What the West Needs to Know About Islam

[Michael Tee]

<<We don't discuss religion with them because we know them by their manners--we know that they will sneer and shout us down.  We also know if we remain too long, deferring, suspicions about us and Satan will emerge.  In their own enclave, they see themselves as mirrors full of lambs, but to the rest of us who are exposed to their bristling disapproval, they are simply potentially dangerous because of their smite-happy tyranny.>>

I discuss religion with any and all of them because I know I can win every time.  Religion - - any religion - - is pure ignorance, but some are more stupid than others.  Regardless, I have never lost an argument with a religious person.  Usually, they find an excuse to terminate the discussion if they want to save face, another technique is to refer to some obscure religious tract and try to leave it with me, claiming it will answer all my questions.  However, if you want to know the reason for the love of violence that seems to infect the religious right, it is frustration:  they know they can't win an argument with an informed opponent if logic and fact are the deciding factors, so violence is really the only option they have to defend their POV.

I believe there is no short-term solution to the problem of religious thinking.  It is obviously due to ignorance but the ignorance is deeply ingrained and people have formed emotional attachments to their delusions.  I think over time, as long as there is freedom of speech, education will slowly dissolve religious thinking and one day people will regard religion they way they regard any other outmoded belief system - - the same sort of bemused contempt that we now feel if informed that our ancestors once practiced cannibalism or human sacrifice as a matter of course.  Yeah?  THAT'S what people REALLY thought?

[Plane]

I have never lost an argument with a religious person.

You haven't or can't?


Who was it who said a Fanatic can't change his mind and won't change the subjet.

"...the same sort of bemused contempt that we now feel if informed that our ancestors once practiced cannibalism or human sacrifice or communism...."

Lets not be contemptuous of people , I hope that the future includes some people who have a minor humility to realise that they are the same sort of creature as we are and our ancestors were , an overlay of new knoledge does not change the basic nature of our creature.

[Michael Tee]

<<You haven't [lost an argument with a religious person] or can't?>>

Haven't so far.

<<Lets not be contemptuous of people , I hope that the future includes some people who have a minor humility to realise that they are the same sort of creature as we are and our ancestors were , an overlay of new knoledge does not change the basic nature of our creature.>>

Please.  I did say a bemused contempt.  That is not the same as merely contemptuous.  We will know that we are much smarter than our backward ancestors but will not despise them for their backwardness, we will smile at it.


<<Who was it who said a Fanatic can't change his mind and won't change the subjet.>>

I dunno.  Let's change the subject.

[The_Professor]

<<specifically what would you do to counter and respond to another 9/11?>>

I'd urge my political representatives to get all Americans out of Iraq in the next sixty days with or without their equipment, pay major war crimes reparations to the Iraqi people, adopt a fair and balanced policy toward the Israeli-Palestinian question and pull out support for dictatorships such as Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait unless they show real and immediate progress toward democracy.  I'd make sure that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Perle, Woflowicz, Feith, Powell and others went on trial before the International Court of Justice for war crimes, crimes against humanity, torture, plotting and waging a war of unprovoked aggression and generally show that when America preaches a world of obedience to law, it means a world of obedience to law.

And if I couldn't do all of those things, then I'd triple airport, border and harbor security, stay away from large crowds and public transportation and tell my kids to avoid the big cities.

Just my feeling, but I sense all this wouldn't make a difference, MT, because you fail to note that the real reason they HATE us is that they are JEALOUS of our success. This is why millions want to come here. If we did all you mention, it still wouldn't matter; they would still HATE us and try to gut us every chance they could. So, the real issue is: Do we disengage and come back here anyway since they aren't doing anything for us and watch them cut each other to pieces (as in Shia veruss Sunni and so on) or stay and try to slow their descent into anarchy while watching them closer in case they are contemplating evil in our direction?

[sirs]

Do we disengage and come back here anyway since they aren't doing anything for us and watch them cut each other to pieces (as in Shia veruss Sunni and so on) or stay and try to slow their descent into anarchy while watching them closer in case they are contemplating evil in our direction?

I'm guessing Tee's not going to have any problem with whatever evil they throw in our direction, because basically America "has it coming" with their own evil ways, illegal wars, & fascist policies       

[The_Professor]

What this fails to take into account, that Canada will feel their wrath as well, because, whether he likes it or not, Canada and the U.S. are interwined. A friend of mine was bon in Egypt and now lives over here in Ohio. I discussed this isue with him a couple of years ago and he said people in Egypt really do not care to distinquish between us and Canada and for that matter, Great Britain. They basically see us an one entity. So, Canada' past actions such as divesting itself from nuclear weaponry is and will come to naught. It is only a wimp's way out, a "head in the sand" approach. All Canada does is implicity rely upon our nuclear shield if the wosr comes, whether they admit it or not.

[sirs]

To be honest, I don't think it would matter (if Canada got a bit of whatever evil was directed at America), so long as America gets it primarily, and gets it good.  His desire, via his rhetoric, to see heaping upon heaping of misery upon the U.S., by these boys with balls is almost tangible.  I'd wager that he's likely going to be one of those jumping up and down in glee, with the next 911 that hits us

[Michael Tee]

The Professor:
<<Just my feeling, but I sense all this wouldn't make a difference, MT, because you fail to note that the real reason they HATE us is that they are JEALOUS of our success.>>

EXACTLY, Professor, it's "just your feeling."  My feeling, for what it's worth, is that they have plenty of good reasons to hate you, as I enumerated.   Moreover, Iraqis - - in the days before Uncle Sam egged Saddam Hussein on into attacking Iran in the Iran-Iraq War, had a very good standard of living, with a liberal, secular, Western life-style and all medical and educational expenses paid from cradle to grave.  They had little if any reason to envy the U.S.A. for its material success, nor did the Saudis who actually carried out the September 11 attacks. 

sirs:
<<To be honest, I don't think it would matter (if Canada got a bit of whatever evil was directed at America), so long as America gets it primarily, and gets it good.  His desire, via his rhetoric, to see heaping upon heaping of misery upon the U.S., by these boys with balls is almost tangible.  I'd wager that he's likely going to be one of those jumping up and down in glee, with the next 911 that hits us>>

Lemme see, I've got family in Detroit, Allentown, Washington DC, Seattle, Brookline, Mass., Dallas, Los Angeles, San Diego, friends in Chicago, South Florida, Palm Springs, friends' children in Raleigh NC, NYC and Atlanta, family in Ann Arbor and Jackson Michigan; not counting my two grandchildren, my daughter and her husband in Manhattan.  But this fucking moron thinks I'll be jumping up and down with glee when the shit hits the fan.  Fuck you, my friend.  You need to grow a brain.

I'll jump up and down with glee whenever your military gets the ass-kicking it richly deserves and even more when it finally has to pull out in ignominious defeat with no victory.

[sirs]

I've got family in Detroit, Allentown, Washington DC, Seattle, Brookline, Mass., Dallas, Los Angeles, San Diego, friends in Chicago, South Florida, Palm Springs, friends' children in Raleigh NC, NYC and Atlanta, family in Ann Arbor and Jackson Michigan; not counting my two grandchildren, my daughter and her husband in Manhattan

So, if it's in any other locale you don't have any family/friends, then all will be just peachy.  Is that what we can pull from your comment?, since that's largely my point.

I'll jump up and down with glee whenever your military gets the ass-kicking (meaning as much death and carnage as possible) it richly deserves and even more when it finally has to pull out in ignominious defeat with no victory.

Kinda helps make my point.  Thanks

[Michael Tee]

<<So, if it's in any other locale you don't have any family/friends, then all will be just peachy.  Is that what we can pull from your comment?>>

No, it would NOT be "just peachy."  You must really be some kind of moron to believe that.  For that to be "just peachy," I would have to believe that in a nation of 300 million Americans, only my friends and family are decent enough to be spared Arab revenge, and everyone else (including the members of this group) is just an expendable, worthless piece of shit.  Including many fine Americans we have met on our travels and don't even know where they live.

<<since that's largely my point.>>

Really, sirs, doesn't say much for your point, does it?

I<<Kinda helps make my point  [that I, [Tee] 'll jump up and down with glee whenever your military gets the ass-kicking (sirs adds:  meaning as much death and carnage as possible) it richly deserves and even more when it finally has to pull out in ignominious defeat with no victory.].  Thanks.

What point would that be?  That the U.S. Army has the God-given right to invade any sovereign state without lawful justification in flagrant violation of the UN Charter any time it chooses without being soundly thrashed for its criminal war of aggression?  Kind of a stupid point, IMHO, and I wasn't really helping you make it, but if you're stupid enough to want to make a point like that I guess you're stupid enough to think I was helping you make it.  So, you're welcome.

[sirs]

<<So, if it's in any other locale you don't have any family/friends, then all will be just peachy.  Is that what we can pull from your comment?>>

No, it would NOT be "just peachy."  You must really be some kind of moron to believe that.  For that to be "just peachy," I would have to believe that in a nation of 300 million Americans, only my friends and family are decent enough to be spared Arab revenge, and everyone else (including the members of this group) is just an expendable, worthless piece of shit. 

That's sure the inferrence I get.  Why wouldn't you simply have said "no, I wouldn't want to see another 911 occur in the U.S.  Not on your life".  But know, you simply brought up family and close friends, and the particlar areas they life in.  Your words, not mine.  Try to be more clear next time, if you wished no further terrorist attacks on the U.S.

<<since that's largely my point  {That the U.S. needs to suffer heavy loss of life within their military ranks.}>>

Really, sirs, doesn't say much for your point, does it?

I<<Kinda helps make my point  [that I, [Tee] 'll jump up and down with glee whenever your military gets the ass-kicking (sirs adds:  meaning as much death and carnage as possible) it richly deserves and even more when it finally has to pull out in ignominious defeat with no victory.].  Thanks.

What point would that be?  

Answered already.  Massive U.S. casualties with their ass getting kicked.

[Michael Tee]

<<Answered already.  Massive U.S. casualties with their ass getting kicked.>>

Exactly what they deserve.  Might make 'em think twice before they invade another country in violation of international law.

[Christians4LessGvt]

[Michael Tee]

I got a better poster, but I'm not too good at drawing dogs. 

It's "Whoever You Elect, HE'LL Run Out With His Tail Between His Legs Just Like His Daddy Did in Nam."

(picture of a mutt with a U.S. helmet scampering out of the frame)

[sirs]

<<Answered already.  Massive U.S. casualties with their ass getting kicked.>>

Exactly what they deserve. 

Thank you.  Not sure why all the run-around