Author Topic: The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care  (Read 14792 times)

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_JS

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Re: The Ugly Tangent
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2007, 03:32:05 PM »
They have a 2nd amendment to their constitution?  And their population is how much less than the U.S.?

1. We cannot blame the French for their freedoms.
2. It is a rate meaning a percentage, so that overall population does not matter.

Now, will you answer my question:

And yet France has a homicide rate 8 times lower and they don't have the great death sentence deterrent at all! How did they accomplish that Sirs?
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sirs

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Re: The Ugly Tangent
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2007, 03:39:39 PM »
They have a 2nd amendment to their constitution?  And their population is how much less than the U.S.?

1. We cannot blame the French for their freedoms.
2. It is a rate meaning a percentage, so that overall population does not matter.
Now, will you answer my question:

I did, in my questions.  No one is blaming France for their freedoms, simply that their rights to firearms are likely not as permissive as the U.S.  That and the % of law enforcement to actual criminals is also to be considered, including the # of heavy urban centers, where much of the homicides occur.  I doubt very seriously that France has as many densely populated regions in their country as we do.

And yet France has a homicide rate 8 times lower and they don't have the great death sentence deterrent at all! How did they accomplish that Sirs?
[/quote]
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: The Ugly Tangent
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2007, 03:56:34 PM »
I did, in my questions.  No one is blaming France for their freedoms, simply that their rights to firearms are likely not as permissive as the U.S.  That and the % of law enforcement to actual criminals is also to be considered, including the # of heavy urban centers, where much of the homicides occur.  I doubt very seriously that France has as many densely populated regions in their country as we do.

1. So you believe that permissive gun ownership is partly to blame for high homicide rates in the United States?

2. France is a much more densely populated country than the United States.
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sirs

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Re: The Ugly Tangent
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2007, 07:15:03 PM »
I did, in my questions.  No one is blaming France for their freedoms, simply that their rights to firearms are likely not as permissive as the U.S.  That and the % of law enforcement to actual criminals is also to be considered, including the # of heavy urban centers, where much of the homicides occur.  I doubt very seriously that France has as many densely populated regions in their country as we do.

1. So you believe that permissive gun ownership is partly to blame for high homicide rates in the United States?

Yes.  The 2nd amendment does allow for more access to gun ownership.  However that doesn't equate to stifling the 2nd amendment, since in fact those areas with more permissive CCW laws have a smaller violent crime rate than those locales with much stricter gun regulation.  Then again, that's for another debate.  This one was about ways to deter violent crime and murder rates without trampling on the Constitution.


2. France is a much more densely populated country than the United States.

They have MORE densely populated areas than the U.S.??  I find that signifcantly difficult to believe.  I guess I should count out the # of urban areas of 1million+ between the 2 countries, and see which one country comes out on top.  Outside of Paris, France, care to cite me how many 1+ million resident cities there are?  Then I can start adding up all those in the U.S.  Off the bat there are 9 cities alone with a 1+ million population to them.  That doesn't include their immediate surrounding areas.  France has more, huh?  I'm impressed for such a little country
« Last Edit: August 22, 2007, 12:40:04 AM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

kimba1

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Re: The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2007, 09:01:14 PM »
I`m not sure deterents work
doesn`t it require that person to believe he`ll get caught?
except for ted bundy
I don`t recall any case which the guy fears he`ll get caught.


Christians4LessGvt

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Re: The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2007, 09:47:36 PM »

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sirs

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Re: The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2007, 09:54:37 PM »
I`m not sure deterents work.  doesn`t it require that person to believe he`ll get caught?

I'm confident they do, since I'm always hearing of those facing a death sentence, attempting to negotiate life without parole, if not pleading to a lesser sentence
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Henny

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Re: The Ugly Tangent
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2007, 08:49:06 AM »
They have MORE densely populated areas than the U.S.??  I find that signifcantly difficult to believe.  I guess I should cont out the # of urban areas of 1million+ between the 2 countries, and see which one country comes out on top.  Outside of France, care to cite me how many 1+ million resident cities there are?  Then I can start adding up all those in the U.S.  Off the bat there are 9 cities alone with a 1+ million population to them.  That doesn't include their immediate surrounding areas.  France has more, huh?  I'm impressed for such a little country

I'm really surprised that this surprises anyone. The U.S. is way down on the list of population density - we have an enormous country compared to tiny France. But just to illustrate, I'm attaching a population density map that I found.


Henny

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Re: The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2007, 08:50:55 AM »
Also, go to this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density

And you will find that on the list of population densities, France (metropolitan) ranks as number 89. The U.S. ranks as number 172.

_JS

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Re: The Ugly Tangent
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2007, 09:32:04 AM »
Yes.  The 2nd amendment does allow for more access to gun ownership.  However that doesn't equate to stifling the 2nd amendment, since in fact those areas with more permissive CCW laws have a smaller violent crime rate than those locales with much stricter gun regulation.  Then again, that's for another debate.  This one was about ways to deter violent crime and murder rates without trampling on the Constitution.

So, do our permissive gun laws increase our homicide rate or not? Is that why France has a homicide rate 8 times lower than the United States?


Quote
They have MORE densely populated areas than the U.S.??  I find that signifcantly difficult to believe.  I guess I should cont out the # of urban areas of 1million+ between the 2 countries, and see which one country comes out on top.  Outside of France, care to cite me how many 1+ million resident cities there are?  Then I can start adding up all those in the U.S.  Off the bat there are 9 cities alone with a 1+ million population to them.  That doesn't include their immediate surrounding areas.  France has more, huh?  I'm impressed for such a little country

As with most of Europe, France is more densely populated than the United States. France has 110 persons per square kilometer versus the United States 31 persons per square kilometer. France is a more agricultural and less densley populated country than Germany or the United Kingdom, which you can see from Henny's map and data.

That really shouldn't surprise anyone.

Now, we've established that France is more densely populated than the United States and has less permissive gun laws (but according to you that may not matter). France does not have the death penalty. They do have a far lower homicide rate.

Yet you propose increasing the death penalty as the solution for lowering our homicide rate. Clearly that isn't what they do in France. Why does your logic run counter to the facts?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2007, 09:43:40 AM »
It is also true that in the US, the states that have a death penalty and use it have a higher homicide rate than the states that either don't have a death penalty, or rarely execute anyone.

The death penalty, as used in the US, does not appear to be a deterrent.

Perhaps if we had public executions, as in Saudi Arabia,  within a month or so of the crime, there would be a deterrent effect.

This would increase the rate of execution of innocent people more, though.
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Lanya

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Re: The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2007, 11:12:46 AM »
I`m not sure deterents work.  doesn`t it require that person to believe he`ll get caught?

I'm confident they do, since I'm always hearing of those facing a death sentence, attempting to negotiate life without parole, if not pleading to a lesser sentence

What does that have to do with the deterrent effect?
deterrent

adjective

      Intended to prevent: preclusive, preventative, preventive.

What you're talking about is merely the convict's efforts to continue living as opposed to dying.
It has nothing to do with deterring a crime.  People, criminals particularly, often do things on the spur of the moment.  I doubt "Oh I won't do this, I might end up on death row" enters into their minds. 
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_JS

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Re: The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2007, 11:15:26 AM »
Indeed Lanya. I would take it a step further and argue that it is simply human nature to wish to live, especially as death nears.

That has nothing to do with deterring crime (in this case homicide) in the minds of others.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2007, 11:41:22 AM »
JS & Miss Henny have apparently completely misunderstood where I was coming from, made more notable by Js's reference of people per sq-k.  I was speaking specifically of how many highly populated cities are there in the U.S. as compared to France.  I even made a point of referencing at least 9 cities with populations of 1million+ in the U.S.  A quick googling of France lists me.....Paris with over 2 million & ......Marseille with not even 1 million.  OK, now do you see where I was coming from.  Of course, with the U.S. HUGE desert and mountain regions, not to mention the size of the U.S. alone is going to make density quite small compared to tiny countries, but the point I was making was in sheer #'s as well as the many many locales with those huge #'s.  Capice'?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2007, 12:01:16 PM »
JS & Miss Henny have apparently completely misunderstood where I was coming from, made more notable by Js's reference of people per sq-k.  I was speaking specifically of how many highly populated cities are there in the U.S. as compared to France.  I even made a point of referencing at least 9 cities with populations of 1million+ in the U.S.  A quick googling of France lists me.....Paris with over 2 million & ......Marseille with not even 1 million.  OK, now do you see where I was coming from.  Of course, with the U.S. HUGE desert and mountain regions, not to mention the size of the U.S. alone is going to make density quite small compared to tiny countries, but the point I was making was in sheer #'s as well as the many many locales with those huge #'s.  Capice'?

Sirs, do you know what population density is?

The fact that the United States has huge tracts of desert is meaningless. Obviously, there won't be many homicides committed there.

Do you know what the definition of "rate" is? We are talking about homicide rate. We aren't talking about sheer numbers. That would be ridiculous and unfair to the United States, statistically speaking.

Yet, we've established that France is more densely populated. Yet, it has a much lower homicide rate. Those two facts are not disputable. Now, once you've looked up the definition of population density and rate then we can continue this conversation. If you cannot understand those basic definitions then either 1) you simply aren't willing to have an educated conversation or 2) you simply aren't intelligent.

We both know that #2 is not the case.

That brings us back to the original question.

"You propose increasing the death penalty as the solution for lowering our homicide rate. Clearly that isn't what they do in France. Why does your logic run counter to the facts?"
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.