Author Topic: Some Background Facts & Opinions on what actually happened  (Read 1126 times)

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sirs

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Some Background Facts & Opinions on what actually happened
« on: June 03, 2010, 02:56:49 PM »
Let's preface this with the notion that we won't get any non-biased source of what went down on the seas off Gaza.  The Israelis are going to paint their efforts with the most defensive posture in mind, in defending themselves, and the Jihadist "humanitarians" are going to paint Israel in the worst possible light as possible, gun toting raving mercs.  So, most of that "eye witness" testimony is going to be hard to swallow.

Which leaves us the logistics and facts of the matter.  So, excluding the OPINIONS of those who believe the blockade is legal vs those who believe otherwise, what do we have?  Let's start with the hard facts (that you can argue semantics to them, but remain factual)

- Food and aide are getting into Gaza, much of it brought in by Israel itself, but as with this flotilla, being allowed in thru the blockade as well.  So that debunks how this blockade is supposedly preventing such

- All, but the last boat in this flotilla was allowed thru, complete with all its "aide", again debunking the above

- Israelis were beaten, when they repelled down onto the last boat.  Again, these are facts, not to be confused with conjecture on supposed spray firing by Israelis prior to coming down.  It's believed that the initial Israeli's weapons were taken and used against the following Israelis.  That however is merely Israeli testimony, and can't be considered a fact, as I've clarified above

- 9 members of the flotilla were killed.  HARDLY a massacre, when there were well over 700 folks to this Flotilla armada.  And its conjecture thay they were executed in any way, since there are no facts to support that opinion

Those are the facts.  From those facts, one can start applying deductive reasoning.  And if one makes the effort to remain objective and not condemn anything/everything Israel, its far easier to apply common sense to the events of that night.  Israel, I believe, did demonstrate poor judgement in their actions that night.  Should have waited until daylight to board, should have had naval vessels near, and use them to cover any boarding.  

That said, facts would conclude that there was no "massacre", as every other boat was allowed thru, and the only battle took place, when Israelis started boarding the last boat, which did have homemade weapons, including materials that could help to make explosive devices.  It's extremely likely that these 9 folks died when Israelis fired in self defense.  Could they have used less lethal force? possibly.  They apparently came on board with their firearms holstered and paintball guns brandished.  If they had waited until daylight, perhaps 9 folks would still be alive.  But that's mere opinion & speculation.


« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 04:13:19 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: Some Background Facts & Opinions on what actually happened
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2010, 03:04:08 PM »
(CNN) -- The deaths of several people Monday during a raid by Israeli soldiers on a flotilla bringing aid to Palestinians in Gaza has once again brought worldwide attention on Israel's blockade of the area.

Who organized the flotilla?

The Free Gaza Movement, a Cyprus-based human rights group, brought together a number of organizations to form the Freedom Flotilla. The coalition includes the European Campaign to End the Siege on Gaza. Another pro-Palestinian group, Insani Yardim Vakfi (IHH), a Turkish organization, also sent a ship. The flotilla left Cyprus on Sunday and had been due to arrive in Gaza on Monday.

Why a flotilla?

The Free Gaza Movement says it wants to raise awareness of what it describes as the "illegal siege on Gaza" by Israel. It says the blockade of Gaza by Israel is unjustified and that it denies Palestinians vital goods and services. "We want to raise international awareness about the prison-like closure of Gaza and pressure the international community to review its sanctions policy and end its support for continued Israeli occupation," the group says on its website.

What did the convoy consist of?

Six ships -- three passenger and three cargo vessels -- were carrying over 10,000 tons of aid and 600 passengers from more than 20 countries, says the Free Gaza Movement. Most of the passengers were Turkish. The cargo consisted of food, medical aid and other supplies including cement, prefabricated housing and educational equipment, the group said. The Turkish prime minister said Monday that the vessels were inspected before they left port in Turkey to make sure the cargo did not include weapons.

What does Israel say about the blockade?

The blockade was imposed by Israel in 2007 after the militant group Hamas seized control of Gaza. It is designed to stop the smuggling of arms into the territory, the Israeli government says. Israel says the Gaza shoreline is closed to maritime traffic. Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said Israeli civilians were plagued a year ago by rockets and missiles fired from Gaza that originated in places like Iran and Syria.

What happens next?

The U.N. Security Council on Tuesday called for a "prompt, impartial, credible and transparent" investigation into the raid. Across the world, protest rallies against the raid are being staged and criticism of the action continues to pour in. In Washington, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has a pre-scheduled meeting with Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu on Tuesday.

Where are the activists?

Israel said that 600 flotilla activists were transported to Beer Sheva prison in southern Israel. Forty-five of them have been released and were either deported or taken to Ben Gurion International Airport. Those who remain detained are ones who have refused to identify themselves to Israeli immigration authorities, an Israeli Prison Authority spokesman told CNN. None have been placed under arrest, he said. Among the ones who have refused to give their names are many foreigners, a police spokesman said. The process involved in deporting these latter protesters is more complicated, as it requires the involvement of foreign diplomats, police said.

Have ships been sent to Gaza during the blockade before?

Yes, the Free Gaza Movement says on its website it has organized eight voyages to Gaza, "successfully arriving in Gaza five times." The group said its "boats are the first international ships to sail to the Gaza Strip since 1967."

What does the U.N. say about the blockade?

The United Nations has described the blockade of Gaza by Israel as the "collective punishment" of the Palestinian people living there. The U.N. has repeatedly criticized the blockade and what it says is an insufficient flow of materials into the area for basic needs and reconstruction. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has warned the closure "creates unacceptable suffering, hurts forces of moderation and empowers extremists."

What goods does Israel allow into Gaza?

About 15,000 tons of humanitarian aid flows into Gaza each week, Regev has said. Israel says it allows enough humanitarian aid -- including food and medicines -- into Gaza for the people who live there and that the blockade is designed to stop Hamas from building or acquiring arms. Israel has never published a list of banned items, but it has refused to allow into Gaza books, paper, blankets and reconstruction materials. The U.N. says 80 percent of Gazans rely on some form of humanitarian aid.

Why did Israel object to the flotilla?

The Israeli government described the flotilla as a "provocation" and said it was a political stunt. Danny Ayalon, the Israeli deputy foreign minister, said: "The organizers' intent was violent, their method was violent and the results were unfortunately violent." The Free Gaza Movement said the flotilla's aim was to "challenge Israel's blockade of 1.5 million Palestinians trapped in an open-air prison."

Was there another route for this aid?

The Israeli government said it would allow humanitarian aid on the flotilla into Gaza through its normal channels. An IDF spokesman said the vessels "refused to comply with an invitation to come to Ashdod port where they could transfer aid into the Gaza strip." Audrey Bomse, legal adviser to the Free Gaza Movement, told CNN the group did not believe the Israelis would let the cargo into Gaza, and that the cargo also included reconstruction aid which Israel does not allow into Gaza.

How did things turn violent?

The Israel government says its soldiers faced violent resistance as they boarded the largest ship, the Marmara. The Free Gaza Movement denies there was violent resistance to Israeli soldiers, saying the soldiers immediately opened fire on unarmed civilians. Video released by the Israeli Defense Forces showed intense fighting on the decks of the ship.

How many people were killed?

The number remains in dispute. Israel says nine flotilla participants were killed. The Free Gaza movement said the death toll was higher, but did not offer an exact number.


Q&A: Aid and Israel's Gaza blockade
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Henny

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Re: Some Background Facts & Opinions on what actually happened
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2010, 03:57:04 PM »
Let's preface this with the notion that we won't get any non-biased source of what went down on the seas of Gaza.  The Israelis are going to paint their efforts with the most defensive posture in mind, in defending themselves, and the so Jihadist "humanitarians" are going to paint Israel in the worst possible light as possible, gun toting raving mercs.  So, most of that "eye witness" testimony is going to be hard to swallow.

Sirs, I was so impressed to see you appraising this situation with such openess.

Quote
- Food and aide are getting into Gaza, much of it brought in by Israel itself, but as with this flotilla, being allowed in thru the blockade as well.  so that debunks how this blockade is supposedly preventing such

What people generally don't realize is that while SOME food is getting into Gaza, the Israelis are randomly barring and banning food supplies. The only thing I can compare it to is communist-style control. Some of the most publicized bans have been that they allow a spice blend in (called za'atar) that Arabs eat with olive oil in bread... but they ban cardomom and cumin. They allow chick peas in, but ban tahini (sesame seed paste). Chick peas and tahini are the main ingredients in hummus, of course. So what is that all about? Is it that they fear hummus bombs, or is it about ridculous levels of control?

(I think the tahini ban was recently lifted to be replaced with a ban on something else... maybe chick peas this time.  :-\ )

But a person can obviously live without hummus or cardomom and cumin. But what is really troublesome is that not enough fresh produce and meat are being sent in. There simply isn't enough for the people and now there are more and more cases of malnutrition. They have limited space and means to grow the produce - and seeds are also randomly blocked from being let in - and there isn't enough livestock to slaughter for everyone. They are utterly dependent on what aid they can get for this basic survival needs.

Then to top it all off, the limited rations are causing price spikes that put many of the supplies coming in beyond the price that most people can afford.

And that is probably all I will say about the situation. A person gets tired of talking about it.

***Reporting live from Amman, Jordan - neighbor to the Palestinians and living amongst their refugee relatives.  ;)

sirs

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Re: Some Background Facts & Opinions on what actually happened
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2010, 04:08:57 PM »
Always a breath of fresh air to see you Miss Henny.  Even when we clash    8)   and I don't doubt that the blockade is hampering all the foods that could get in, including fresh meats & vegees.  If only folks like Hamas would stop showering Israel with rockets, there'd be no need for a blockade.  But that's for another discussion/thread. 

What I seriously doubt (opinion driven) is this idiotic notion that
A) Israelis are trying to starve the Palestinians, when this flotilla alone was bringing in over 10,000 tons of food & aide, all but the last vessel having been let thru
B) Israelis were trying to murder those trying to bring in humanitarian goods, when they had several other ships ahead of them, that were allowed thru, and not 1 gunshot
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Some Background Facts & Opinions on what actually happened
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2010, 10:03:46 PM »
Israel is preparing for a new ship to run the blockade, the Irish ship MV Rachel Corrie, due to arrive in the area Friday.

 "The Rachel Corrie will not be allowed into Gaza," David said. "We are watching it and waiting to see what will happen. Hopefully, the people on board will direct to the port in Ashdod. "The naval blockade is still in effect and the ship will not be allowed to enter into the naval blockade area."

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Media/american-killed-gaza-aid-flotilla/story?id=10814848&page=3

BT

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Re: Some Background Facts & Opinions on what actually happened
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2010, 10:24:16 PM »
Interesting choice of names for the ship.


Kramer

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Re: Some Background Facts & Opinions on what actually happened
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2010, 11:36:44 PM »
Let's not forget that Egypt is in on the blockade too.

Henny

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Re: Some Background Facts & Opinions on what actually happened
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2010, 01:34:02 AM »
Always a breath of fresh air to see you Miss Henny.  Even when we clash    8)   and I don't doubt that the blockade is hampering all the foods that could get in, including fresh meats & vegees.  If only folks like Hamas would stop showering Israel with rockets, there'd be no need for a blockade.  But that's for another discussion/thread. 

What I seriously doubt (opinion driven) is this idiotic notion that
A) Israelis are trying to starve the Palestinians, when this flotilla alone was bringing in over 10,000 tons of food & aide, all but the last vessel having been let thru
B) Israelis were trying to murder those trying to bring in humanitarian goods, when they had several other ships ahead of them, that were allowed thru, and not 1 gunshot

Actually, what they are doing is very similar to what they've been doing all along in one way or another - this just has gotten some international attention. Their main method of "war" if you will, has always been a combination of psychological games and bureaucratic ploys to make being a Palestinian and living in Palestine unbearable. Not just Gaza - all of them, all the time, in different ways.

BT

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Re: Some Background Facts & Opinions on what actually happened
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2010, 01:40:00 AM »
Maybe we should just move Israel to Utah

Kramer

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Re: Some Background Facts & Opinions on what actually happened
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2010, 01:38:13 PM »
Maybe we should just move Israel to Utah

maybe we should just drill baby drill and drop the Middle East as our main supplier of fuel.