DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: BSB on March 23, 2012, 11:49:57 AM
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Was Zimmerman, the Florida shooter, like Mohammed Merah, the suspect in the killing of seven people in southwestern France, a home-grown militant, consumed by hatred, but acting out on his own rather joining a terrorist organization? And, did the Florida Police Department that issued his Carry to Kill License, aka a CKL, aide and abet this terrorist?
BSB
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Never thought that myself. I just chaulk this as nothing more than very poor judgement. Something all of us are guilty of and hope it doesn't get us in trouble. Sadly age is not a reliabe cure.
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Ahh, you don't have to worry with this CKL holder B. You've taught me well. I'll wait to make sure they've actually shot and killed you, before taking out the threat
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Many a communist tried to shoot and kill me but I'm still here, and I did it without the help of an undereducated, idol worshiping, gun nut-job/terrorist.
Stand Your Ground Americans, don't let the paranoid element take away your right to live unmolested by Carry to Kill terrorists and wannabe jihadists.
BSB
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LOL...amazing how so many in law enforcement, especially here in the state of CA, are so quick to give this supposed gun nut a license to carry.
Jealous?
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How would Mr Zimmerman intend to use terror?
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Just the way he did.
BSB
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(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Politics/6f8cff71.jpg)
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Convicting George Zimmerman in the court of public opinion even though he is currently a FREE MAN according to local police. You can always count on a democrat to start a lynch mob when they don't like what you've done. After all, they did start the KKK and the Black Panthers... two of the most hate-filled and racist organizations this country has ever known. So what else did you expect?
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Oh yes, of course.
The racists are the victims. Treyvon Martin deliberately provoked Zimmerman by walking home wearing a hoodie armed with a can of tea and Skittles.
There needs to be as thorough an investigation as possible. Zimmerman loses the gun and permit, and any chance of becoming a cop at least.
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(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Politics/9e5e1e97.jpg)
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Zimmerman's mother is Peruvian. Many Peruvians are 100% Spanish, more are not.
It makes no difference. Zimmerman unnecessarily pursued and shot dead an innocent person.
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Full 911 audio shows Zimmerman in a more positive light
By Kyle Rogers, Charleston Conservative Examiner
Thousands of newspapers and media outlets have reported that a 911 operator told George Zimmerman that the police did not need him to follow Trayvon. The entire uncut recording is now available online. It is four minutes and twelve seconds long. The rest of the call provides a lot more details as to what happened.
Many in the media have characterized Zimmerman as targeting Trayvon simply because of his skin color. The 911 operator asks Zimmerman if he is following Trayvon at 2:30 in the 911 tape. The first two minutes and thirty seconds of the call primarily consists of Zimmerman describing the behavior of Trayvon.
Initially the 911 operator asks Zimmerman about the race of Trayvon and Zimmerman indicates that he ?might be black.? Shortly after that Trayvon turns and starts walking towards Zimmerman. When he gets close, it is only then that Zimmerman describes him as a young black male.
At about 2:20 on the tape Zimmerman describes Trayvon as having suddenly taken off running. Most of the rest of the call consists of Zimmerman and the 911 operator discussing a location for the police to meet Zimmerman. Zimmerman is not following Trayvon at this time, and reports that he can no longer see Trayvon.
We now know that Trayvon had been suspended from school at the time. His mother had sent him to his father's house, and he was out late on what would have been a school night. After Trayvon was tragically shot, he remained a John Doe in the morgue for almost three full days before his parents came looking for him.
Tiny excerpts of the phone call have been used to portray Zimmerman as a vigilante or even someone just looking to pick a fight. The entire four minute twelve second call shows someone that is passionate about his neighborhood and wanted to assist the police any way he could.
Continue reading on Examiner.com Full 911 audio shows Zimmerman in a more positive light - Charleston Charleston Conservative | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/full-911-audio-shows-zimmerman-a-more-positive-light#ixzz1q9RUGsRL (http://www.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/full-911-audio-shows-zimmerman-a-more-positive-light#ixzz1q9RUGsRL)
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Suspended from school, out late at night, remained a John Doe for 3 days. Boy, what a dangerous unloved kid. Good thing Zimmerman killed him.
BSB
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The "Charleston Conservative Examiner" : that sure sounds like an impartial observer.
Zimmerman made 46 calls in under 60 days to the police, even reporting cyclists doing wheelies.
I would not call Zimmerman a Home Grown Militant. He is more of a Cop Wannabe Dangerous Pest.
I do not see where the actual recording differs much from reports of it.
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Full 911 audio shows Zimmerman in a more positive light
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Politics/a99def5c.jpg)
http://abcnews.go.com/US/male-student-shot-death-mississippi-state-university-suspects/story?id=15997857#.T2-I4MUgeEZ (http://abcnews.go.com/US/male-student-shot-death-mississippi-state-university-suspects/story?id=15997857#.T2-I4MUgeEZ)
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Now you are demanding equal time?
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(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Politics/7058e690.jpg)
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The more the facts come out, the fishier this looks.....
Police: Zimmerman says Trayvon decked him with one blow then began hammering his head
With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times, leaving him bloody and battered, authorities have revealed to the Orlando Sentinel.
That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say.
Zimmerman has not spoken publicly about what happened, but that night, Feb. 26, and in later meetings he described and re-enacted for police what he says happened.
In his version of events, he had turned around and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from behind, the two exchanged words then Trayvon punched him in the nose, sending him to the ground, and began beating him.
Zimmerman told police he shot the teenager in self-defense.
Civil rights leaders and thousands of others have demanded Zimmerman's arrest, calling Trayvon a victim of racial profiling and Zimmerman a vigilante.
Trayvon was an unarmed black teenager who had committed no crime, they say, who was gunned down while walking back from a 7-Eleven with nothing more sinister than a package of Skittles and can of Arizona iced tea.
Supporters have held rallies in Sanford, Miami, New York and Tallahassee, calling the case a tragic miscarriage of injustice.
Activist Al Sharpton headlined a rally in Sanford Thursday that drew an estimated 8,000 people. The Rev. Jesse Jackson yesterday spoke at an Eatonville church, where he called Trayvon a martyr.
Another rally is scheduled for 4 p.m. today in Sanford.
Zimmerman has gone into hiding. A fringe group, the New Black Panthers, have offered a $10,000 reward for his capture.
Police have been reluctant to provided details about all their evidence, but this is what they've disclosed to the Sentinel:
Zimmerman was on his way to the grocery store when he spotted Trayvon walking through his gated community.
Trayvon was visiting his father's fianc?e, who lived there. He had been suspended from school in Miami after being found with an empty marijuana baggie. Miami schools have a zero-tolerance policy for drug possession.
Zimmerman called police and reported a suspicious person, describing Trayvon as black, acting strangely and perhaps on drugs.
Zimmerman got out of his SUV to follow Trayvon on foot. When a dispatch employee asked Zimmerman if he was following the 17-year-old, Zimmerman said yes. The dispatcher told Zimmerman he did not need to do that.
There is about a one-minute gap during which police say they're not sure what happened.
Zimmerman told them he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words.
Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police.
Trayvon then said, "Well, you do now" or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose.
Zimmerman fell to the ground and Trayvon got on top of him and began slamming his head into the sidewalk, he told police.
Zimmerman began yelling for help.
Several witnesses heard those cries, and there's been a dispute about from whom they came: Zimmerman or Trayvon.
Lawyers for Trayvon's family say it was Trayvon, but police say their evidence indicates it was Zimmerman.
One witnesses, who has since talked to local television news reporters, told police he saw Zimmerman on the ground with Trayvon on top, pounding him and was unequivocal that it was Zimmerman who was crying for help.
Zimmerman then shot Trayvon once in the chest from very close range, according to authorities.
When police arrived less than two minutes later, Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose, had a swollen lip and had bloody lacerations to the back of his head.
Paramedics gave him first aid, but he said no to going to the hospital. He got medical care the next day.
The Department of Justice last week opened a civil rights investigation into what happened, and Gov. Rick Scott appointed a special prosecutor.
It's not clear whether the special prosecutor, Angela Corey, the state attorney for Duval, Clay and Nassau counties, will have Zimmerman arrested, announce that there's not enough evidence to file a manslaughter charge or present evidence to a grand jury.
rstutzman@tribune.com or 407-650-6394.
Copyright ? 2012, Orlando Sentinel
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_arizona-iced-tea-suv-unarmed-black-teenager (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_arizona-iced-tea-suv-unarmed-black-teenager)
I think Derbyshire called this one right.....
05 ? Trayvon Martin case. That brings us to the second story of the week in which the reporting is as much of a story as the story: the Trayvon Martin case.
This all started four weeks ago when Trayvon Martin, a 17-year-old Florida high school student, was found shot and killed in Sanford, Fla., a town north of Orlando. I'll just pause to look up Sanford on city-data.com. Population 51,000, median household income $42,000, a tad below the Florida average, detached house average price $202,000, 44 percent married, racial breakdown ? white 47 percent, black 30, Hispanic 17. Sounds like a humdrum lower-middle-class community.
OK, so four weeks ago there's Trayvon Martin lying dead of a gunshot wound. The shooter is on site when the cops show up: 28-year-old George Zimmerman, captain of the local neighborhood watch. Mr Zimmerman has a bloody nose, an impact wound in the back of his head, and grass stains on the back of his shirt.
Mr Zimmerman tells cops ? who know him from his neighborhood watch role ? that he killed Martin in self defense. Police do not arrest him, as Florida law does allow you to shoot someone in self-defense.
A couple of weeks go by, and Martin's family is asking for an arrest. Last Friday a local ABC News affiliate published the 911 calls at the time of the shooting. They don't tell us anything much, but people are by now primed to hear what they want to hear in them.
Around this point, it being a pretty slow weekend, the MSM dimbos suddenly wake up to what they've got. What have they got? A Great White Defendant, that's what!
You'll recall Tom Wolfe's 1985 novel Bonfire of the Vanities, in which the Bronx District Attorney's office is so weary and guilt-ridden at processing the steady stream of black and Hispanic perps, when they finally get a white one, it's like Christmas Day for them. The Great White Defendant! This is a recurring phenomenon in the MSM news cycle: the Duke University rape case was a recent example.
Well, once they realized they'd got a Great White Defendant in harpoon range, the MSM went nuts. The story they hastily put together was that a feral white guy had gunned down a harmless young black man for no reason whatsoever! The stories were decorated with pictures of Trayvon Martin as a winsome preteen, no pictures of him at his actual age of 17 apparently being available, or perhaps just not ? suitable. We also got pictures of Zimmerman, fleshy and scowling. No selection going on there at all, guys, I'm sure.
There was a slight hiccup in the accumulating narrative when it turned out that Zimmerman, his name notwithstanding, is actually Hispanic. There are various accounts of this, I don't know which one is true. I've heard he is a Spanish-speaking Guatemalan adopted into a Jewish family, that he is half Jewish, half Puerto Rican, and a couple of other versions. Anyway, the luster came off for the MSM a teeny bit. Hispanic Guy Shoots Black Kid just doesn't send quite the same tingle up the MSM leg as White Guy Shoots Black Kid.
Still, you work with what you've got. Trayvon Martin was undoubtedly dead, and undoubtedly unarmed at the time of the encounter ? other than with a pack of Skittles candy, a very handy prop to go with those winsome kid pictures. We haven't been told much else about him. He stood six feet three, considerably taller than Zimmerman. He was also way fitter than Zimmerman, who is 100 lbs overweight. He played school football, and so presumably spent time in the weight room. He was a "model student," said the first reports; then we learn he was on a five-day suspension from school, presumably not for being a model student.
What about the considerable evidence that at the time of his death, Trayvon Martin had George Zimmerman on the ground and was pounding the bejasus out of him? Whooosh! (That's down the memory hole.)
With all its deficiencies, the story will do. It was time for another Great White Defendant story, and the MSM have stepped up to supply one.
Again, I take no position on the facts of the case, which are mostly unknown or ambiguous, and which I am sure will be clarified in due course. What I'm taking a position on is the fact that the MSM, in full shrieking battle cry, have taken a position on the facts, ignoring known ones that don't fit their narrative, and twisting the ambiguous ones to favor that narrative.
Meanwhile the story continues to metastasize. Activists here in New York City staged a riot on Trayvon Martin's behalf the other day. I assume that's what happened, anyway. The AM New York headline read Protesters clash with NYPD in rally for Trayvon Martin, OWS. If clashing with police isn't a riot, what is? Notice the OWS rabble getting in on the act, too. This show will run and run.
Meanwhile, last weekend, just in the city of Chicago ? the one our young President community-organized with such dramatic results ? in Chicago last weekend gangbangers murdered ten people and wounded another forty. The youngest murder victim is only six years old. The youngest person wounded is only one year old. Many of the victims were pedestrians sprayed with bullets in drive by shootings. Is that news? I guess not. No Great White Defendant there ? heck, not even a Great Hispanic Defendant. Sorry, I'm feeling no tingle up my leg at all.
http://www.johnderbyshire.com/Opinions/RadioDerb/2012-03-23.html#05 (http://www.johnderbyshire.com/Opinions/RadioDerb/2012-03-23.html#05)
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The fact remains:
(1) Zimmerman should not have been armed.
(2) He should not have gotten out of his car and pursued Martin.
Anything and everything that happened was Zimmerman's fault because of this.
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There is no reason he should not have been armed.
And i don't think the entire story is known.
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(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y273/ItsZep/Politics/8cc1f2dd.jpg)
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WRONG. There is every reason why this clown should have been armed.
Had he not been armed, this could never have happened.
We know he was not a responsible gun owner. He is the poster child for the thtle of "gun nut".
He probably would have stayed in his car.
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WRONG. There is every reason why this clown should have been armed.
Had he not been armed, this could never have happened.
We know he was not a responsible gun owner. He is the poster child for the thtle of "gun nut".
He probably would have stayed in his car.
And you know this how?
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Had he stayed in his car, he could have run away. Martin had no car and could not outrun even a very slow car.
If he had not been packing heat, no one could have been shot.
It is perfectly logical.
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Where do you get that he is the poster child for gun nut. What in his past points to this observation?
If he had not been packing heat his brains might have been laying on the sidewalk. Perhaps Martin was not the victim, he is being portrayed to be.
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If he had a brain, he would have stayed in his car and minded his own damn business.
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His business was being part of the neighborhood watch.
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Perhaps Martin was not the victim, he is being portrayed to be.
I don't know if this is factual or not, but I am being told:
"George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch crime captain who shot dead 17-year-old Trayvon Martin,
originally told police in a written statement that Martin knocked him down with a punch to the nose,
repeatedly slammed his head on the ground and tried to take his gun, a police source told ABC News.
March 26, 2012"
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His business was being part of the neighborhood watch.
WATCH, not capture. A neighborhood watch has the duties of observing and reporting, not pursuing and detaining. I bet wherever Zimmerman is now, he wishes he had not been such a prick.
If some asshole points a gun at you, what is more logical than trying to take it away from him?
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Where did you get that Zimmerman was capturing Martin.
Martin jumped him.
Please try to keep up, you are not getting the whole story.
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Why was Zimmerman chasing Martin down if not to capture him or perhaps shoot him?
Zimmerman was in his car and saw Martin looking "suspicious". He then GOT OUT OF HIS CAR and pursued Martin.
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The Orlando Sentinel reports:
With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk, leaving him bloody and battered, law-enforcement authorities told the Orlando Sentinel.
That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say.
The newspaper elaborates on Zimmerman’s story:
Trayvon was visiting his father’s fiancée, who lived there. He had been suspended from school in Miami after being found with an empty marijuana baggie.
. . . .
Zimmerman told them he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words.
Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police. Trayvon then said, “Well, you do now” or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose, according to the account he gave police.
Zimmerman fell to the ground and Trayvon got on top of him and began slamming his head into the sidewalk, he told police.
Zimmerman began yelling for help.
As well as the available corroborating evidence:
Several witnesses heard those cries, and there has been a dispute about whether they came from Zimmerman or Trayvon.
Lawyers for Trayvon’s family say it was Trayvon, but police say their evidence indicates it was Zimmerman.
One witness, who has since talked to local television news reporters, told police he saw Zimmerman on the ground with Trayvon on top, pounding him — and was unequivocal that it was Zimmerman who was crying for help.
Zimmerman then shot Trayvon once in the chest at very close range, according to authorities.
When police arrived less than two minutes later, Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose, had a swollen lip and had bloody lacerations to the back of his head.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager)
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If some asshole points a gun at you, what is more logical than trying to take it away from him?
uh?
say what?
if somebody points a gun at me the LAST thing I would do is try to take the gun away from them
i would pretty much do everything possible to back away from the situation the best I could
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So you aren't as brave as Martin, perhaps.
Again, Zimmerman was responsible here. He had no reason to get out of his car and pursue Martin. And please, Zimmerman is NOT the victim here. You can easily tell that, because the other guy is dead.
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I noticed that after it all Zimmerman was asked by the police, or EMTs, if he wanted to go to the hospital. Zimmerman said no.
So, let me see here. You're getting beat up so badly that you need to pull a gun and kill your attacker, but you don't need to go to the emergency room? You just go home, make a pbj, and watch a little TV?
BSB
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The fact remains:
(1) Zimmerman should not have been armed.
That's NOT a fact...that's an opinion. And according to Florida Law, had a perfect right to be armed. THAT IS A FACT
(2) He should not have gotten out of his car and pursued Martin.
That's not a fact either, that's a judgement call. In hindsight, he shouldn't have
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So, let me see here. You're getting beat up so badly that you need to pull a gun and kill your attacker, but you don't need to go to the emergency room? You just go home, make a pbj, and watch a little TV?
We don't know if Zimmerman pulled the gun or whether Martin was trying to take the gun from him while he was on the ground and in the struggle it went off.
But that is neither here nor there. Zimmerman was authorized by the state to carry that gun.
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So you aren't as brave as Martin, perhaps.
No just smarter......
the thug is dead because he tried to take the gun away....that you claim is so logical.
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No one has ever said Zimmerman wasn't legally authorized to carry a gun. The question is why did he kill a seventeen year old kid who every right to be where he was and didn't even hurt him enough to require medical attention? Being a pussy doesn't give you the right to shoot people.
BSB
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I don't see where he is a pussy for declining a trip to the ER.
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That's how you took what I said? Are you getting sirs disease?
He's a pussy because he wasn't beat bad enough to even have to go to the ER, yet he killed the kid.
BSB
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Are you saying he unholstered his pistol and shot the boy in the chest or was there a struggle over the gun and then the boy got shot? I don't know the all facts and i doubt you do.
Did he need to have required 30 stitches before you would judge his life in danger? He didn't know the extent of the head injury until the EMT's looked him over.
The situation was fluid. He did what he had to do.
If laws were broken, hopefully justice will prevail. In the courts and not in the press.
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he wasn't beat bad enough to even have to go to the ER
No....just beat enough to have a broken nose!
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First of all, when did this >>the gun went off by accident during a wrestling match for possession of it<< come up, and what is the source? If he was protected under the give no ground law, which is what we've been lead to believe, that implies he shot to kill.
Second, 30 stitches might not be necessary, but something beyond a few bumps and bruises.
What kind of society do you want to live in BT? Are we going to live in a society where if someone jostles you on the subway you can just start shooting? Zimmerman and his firearm were an accident waiting to happen. This incident is a perfect example of why I'm conflicted about concealed carry laws. On the one hand I'm for it, on the other I know most of the people who carry don't know what they're doing.
BSB
P.S. CU4, a broken nose? Are you kidding? Give me a break.
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First of all, when did this >>the gun went off by accident during a wrestling match for possession of it<< come up, and what is the source? If he was protected under the give no ground law, which is what we've been lead to believe, that implies he shot to kill.
At this point it is speculation. Zimmerman was down. Martin was on top of him smashing his head on the pavement. This is backed by testimony and witnesses.
If you are beating a guy would you be aware of movements by that guy, would you feel the gun on your leg as you straddled him. Would you go for it at the same time Zimmerman was?
That part is speculation, but is plausible. Forensics might help complete the picture.
I would like to live in a society where every random event is not overtly politicized to the point that the facts play second fiddle to the narrative.
And you and I have been around long enough to know that that is exactly what is happening. This one is a two fer race and gun control.
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>>would you feel the gun on your leg<<
In my case that would depend on which leg.
BSB
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I know most of the people who carry don't know what they're doing.
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Well said! There is a reason people should not be allowed to own their own personal bazookas and heat-seeking missile launchers.
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So you don't trust in the competence of the state to test and license gun owners?
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I do not trust whomever tested Zimmerman or the guy that shot Gabi Gifford, or the process by which they were issued gun permits, no.
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Loughner had a permit to carry??
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Is this incident being used? Sure, by some, assholes are assholes. But it does speak quite eloquently to several issues. Should a neighbourhood watchman carry a firearm? What are your responsibilities as a civilian when you carry a concealed weapon? How effective, and predictable, can the licensing of concealed carry permits really be? What kind of training should be mandated to possessors of concealed carry permits, if any? Should they be required to undergo further training every time the permit is reissued, or even more often perhaps?
This incident never should have happened. Fault can, at this time, be found in all camps. The watchman, the young teenager, and the police. I think we can agree, this is a tragedy, and in response to tragedy we should search for ways to lessen the possibility of it happening again.
BSB
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I know most of the people who carry don't know what they're doing.
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Well said! There is a reason people should not be allowed to own their own personal bazookas and heat-seeking missile launchers.
The same reason that most people should not be allowed to have cars and computers.
You can cause a lot of harm with those things, only persons who can prove legitamate need and demonstrate competance and responsibility to a state agency should be allowed access to any thing dangerous.
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Cars have lots more use than a gun, so do computers.
A gun is more like a bazooka than a car or a computer.
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Is this incident being used? Sure, by some, assholes are assholes. But it does speak quite eloquently to several issues. Should a neighbourhood watchman carry a firearm?
If he's followed the laws of the jurisdiction, and fulfilled all requirements to do so, absolutely
This incident never should have happened.
NOT because he had a CCW, but by the bad judgement call of apparently following Martin
I'm still waiting to see this validation to the claim that Loughner had a CCW
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If Zimmerman could not buy a gun, he would not have had a gun. The same is true of Loughner.
He who has no bazooka, cannot incinerate their fellow men with a bazooka.
He who has no gun, shoots no one.
The permit is not the issue. Packing a gun is the issue. No gun, no shooting.
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If Zimmerman could not buy a gun, he would not have had a gun. The same is true of Loughner.
Minus the idiocy of trying to interject bazookas, into the conversation, why would Zimmerman not be allowed to exercise his 2nd amendment right in buying a gun??
And where's this proof of Loughner's CCW, that you're trying so desperately to apply as similar to what's happened with Zimmerman?? "I do not trust whomever tested Zimmerman or the guy that shot Gabi Gifford, or the process by which they were issued gun permits, no"
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Who made the claim that Loughner had a CCW?
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Are you not paying attention? I even included the quote by Xo. What else is a permit used for, as it relates to guns.....that'd be a CCW permit
Or are you just trying to be argumentative with me, to take some light off your asanine racist claims with the cartoon?
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Loughner was permitted to purchase the firearms after a federal criminal history check.
I would be permitted to buy a Glock and not have a need for a CCW.
So no one claimed that Loughner had a CCW.
K
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ISSUED A GUN PERMIT....does not equal....permitted to purchase a gun
But I'm sure Xo appreciates your defensive efforts :o
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If you are permitted to purchase a gun is that not a permit. If i am licensed to drive do i not get a drivers license, what do you get with guns, a receipt? No proof that a satisfactory background check was run? How does one show the purchase was permitted? What piece of paper do they show.
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If you are permitted to purchase a gun is that not a permit.
No.
That's called a 2nd amendment right. So no, you are not issued a "permit" when you purchase a gun. You may be handed a receipt from the store owner, ownership papers (NOT a permit), and a handshake, but no, you are not handed a "permit".
In fact, the way you're trying to intermix the termis of a permit vs being permitted, implys that the gun purchase is not a right, but a priviledge, that of the state having the good graces to permit you to purchase the firearm
Keep digging though, Xo has to love how you're trying to dig him out of his hole, while yours gets deeper
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there are quite a few states that require a permit to purchase a handgun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_%28by_state%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_%28by_state%29)
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sorry... a link to wikipedia MINUS some specificity as to this notion of states requiring a "permit" to purchase, isn't going to cut it
keep digging
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They have a handy chart and everything.
CT, IL, IA are just 3. there are more
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Sorry, you're not required to have a "permit" to purchase a gun. Subsequent paperwork after the purchase may be referred to as a permit, in some remote locales, but you are not required to have a "permit" to purchase a gun. Just have to be legal. Keep digging.
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not according to wiki, add NY,NJ, RI to states requiring purchase permits.
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Keep digging, especially since this tangential sematic hunt you're on, has to do with the context by which Xo used it. But knock your socks off
I do not trust whomever tested Zimmerman or the guy that shot Gabi Gifford, or the process by which they were issued gun permits, no.
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Zimmerman and Loughner should not have been permitted to buy, own or operate guns.
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As long as anyone has a legal right to purchase, your dictatorial "no they can't" doesn't fly in this country
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As long as anyone has a legal right to purchase, your dictatorial "no they can't" doesn't fly in this country
that is not a true statement.
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2nd amendment says it is
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A convicted felon can not purchase a gun. In some states a person under a restraining order can not purchase a gun. Which means that gun purchasing is more a privilege than a right.
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A convicted felon can not purchase a gun. In some states a person under a restraining order can not purchase a gun.
Then they don't have the legal right, now do they ::)
Which means that gun purchasing is more a privilege than a right
Now THAT would be an untrue statement
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This incident never should have happened. Fault can, at this time, be found in all camps. The watchman, the young teenager, and the police. I think we can agree, this is a tragedy, and in response to tragedy we should search for ways to lessen the possibility of it happening again. BSB
That is actually quite well stated.....
And as discussed earlier
I think in most cases it may be wise for neighborhood watch folks
to carry tear gas/pepper spray
i saw a show recently that showed a wild attacking
bear was stopped by a hiker with pepper spray
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Whatever you want to say about gun nuts and their rights. Loughner and Zimmerman had no business walking around with guns. No crime was prevented by this, and people are dead because of it.
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And there are FAR more people saved and alive due to folks "walking around with guns". (and no, that's not specific to Law Enforcement). Them damn pesky FACTS
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Facts from the Bizarro World of sirs.
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No, those would be FACTS from the FBI. And no, I don't work there either. they've been provided to folks like yourself, many a time before, that you so deftly ignore, and move on to calling other people names
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Bull!\
I don't believe that any statistics even exist.
When people pull out a gun, they don't call the cops. And they could cal the cops even when there was no reason to do so and report something that never happened.
Just NRA propaganda.
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I know...I know....facts to a diehard toe tag letist is like kryponite to superman. When crimes are prevented, FREQUENTLY the cops are called. But that's besides the point.
Facts (not mine, not Plane's, not Cu4's), generated by the FBI, have proven that FAR more crimes are prevented by the mere brandishing of a gun, than lives taken by the use of a gun. And when suicide #'s are taken out, that numer jumps even higher
Not to mention the FACT (again, not mine, but the FBI's), that there is far more violent crime in areas with much greater gun restrictions, than locations with much more permissive gun laws (meaning the areas where more legal "people walking around with guns" have less violent crime and deaths than those areas were less people are allowed to "walk around with guns")
Sorry, FBI's facts, not mine
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It's bullshit.
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It's bullshit.
No it's not.
There are countless crimes not committed because bad guys fear they could be shot.
I know...I actually know from personal experience.
In high school we pulled a lot of shenanigans.....I was jailed twice
the only thing that prevented us from really "going over the top" was fear of being shot
there is no doubt we would have broken in houses, or drove cars into houses/garages
except the fear of getting shot....
it is actually total "bullshit" for you to proclaim the bad guys dont fear "getting shot"
they are held back from countless crimes...things like home invasions, robbery, burglary, ect...
for fear of being shot
and those stats never get categorized because "things that don't happen" don't get counted
but it's insanity to pretend that fear does not exist.
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I did not say that bad guys, like yourself, do not fear being shot.
I said that unrestricted carrying of guns are not likely to lower the rate at which people get shot.
This "stand your ground" law has resulted in a lot of gangsters using it.
In Florida, if you point your gun at some guy, that is a three year mandatory sentence.
On the other hand, if you shoot the guy and claim self-defense, you just say you felt threatened, and it's alley-alley oxen free.
Now that I know more about you, I am even MORE sure that having you packing heat does not make me feel safer.
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I did not say that bad guys, like yourself, do not fear being shot.
That was many, many moons ago....and I only thought I was!
Now that I know more about you, I am even MORE sure that having you packing heat does
not make me feel safer.
I dont "pack heat"....I pack pepper spray.
but if you break into my home then you may get 'kilt"!
And it isnt brain surgery that the bad guys know that.....
(http://www.customnames.com/visittex/506.jpg)
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I do not engage in home burglary.
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I do not engage in home burglary.
I don't think you would volenteer to be involvewd in a burgulary, but if you have a home or car you can be involved in one as easily as anyone elese.
Unless you have a big sign in frount of your house that proclaims its gun free status , you benefit from the commonness of guns in your community.
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I have nothing to steal in my home that would not give a thief a hernia to try to steal.
I have bars on the windows and the neighbor has a loud dog.
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I have a monitored alarm system and sleep with a SW 38 special under the covers
and in my master closet I have a non-auto AK47 with Clinton banned 30 round clip
the only fear i ever have...and it's really not like I live in fear...I sleep like a baby
but my biggest concern as far as crime....is a home invasion
i will be fine as long as i have just a few seconds....they will get hellfire!
worst case...i dont want to wake up with a 6.3 monkey at the end of my bed with a baseball bat
(http://www.policemag.com/_Images/articles/HomeInvasion-2.jpg)
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Sounds to me like you are scared sh!tless of tall monkeys.
Try hard not to shoot yourself in the foot.
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Sounds to me like you are scared sh!tless of tall monkeys.
only if they are suddenly without any warning standing
at the end of my bed at 3AM wanting whats not theirs!
but it's unlikely with an alarm and a locked bedroom door.
In just a few seconds I believe I would have enough time to hopefully kill them.
Home Invader Shot Dead (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyq8Rlp_E9w#ws)
Boy Uses Dad's AR-15 to Shoot Invader (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-q2zHIovOE#ws)
CA Mother Protects Children, Shoots Burglar (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIMTJaZsC-o#)
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It's bullshit.
I'll be sure to pass on what you think of the FBI, as soon as I get the chance. Until then Professor Coolaide, keep those blinders on good and tight
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The FBI may be good at investigations, but their ability at statistics is crap, if they say what you say they say, which is also dubious.
\
Gun nuts make up stuff.
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The FBI may be good at investigations, but their ability at statistics is crap
As I said...when I get the chance, I'll be sure to pass on your say so record vs their facts
Gun nuts make up stuff.
Obviously then it'd be so easy to disprove them and the FBI, now, wouldn't it. But until that, just because you say so, your 95% record of being wrong with just your say so, remains just that. Nice sourcing of that supposed 1000page Obamacare bill too. Keep this up you might reach 99% wrong