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Messages - Christians4LessGvt

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10996
3DHS / Re: Enough said.
« on: August 25, 2007, 08:30:22 AM »
I see. You want to bomb the countries into poverty. Hm. I wonder what the long-term consequences of that will be.

first, why would bombing military facilities in Iran and/or Syria automatically equate to poverty?

secondly, my intention would not be to cause any country poverty, but if Iran and Syria after repeated warnings continued to be involved in arming/training/funding activities that kill american soldiers/Iraqi civilians/Iraqi policeman/Iraqi elected officials and activities that continue to try to prevent democracy from taking place in Iraq then yes if poverty was the consequence of their actions I could easily accept that just like abe lincoln or any other american president has accepted the consequences of war.

So you'd escalate the situation. And what do you think would be the results of that?

no, they are the one's escalating the situation by being involved in funding/arming/training/ect of people involved in killing US soldiers and involved in attempts to sabotage the Iraqi people's attempt at democracy.

they would finally be held fully accountable for their actions, if thats "escalation", so be it

And your support for this argument is what, exactly?

the reality of what actually took place on the ground in two theaters of war

the Kosovo War seems a particularly poor example to use.

see US death count in the Kosovo war
as far as military strategy, overall it was conducted brilliantly
kudos to President Clinton as commander in chief
now we need his wife to follow in his footsteps

If I was going to pick on technical issues in your writing, I'd have done so before now

"if"?
you just did.
there is no "if".
it seems a rather boring and meaningless pursuit
but whatever floats your dingy


10997
3DHS / Re: Enough said.
« on: August 25, 2007, 12:01:54 AM »
I'm sarcastic sometimes. Deal with it.

why do you feel the need?

Immediately following the end of World War II, were there foreign countries sending even just a few pounds of fighters/money/arms to support insurgencies in Germany and/or Japan? I must have missed the day my history class covered the bombings that took place to quell the Nazi insurgents after V-E day. Or maybe there weren't any.

exactly proving my point, there were not any because we would not have tolerated any
today we tolerate such nonsense and we are reaping the results

And your solution to that would be what? More war with Iran and Syria?

not a ground war, but yes like Presidnt Clinton in Kosovo, i would use air power to alter behavior causing US soldier deaths and sabotaging democracy in Iraq
that is what we are doing anyway
fighting proxy wars with Iran and Syria
that is really no secret
i would warn first
i would warn again, and then again
if support of insurgents/suicide teams(80% foreigners)/arms/money killing american soldiers was not halted
then i would set timetables, give one last warning
then first aerial bombings of iranian and/or syrian military facilities would begin
bombing would halt and see if interest was now to halt the support of killing american soldiers
if no behavior change, the bombings would continue until behavior stopped or the Syrian and Iranian militaries were destroyed from the air

I think you mean Kosovo.

yes kind of like in this thread when you posted "aftereffects" and probably meant "after effects" or in this thread when you posted "not see long we can make it last" and meant to say "not see HOW long we can make it last". It's called a typo. I make them and obviously you do too.

(I only point this out because Kosevo is also a place, which I know because I looked it up just now, and I want to be clear.)

yeah sure, i am sure you had any doubt as to what I was referring to

But what is your point? U.S. involvement in that conflict did not drag out for years.

exactly because President Clinton handled that war like we should handle Iran and Syria.
it's the "Clinton Blueprint" if you will
if Hillary promises to carry out the same plan in Iran and Syria that her husband did in Kosovo I'll vote for her.

And the arguments for U.S. military involvement there have been called into question, not entirely unlike the arguments for war against Iraq

what wars has the US been involved in that no one called into question whether it should be fought?
and btw i am only praising President Clinton's military strategy in Kosovo, not the reason we were there






10998
3DHS / Re: Shaken by product safety woes, China declares "war"
« on: August 24, 2007, 11:17:10 PM »
"Why is it that you have no source?
You got it from somewhere"


i got it in an email from a friend of professor i know
i clearly stated right at the top to whom I posted it to that it was unsourced and take for it whatever they wished
why not address the issues raised instead of trying to change the subject?

"Assumptive scenarios and scare tactics"

what like michael moore has made millions doing?

10999
3DHS / Re: Shaken by product safety woes, China declares "war"
« on: August 24, 2007, 10:58:47 PM »
henny, the article is not saying the "china shoddy practices" are new
in fact you strengthen the case they are making when you
say it's been going on twenty years and alot people knew
thats excatly what the article implies
that basically this has been going on for years
so why is it coming out now in a big scare tactic way?
they seem to think it's coming out now is no accident

11000
3DHS / Re: Shaken by product safety woes, China declares "war"
« on: August 24, 2007, 08:13:30 PM »
henny you may find this interesting
i can not source this info
so take it as you will

China & Iran Targeted
US Turns to Cold War Tactics


The old Cold War tactics employed against the Soviet Union assume new guises in the era of the global economy and the new giants it has thrown up.

China?s international trade relations, for instance, are its Achilles heel.

In this day and age, therefore, discrediting the Made in China label worldwide becomes a Cold War tactic par excellence.

The campaign branding Chinese products marketed in the West as unsafe and harmful to health reached a new climax this week, threatening China?s gigantic textile exports.

Thursday, Aug. 23, Australia and New Zealand started the new outcry when they hastily recalled Chinese-made clothes discovered to contain dangerous levels of formaldehyde, a chemical preservative, in woolen and cotton clothes made in China, after tests were performed on imported blankets.

Earlier, toys containing lead and other hazardous substances, unhygienic toothpaste and harmful human and pet foods, were highlighted in warnings to Western consumers. The convention planted in the minds of consumers worldwide that buying Chinese is dangerous to health, especially of infants, will be hard to erase in the long term. Tens of thousands of Chinese export industries, medium and small, face hard times and many millions of workers stand to lose their jobs.

In a desperate bid to halt the made-in-China scare, Chinese officials raided a Beijing factory suspected of recycling 100,000 chopsticks a day and putting them back on the market unsterilized. Half a million pairs were confiscated.

Even more than air pollution, this sort of scare will keep visitors away from the Chinese capital, where eating out is seen to be a health hazard, and most likely hit ticket sales for the Beijing 2008 Summer Olympics.

A trade war is launched

Far East sources report that Chinese officials are deeply suspicious of the verbal offensive on their economy. They are asking why in mid-2007, Western consumers have been suddenly alerted to the unsafe standards of Chinese products, after they have swamped the world?s markets for twenty years.

And why are the products of other Asian countries not subjected to the same systematic scrutiny?

Those sources say that the powers-that-be in Beijing suspect that the administration headed by George W. Bush has embarked on a trade war not only against Iran but also the governments which befriend the Islamic Republic, although China has never been singled out before.

This suspicion ties in with the leak to the media of the administration?s plan to blacklist Iran?s Revolutionary Guards Corps as global terrorists in September, when the US Security Council is also scheduled to discuss harsher sanctions against the Iran for refusing to give up uranium enrichment.

This decision would resonate harshly outside the US-Iranian conflict, given the close military ties the Revolutionary Guards Corps maintains with Russia, India, Turkey and, most of all, China.

This week, too, US undersecretary of state Nicholas Burns made a complaint heavy with warning when he said that UN sanctions are undercut when America?s allies make lucrative trade deals with Iran. At a meeting at Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, Burns named those allies as Europe, Turkey, India, Japan and South Korea.

Some, he said, even offer credit to businesses trading with the Islamic Republic of Iran. Even countries that support UN sanctions continue to do business with Iran in other fields, particularly in the energy sector ? a veiled reference to China.


Financial warfare and containment



A State Department official admitted that the Iranian threat was now being treated in similar terms to the Soviet Union in the Cold War, which left the United Nations on the sidelines and the brunt of confronting Soviet Russia to the United States.

Washington?s tactic will be to turn the heat on countries such as Turkey, India and China continuing to do business with Iran.

Washington?s cold war tactics are hurting Iran?s financial sector, with more to come.

Last week Alianz?s Dresdner Bank discontinued business relations with Iran, the third German bank to do so after Deutsche Bank and Commerzbank in recent months.

A furious response came from Vice Governor Jafar Mojarrad of Iran?s Central Bank.

He said there was no guarantee for their return in good times, and banks from Asia, Russia and the Gulf Region were prepared to take over the German banks? business.

Power plays, Cold War style, are in the works for Iran?s containment. Setting aside its earlier demands for allies to embrace democratic reforms, Washington is strengthening its military relations with Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and the other Gulf Cooperation Council members with the accent on stability.

Washington is also in mid-drive for influence in the parts of the world targeted by Iran.

President Bush?s senior military adviser General Peter Pace visited some African countries this month.

On Aug. 14, he was in Djibouti to address members of Combined Joint Task Force ? Horn of Africa mission at a "Town Hall meeting" in the Thunder Dome at Camp Lemonier, Djibouti. He told them that through a humanitarian mission of capacity building and military training to help Africans help themselves, their project will be a model ?as the US military sets up its African command.?


China & Iran in Secret Harness

Beijing Nourishes Tehran?s Military Industry, Colludes in Central Asia and Africa

Outside intelligence circles, the depth of Sino-Iranian friendship is a well-kept secret.

It draws strength from a chip on the shoulder they share as two of the world?s most under-appreciated civilizations. They see their bond as a lever to be used to make the West, the Russians and fellow Asians give them the respect which is their due as ancient cultures and contemporary global powers.

Iran and China try to guard the true extent of their collaboration as a cherished secret, according intelligence sources. Beijing silently applauds Tehran?s troublemaking in Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine and Afghanistan as a bid to weaken the United States; both promote the impression that Russia is Iran?s senior strategic partner.

In fact, it is China which has for the last five years been quietly transferring to Iran nuclear know-how and sophisticated missile technology, oblivious to protests from Washington.

Assuming US intelligence is alive to these goings-on, it would appear that the Bush administration has decided to stay mum while, at the same time, hitting China in its pocket.

According to intelligence sources, the Chinese are feeding Iran technology for most of its military industries, including the sensitive elements of military aircraft production. With help from Beijing and technical information from Russia and Ukraine, Iran has been able to go into production of two fighter aircraft designated Saegheh and Azarkhsh and a two-seater training craft.

From China, Iran?s aviation industry has learned techniques for making engine components, electronics and aircraft design.

It is possible that China may even have passed to Iran vital elements of electronic technology and equipment purchased in the past from Israel.

The two governments are in the final stages of drafting a multi-annual contract for the sale of Iranian gas and oil to China. Washington leaned hard on Bejing to stop the transaction, to no effect.

China?s inside track with the clerical rulers of Tehran is enhanced at the same time as Iran goes sour on Moscow, chiefly over Russia?s procrastination in releasing fuel for the Bushehr reactor and completing its construction.

Putting down clandestine roots in Africa together

Iran and China have a flourishing partnership going to put down clandestine roots in Africa. In the teeth of US disapproval, China will be setting up in Khartoum, Sudan, an intelligence and administrative station for organizing its operations across the continent. Iran?s side of the deal is investment in Sudan?s infrastructure including roads, while working with the Sudanese government to expand an Islamist network of terrorists across Africa. Subversive agents are to be planted in Somalia and the Horn of Africa, and sanctuary provided for terrorists on the run from pro-Western governments.

The Chinese-Iranian collaboration was confirmed when General Peter Pace, military adviser to President George W. Bush, visited the Horn of Africa and other parts of the continent earlier this month.

Watchful eyes in Washington did not miss Iran?s president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad hobnobbing at length with Chinese president Hu Jintao at the Shanghai Cooperation Organization?s summit in Bishbek on Aug. 16.

Sources also reveal that the summit in the capital of Kyrgyzstan also occasioned the secret venue for the first known private conference between Presidents Vladimir Putin, Hu Jintao and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

One of the consequences of that encounter was the decision to step hard into the hot arena of Central Asia to challenge the US military presence and its investments in the gas and energy resources of the region.

The Russian president believes he can get away with a double game. By keeping a foot in both camps, he hopes to qualify as honest broker for smoothing differences between his two Asian colleagues and Washington.

This will not wash. Putin?s visit with the Bush clan in Maine was far from a roaring success. The US president?s strategic advisers are leery of the Russian president?s pose athwart the West and the radical Muslim camp and see him as part of the opposition.
 



11001
3DHS / Re: Enough said.
« on: August 24, 2007, 06:36:37 PM »
You mean in the places where we are not fighting insurgents? Golly gee yes,

why be a smartass? whats the point of that?

but i guess i can play too
"yeah golly gee" as you said why were there no insurgents in germany and japan?
because we destroyed an enemy and did not tolerate neighbors sending in tons of fighters/money/arms to support an insurgency
about 80% of suicide bombers (aka "headline grabbers")in Iraq are foreigners
we should not be tolerating Iran and Syria supporting the insurgents
but we did and are and now we are suffering the consequences
if there were insurgents in Japan and Germany they and their towns would have been laid to ashes
allow insurgents to dictate the rules and sure you'll lose
btw kosevo had insurgency elements



11002
3DHS / Re: Enough said.
« on: August 24, 2007, 05:51:40 PM »
It is an example of what happens when the U.S. tries to impose its will on another country and gets stuck in a pattern of fighting to stay rather than fighting to defeat

no it is an example of only going into a fight half cocked and and trying to fight a "pretty war"
but you are right, war can not be won if it is basically goverened by "60 Minutes Approval"
war is not pretty and the only way to win a military war is to destoy your enemy
see germany
see japan
see kosevo
but i agree with you we should be more careful, as long as we have snifling liberal reporters with a pacifism agenda running after headlines of every little story like a dog barking in our enemy's face instead of focusing on the goal to as quickly as possible total destruction of the party we are at war with it.
"pretty wars" don't work
abe lincoln could not have won the war if pacifist agenda reporters had been sensationalizing every possible mistake or abuse
it's war not people magazine

Well, we need to learn from the history of our military excursions into Korea and Vietnam, and stop acting like an indefinite stay in Iraq is the best course of action.

Korea? hasn't the indefinite stay in Korea, Japan, and Germany worked rather well?
are you saying South Korea would be better off like the nightmare of starvation going on in north korea?

 



11003
3DHS / Re: Enough said.
« on: August 24, 2007, 04:11:11 PM »
"You've basically constructed an entire house of cards, based on your ability to predict the future from one contingency to another in a chain of maybe six basic links"  

micheal it isn't really such a reach to to surmise the Islamic Theocrcay's intentions and how they are going about it
see hezbollah, see Sadr, see huge miltary involvement in Syria, ect.
but i agree with you that my scenario could be altered by world events
i still hold out hope that the younger generation will overthrow the 17th century Mullahs
however the scenario i paint is pretty much their goal and so i think we can't gamble that the "if's" just wont happen
we must prepare as if those chain of events could very well happen because if we wait hoping they wont and they do
we could be faced with armageddon
just recently I am depressingly coming to the conclusion that armageddon is where we are headed because we are too afraid to have the cavity worked on and we are going to let it fester until it's too late and it will become a root canal abcess
it's human nature to avoid pain









11004
3DHS / Re: Enough said.
« on: August 24, 2007, 02:22:56 PM »
For all that effort, time and blood, the "insurgents" (if you will) of Vietnam were not defeated

so if insurgency is present the us should always "cut & run"?
after "Custer's Last Stand" we should have "cut & run"?

"finding a way out sooner rather than later or, regardless of whatever good intentions might be behind remaining"

if we cut and run from Iraq and Iraq becomes another Iran and like Iran begins funding new Hezbollas all over the middle east and destabilising moderate Arab governments and the the destabilised gvt are replaced with Islamic Theocracies sitting on an endless supply of oil revenues and like Iran they all begin to have nuclear misssles pointed at Europe and the US, and then the same path is followed in Europe, what? just deal with that huge dilemma then rather than stop it in it's tracks right now with alot less money, less pain, less suffering, and less death. out of sight out of mind? put of the filling until it becomes a root canal?

11005
3DHS / Re: God's Warriors: Muslim women: My headscarf is not a threat
« on: August 24, 2007, 12:05:09 AM »
Christian, first I want to ask for a clarification on your terminology.

if you are asking me, when i say burka this is how i envision a burka



and this is basically what somebody was wearing inside O'Hare Airport in Chicago.



11006
3DHS / Re: Enough said.
« on: August 23, 2007, 11:31:59 PM »
What part of "Who said it?" are you finding difficult to understand?

when you ask "who said it" i was not sure if you were questioning who said it originally or if you were unsure if President Bush said it
they both said it or at least both said the same basic same content, so thats what made your question unclear

Okay, so where is the source for your initial post?

i did not think a source was needed. see below

Because this sequence of words

"Both Osama bin Laden and Zawahiri invoke Vietnam. Bin Laden said: It is for us or you to win. If you lose, it will be your disgrace forever." is not in the speech for which you provided a link.


You are in fact correct. I just went back and read the entire speech, that was edcuational, so thanks for pressuring me into reading the entire speech which by the way provides more factual data to rebut some of Michael Tee's earlier statements. that source did in fact not get the correct sequence or exact wording correct. It is in fact true that President Bush did speak about Zawahiri and Bin Laden invoking Viet Nam. President Bush in the speech did say "Bin Laden has declared that "the war [in Iraq] is for you or us to win. If we win it, it means your disgrace and defeat forever."

Obviously what you quoted in your initial post did not come from the speech.

It did come from the speech, but was not quoted correctly or in correct sequence.
content was basically correct but that was a good catch on your part because that was a
pathethic job of reporting from wherever I copied and pasted from


I suppose this isn't really a big deal, but I'm curious as to why you're not giving a link for the source of your initial post.

To be honest many times I will provide sourcing, but this speech was all over the networks, all over the internet, all over the radio so I just thought it was not necessary to provide a source for something so widely distrubuted. It would be like sourcing the Ten Commandments. Maybe thats a stretch, but you catch my drift. I look at literally hundreds of sources of politcal and geo-political sites on a daily/weekly basis so I can not remember which one this came from. Obviously they got the sequence and exact wording wrong, although for the most part the content is factual and pretty much what the President said.



11007
3DHS / Re: What the West Needs to Know About Islam
« on: August 23, 2007, 06:31:02 PM »
do these people actually believe an abortion is ok and should legal be for any reason at 8.5 months?

11008
3DHS / Re: God's Warriors: Muslim women: My headscarf is not a threat
« on: August 23, 2007, 01:06:12 PM »
Muslim women: My headscarf is not a threat

random thoughts:
i am undecided on many of the following and just interested in other's thoughts
what about burkas?
would anyone be offended to walk into a walmart 5 years from now and 1/2 the women in there are wearing burkas?
i know that wont happen, but if it did, well would it bother you?
i suppose it would be their legal right? freedom of expression? freedom of religion?
in some ways catholic nuns used to wear burka like outfits
so what would be the difference?
but honestly when i saw a woman in a head to toe burka at O'Hare in Chicago my immediate reaction was negative
i suppose it may have to do with what the burka partly represents in my mind, repression of women?
any thoughts?

11009
3DHS / Re: Enough said.
« on: August 23, 2007, 12:12:10 PM »
It took the Confederacy at least 60 years to accomplish anything similar

and really air conditioning did more to make the south boom than almost anything else

11010
3DHS / Re: Enough said.
« on: August 23, 2007, 12:06:24 PM »
"Who actually said that exact sequence of words? Did President Bush make that statement? Did someone writing an article or a column or a blog entry make that statement? Who said it? A simple link to the source for your initial post would help much"

it is still a bit hard to understand your question.
President Bush said the words, but some of what President Bush said was when he was quoting Bin Laden
so you could say they both said some of the exact sequence of words
not sure what your point is

here is the link to President Bush's speech he made yesterday if you have doubts:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/08/20070822-3.html

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