governments considered in the West as "mainstream" such as the AKP of Turkey and the oil rich Qatar, this vast coalition of regimes and organizations assert that the aim of the 700 militants and activists was to pierce the encirclement of Gaza and lift the naval blockade of the enclave. Hence the actual goal of the humanitarian effort is to relieve Hamas, not just to ensure aid to the civilians trapped in the strip. For if aid and comfort was the sole objective of the operation, the material would have been calmly handed to the United Nations' agencies which would have forwarded it to the network of humanitarian associations and NGOs inside the afflicted zone. Either Egypt or Israel would have checked it and would have, under international obligation, sent it across the cease fire lines.
But the organizers of the flotilla, a vast coalition supporting the Jihadist organization based in Gaza, aimed clearly at a geopolitical gain: open a maritime path for Hamas to receive strategic support from the outside and solidify its grip over the enclave. Spokespersons for the "flotilla" would obviously deny the long term goal and focus on the humanitarian stated agenda. But had the architects of the initiative added a global plan to solve the crisis in Gaza, one would have given credit to the humanitarian version of the story. From Ankara to Doha, from Damascus to Tehran, policy planners are aiming at reaching "their piece" of Palestine, ironically at the expense of the Palestinian national authority.
Indeed, beyond the evaluation on tactical or legal grounds and who should be blamed, the picture on the strategic level is much more ominous. The launching of the "flotilla" timed up with two major developments, one by the moderates in the region backed by the United States and the international community and the other by the radicals in the region led by Iran and Syria. After repeated attempts to bring Israelis and Palestinians back to the table of negotiations over the past few months, Washington was close to achieving that goal with the help of moderate Arab governments and the European Union. The Palestinian Authority and the Israeli government were on their way to a sit down "directly or indirectly" to proceed at an advanced stage in the process. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and other players were blessing the move cautiously. But this process was moving outside the control of Iran and Syria and their protege's in Gaza.
Hence sending activists via high seas to break the encirclement of Hamas was part of collapsing US and international efforts to resume the peace talks. Indeed as we all know, once the radicals trigger (and organize) a wave of "Jihadism" in the media and streets, no moderate will show up for discussions. And that's what is happening as of today: a spiraling crumbling of the latest chance for peace talks.
This is not new: It is a modified repeat of previous manipulated incidents: The Hezbollah War in 2006, the Hamas coup of 2007, the Gaza war in 2008 and many similar successful maneuvers in the 1990s: obstructing the peace process by using militants wearing peace jackets. But the more ominous development this flotilla is camouflaging is a real land fleet bringing missiles and advanced weapons to Hezbollah from Syria to the Bekaa Valley.
Over the past weeks reports have abounded about Iranian long-range missiles shipped via Syria to Hezbollah and satellite images have shown terror bases in the vicinity of Damascus growing under Baathist protection. As soon as the attention of the international community began to focus on the flow of strategic weapons to Hezbollah, the "brotherhood of regimes" unleashed the Gaza flotilla across the Mediterranean. Seasoned geopolitical experts would rationally link the move to create an incident off the coasts of Gaza with the move to equipping Hezbollah with lethal missiles.
In the end we're looking at two flotillas, the maritime one in the south being only a decoy for the land fleet to achieve its goal of war preparations in the north.
http://counterterrorismblog.org/ (http://counterterrorismblog.org/)
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"....4 rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel in the last 24 hours."
Get you get any dumber?
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BTW, does anyone know any "police" who stand at the shipping gates of hospitals and turn away shipments of medical equipment and supplies?
Who says they were going to do that?
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http://www.haaretz.com/news/poll-10-of-palestinian-children-have-lasting-malnutrition-effects-1.217826 (http://www.haaretz.com/news/poll-10-of-palestinian-children-have-lasting-malnutrition-effects-1.217826)
About 10 percent of Palestinian children suffer permanent effects from malnutrition, according to a survey published Wednesday, a result of widespread poverty in the West Bank and Gaza.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/the-ship-turned-into-a-lake-of-blood-says-activist-on-gaza-flotilla-1.293339 (http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/the-ship-turned-into-a-lake-of-blood-says-activist-on-gaza-flotilla-1.293339)
Six Greeks and several others, including a Turkish woman and her 1-year-old baby, were released Tuesday.
Turkish activist Nilufer Cetin, who had hidden with her baby in her cabin's bathroom aboard the Mavi Marmara, told reporters she believed there were 11 dead.
”The ship turned into a lake of blood," Cetin told reporters in Istanbul, having returned after Israeli officials warned that jail would be too harsh for her child.
"We were aware of the possible danger in joining the trip," she said. "But there are thousands of babies in Gaza. If we had reached Gaza we would have played with them and taken them food."
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/straight-into-the-trap-1.293421 (http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/straight-into-the-trap-1.293421)
Israeli spokesmen repeatedly stressed yesterday that the demonstrators went into a violent frenzy that endangered the soldiers' lives. This argument, however, should not detract attention from the question of why these things happened, and whether an alternative had been possible. Ultimately, Israel walked straight into the trap that the flotilla organizers set, and has found itself in a massive diplomatic mess. It remains unclear what Israel should do about the next aid ship, which is due to set sail for Gaza today or tomorrow.
One of the most telling images of the day, along with footage from the ships, was the expression of Navy Commander Major General Marom at the noon press conference. The many weeks the navy spent preparing to meet the flotilla, the advance praise it received for its professional preparations, all culminated in a resounding failure. We should be clear: If Israel's goal was to "contain" the flotilla and prevent it from triggering a major crisis, we failed utterly and completely, and in no way is this the soldiers' fault.
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<<Michael come on...it is very clear this is a PR stunt....the flotilla was and is invited to dock at Ashdod port, to unload their cargo and transfer it to Gaza, after a security check, either via the Israeli authorities or via the humanitarian organizations.>>
OF COURSE, it's a PR stunt. So was Gandhi's march to the sea. The issue isn't whether or not the actors are trying to get publicity, but what exactly are they trying to publicize? In Gandhi's case, it was the British salt tax and in the present case, it's the blockade of Gaza.
With or without Israeli brutality, the exercise would have succeeded. Hundreds of millions of people around the world became very aware of the issue and of the underlying injustice. The brutality of the Israeli assault on and murder of the aid workers was a bonus, showing the true face of the IDF - - murderous lying bastards - - to those millions.
This wasn't about docking at Ashdod - - that would have glossed over the fact that the Israelis have blockaded every single port in Gaza. The point of the exercise was to BREAK THE BLOCKADE. And in a way it's already succeeded - - the Egyptians have opened their sole border crossing to Gaza. The Israelis have to live with the image of them that the whole world has now seen. For every member of this group who can find the legalities and the technicalities and the arguments to justify this act of outright brutality, there are thousands who see it for what it is, all over the globe. No matter what bullshit rationalizations you want to bring to these wanton murders, most people will see through them. The violence was purely gratuitous and more than that, the underlying violence and injustice of the blockade is also exposed to the world.
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<<oh and by the way....4 rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel in the last 24 hours...>>
Cry me a fucking river. What do they expect now, rose petals and chocolates?
<<I am sure if Mexico was shooting hundreds of rockets over the last couple of years into Arizona and New Mexico the US would show as much restraint as Israel has.>>
Apples and oranges. Obviously the Palestinians feel angry enough to shoot rockets at the Israelis and the Mexicans don't feel angry enough to do the same to the US. Why that is requires a lesson in the history of the US, Mexico and Israel, which I'm not prepared to deliver right now.
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<<The Palestinian Authority and the Israeli government were on their way to a sit down "directly or indirectly" to proceed at an advanced stage in the process. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and other players were blessing the move cautiously. But this process was moving outside the control of Iran and Syria and their protege's in Gaza.>>
If I had a dollar for every time since 1967 the Israeli government was "on its way to a sit-down" and all the rest of that bullshit, I'd be a rich man. In the next 20 years, there will be just as many times that the Israeli government was "just about to sit down and negotiate seriously" and was stopped only by a: rocket attack/explosion in a disco/arms shipment "discovered" in Africa/incendiary rhetoric/"discovery" of an assassination plot/etc./etc./etc.
This stuff is written by PR hacks for morons.
I could have saved the author the trouble. The massacre of the aid workers by Israeli forces was entirely due to: Iran/Syria/Hamas/Hezbollah/"terrorists"/anti-Semites/Israel bashers/Turkey/Islamic fundamentalists/Wahabbis/green aliens from Mars/deranged man-eating plants/Afghans/ . . . or any combination thereof. Q.E.D. Don't blame the Israelis for this or you're an anti-Semite. End of story. Is anyone from the Israeli embassy or the Zio-Nazi bullshit machine reading this? I'll work cheap. And fast.
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<<oh and by the way....4 rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel in the last 24 hours...>>
Cry me a fucking river. What do they expect now, rose petals and chocolates?
<<I am sure if Mexico was shooting hundreds of rockets over the last couple of years into Arizona and New Mexico the US would show as much restraint as Israel has.>>
Apples and oranges. Obviously the Palestinians feel angry enough to shoot rockets at the Israelis and the Mexicans don't feel angry enough to do the same to the US. Why that is requires a lesson in the history of the US, Mexico and Israel, which I'm not prepared to deliver right now.
The diffrence between the Apple and the Orange here is anger?
I don't think so , it is all Oranges there.
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Now see, this is the problem.
"O my, they're blockading us."
Well stop rocketing them for crying out loud. That's why they're blockading you. Duh!
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Brave young Israeli Man takes on Mob!
Daniel in the lions' den draws fangs; Muslims deny flotilla lynch-mob- then become one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABjE_7uwA0I#)
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Sad story. The young man has no respect for others, even as they mourn their dead, he waves his flag over their grief.
This is certainly evidence that the conflict will not be resolved peacefully. Only the armed struggle can decide the outcome. Only time will tell who the winner will be.
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The young man has no respect for others, even as they mourn their dead, he waves his flag over their grief.
So how many of those protesters at the LA Consulate do you think had relatives on that boat?
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I don't know. When you see a delegation of Americans mourning the victims of 9-11, do you ask how many of them had relatives in the WTC or the Pentagon?
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Were the Americans mourning at the Afghanistan Consulate?
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What difference where they choose to mourn? Obviously they pick a place that gives some symbolic meaning to their grief. They can't attend the funeral.
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Most people mourn passings by gathering among friends and family.
This protest seemed more organized. Bullhorns and printed signs. Wonder if ANSWER was involved.
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Next time they want to mourn their dead, they'll ask you for your opinion on the proper protocol for doing so.
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That would be nice. Save them the shock of seeing an Israeli Flag in proximity to the Israeli Consulate.
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One thing to see it flying as it flies every day come rain or shine. Something else to see a young man who has such disrespect for their grief and their anger that he brings his own flag to wave in their faces just because they have come there to vent their grief and their rage.
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What sorry propaganda.
"Allahu akbar" means "God is great", NOT "Allah is a greater God" Muslims do not believe that gods other than Allah exist.
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Something else to see a young man who has such disrespect for their grief and their anger that he brings his own flag to wave in their faces just because they have come there to vent their grief and their rage.
Perhaps he was grieving the loss of his own. You wouldn't deny him that privilege would you?
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I and probably most others interpreted the young man's actions and words as clearly taunting the mourners. Consider for example CU4's take on it as he introduced the material, "Brave Young Israeli Man Takes on Mob!" - - sounds a lot more like defiance or spite than grief to me.
What did he say or do that indicates any grieving on his part? Inquiring minds want to know.
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sounds a lot more like defiance or spite than grief to me.
Stage 2 of the grieving process is "anger". He'll move on to "bargaining" soon.
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<<Stage 2 of the grieving process is "anger". He'll move on to "bargaining" soon.>>
Looks to me like this punk got to "anger" all by himself, without going through any part of the grieving process.
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Looks to me like this punk got to "anger" all by himself, without going through any part of the grieving process.
Looks to me like the protesters were at the same stage.
My guess as to why they held the "wake" at the consulate
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...he shock of seeing an Israeli Flag in proximity to the Israeli Consulate
ya see BT this is the way Mikey & the Left want a "one way street"
obviously these people are not "mourning"...oh boo whoo...like Mikey implies
as if they just happen to be "mourning" at the Israeli embassy....lol
no...it is quite clear to anyone with a brain...they are making a statement
so in their mind and Michael's...it's A-OK for them to make anti-Israeli statements
at the Israeli enbassy....but it's somehow not OK to make statements in support of Israel
at the Israeli embassy. if this young man was at the Mosque where they would truely be mourning
or at some ceremony held for the dead...Mike would have a point...but not here...he knows it
and so do i
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<<Looks to me like the protesters were at the same stage. [anger]
<<My guess as to why they held the "wake" at the consulate>>
That's what CU4 says too. Maybe you're both right. So we're back to Square One. They're pissed off that the IDF murdered a bunch of aid workers, and he's pissed off that they're pissed off. The victims are pissed off at the murderers and the murderers are pissed off at the victims. Only each side claims that they are the victims and the other side are the murderers.
This thing is NOT going to end through some kind of amicable agreement. That's why armed struggle, for the Palestinians, is the ONLY solution because the Jews won't give an inch. They'll talk for decades, as they have already done, and while they are talking, they are settling the land they are supposed to be talking about and dispossessing the inhabitants as fast as they can.
One side is going to win and one side is going to lose. And from where I sit, I can't tell which is which. God or Allah will decide in the fullness of time.
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and so it goes
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Precisely. Both Xo & Tee, on the side that armed conflict is what's needed, since a peaceful Israel is detrimental to the region.
Can we advocate that Israel take off their safeties now, and no longer hold back. Even the staunchest Palestinian & Hamas supporters apparently agree to what's needed
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(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/Foden20100603-R.I20100603094624.jpg)
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Precisely. Both Xo & Tee, on the side that armed conflict is what's needed, since a peaceful Israel is detrimental to the region.
Israeli is largely peaceful now. A totally peaceful Israel is an impossibility until and unless the Palestinians are compensated for what the Israelis have stolen from them.
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Israeli is largely peaceful now.
Umm....someone either hasn't been paying attention to current events, or has a decidedly different definition of "peaceful", than the rest of us
A totally peaceful Israel is an impossibility until and unless the Palestinians are compensated for what the Israelis have stolen from them.
As long as the premice remains flawed, you'll get no where. You get Hamas, and every other militant Islamic terroist organization to unify an agreement, in writing, that demonstrates their respect for Israel sovereignty, and will no longer be the target of any futher military/terrorist action, from that point on, then we can talk about what the israelis can turn over