Author Topic: speaking of knocking on your door  (Read 7794 times)

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BT

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Re: speaking of knocking on your door
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2007, 06:06:16 PM »
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BT, at times you're an embarrassment to this board.

How so.

Is security worth the price of liberty?

Are the odds that great that we will suffer another attack and if so is the loss of "freedoms" worth it?

More damage is done by hurricanes than terrorists so what is the deal?

BT

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Re: speaking of knocking on your door
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2007, 06:36:56 PM »
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If so, on what grounds?

Price performance ratios.

What do these protections cost us in time and money? Does the investment outweigh the "cost" of a terrorist strike.


sirs

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Re: speaking of knocking on your door
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2007, 07:00:44 PM »
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Unfortunatuiely, that someitmes menas we have to give up our liberties.

I'm glad our founding fathers and those who fought to bring forth this great nation didn't think that way.

I'm equally glad there are those who recognize when we have to fight for those freedoms, much like our founders fought for, and to fight an enemy that would wish to see us cease to exist, or at minimum be subjugated to their way of life
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: speaking of knocking on your door
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2007, 07:43:42 PM »
The Arabs are noted for their habit of gross exaggeration, and this is nothing new.

They may say they want to subjugate the West, but pretty much all of even the most radical know that this will never happen. They were provoked by Israel and the US and US companies and aggressions and invasions into their countries, and will easily settle for just being left the eff alone.

Echoing their inflated rhetoric serves no purpose whatever.

If the US had been a bit more fair with regard to Israel grabbing chunks of Syria and the WB, and stationing US troops who spread Christian propaganda within Saudi Arabia, there would have been no Al Qaeda or "war on terrorism".

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: speaking of knocking on your door
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2007, 10:29:50 PM »
<<Why are you so reluctant to admit the obvious? Today, in the year 2007, none of the other religions of the world has this huge problem of followers carrying out violent attacks targeting innocent civilians in the name of their religions claiming their motivation is their religion.>>

I could swear I already answered this post earlier in the day, but when I checked through this thread, I didn't find my reply.  So I'll try again.

I am not reluctant to admit the obvious.  I know that it is not the Methodists or the Mormons who are flying planes into buildings.

I do not believe that "radical Islam" is flying planes into buildings or anywhere else.  "Radical Islam" is an ideology or a group of more or less similar ideologies, and ideologies do not fly planes.  People fly planes.  The people who fly planes into buildings seem to be Muslim.  Whether they are "radical Islamists" I am not so sure.

This thread began with a link to a sermon by Sayyed Yusef Tabatabai Nejad ("Nejad.")  Presumably an example of "radical Islam."  I compared and contrasted Nejad's sermon with the words of Franklin Graham, who I think many conservatives would consider a fairly mainstream American Christian.   Nejad's sermon contained neither the violence nor the disparagement of other religions that were readily found in Graham's words.

So I think we first need to agree on what is considered "radical Islam," whether it necessarily includes calls to violence and disrespect of the religions of others.

Secondly, even if we can at least agree that a sermon like Nejad's, with the addition of calls to violence and zero respect shown for other religions, would be "radical Islam," we have to ask ourselves in what way is this "radical Islam" different from or worse than the quoted words of a mainstream Christian like Franklin Graham?

I think that any fair-minded person would have to admit that both "radical Islam" and the Franklin Graham position would look pretty similar on paper - - both intolerant and disrespectful of other religions and both calling for violence against the other.  The Professor, though, would probably go further and say something like:  "But look - - there are no Christians flying hijacked planes into buildings.  There ARE Muslims doing this, and THEY believe in radical Islam."  The Professor might even go further and say something like, "Radical Islam promises rewards in the afterlife for this kind of conduct and Christianity promises a one-way ticket to hell for it." 

What is the actual responsibility of "radical Islam" for the acts of "terrorism" that have been perpetrated against Americans?  I think it is at least possible that for some of the 911 "terrorists" and their backers, "radical Islam" might have convinced them that (a) it was their duty to attack Americans, (b) they should be prepared to sacrifice their lives in the attempt and (c) they would be rewarded in the afterlife for the attack.

So I think we should examine whether in fact "radical Islam" was the prime motivator of the "terrorists" of, for example, Sept. 11: were they moved to act because "radical Islam" had convinced them that (a) it was their duty to attack Americans, (b) they should be prepared to sacrifice their lives in the attempt and (c) they would be rewarded in the afterlife for the attack.

There are numerous difficulties with this theory.  First, we don't know if all the participating shuhada actually knew that they were intended to die in the attacks, so it's impossible to state with any certainty that the promise of rewards in the afterlife had any effect at all on them.  Secondly, if we assume that "radical Islam" at least persuaded them that it was their duty to attack Americans we have to ask ourselves, on what basis, or with what logic or reasoning could that have been accomplished?  Since America did not even exist in Koranic times, the Koranic justification could not have been a simple injunction to attack and kill Americans.  The commandment, or justification, would have to be found in some passage dealing with the duty to attack and kill, not just infidels - - because infidels are everywhere, and many are much more vulnerable than Americans - - but infidels of a particular kind, most likely, enemies of the Muslims, enemies of Islam itself, or enemies of God.

In order to be considered as enemies of the Muslims or Islam or God, some demonstrable reason stronger than mere unbelief (IMHO) would have to be demonstrated.  It seems painfully obvious to me that the strongest argument that America was an enemy of Muslims (or of Islam or of God) would have to be the continuing forty-year military occupation of the West Bank and the perpetual suffering of the Palestinians under it, conducted by the Jews with the support of the Americans.  If anything could inflame an Arab or Muslim that would be it.  Nothing to add, nothing to explain - - it's a story that is well-known to every living breathing Muslim Arab.  If "radical Islam" preached the destruction of America, I believe its strongest supporting argument is the situation in the West Bank, until recently in the Gaza Strip as well, and the American support of the occupation.

I would also venture to guess that even without the contribution of "radical Islam," the anger generated in the Arab world by the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza strip, and American support of it, would be white-hot.  Whether that anger needs the additional motivation of rewards in the after-life to make the transition from mere anger to suicide mission remains to be demonstrated.  I would not rule out the possibility in individual cases but to answer the question in the affirmative would still leave some very important issues unresolved.

The_Professor

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Re: speaking of knocking on your door
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2007, 10:57:29 PM »
Extremely well-reasoned reply, MT. Thank you for the time it must have taken to formulate your thoughts and report them in this manner.

Hmmm,,,,let me cogitate on this further.....
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sirs

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Re: speaking of knocking on your door
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2007, 11:01:41 PM »
The Arabs are noted for their habit of gross exaggeration, and this is nothing new.....They were provoked by Israel and the US and US companies and aggressions and invasions into their countries, and will easily settle for just being left the eff alone.....If the US had been a bit more fair with regard to Israel grabbing chunks of Syria and the WB, and stationing US troops who spread Christian propaganda within Saudi Arabia, there would have been no Al Qaeda or "war on terrorism".

Good gravy....talk about over-the-top inflated rhetoric        ::)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

hnumpah

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Re: speaking of knocking on your door
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2007, 12:34:34 AM »
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Ok, so H, if no searches at airports and such were performed, guess what would probably occur? Gimme  a break.

No.

You want to let the government listen in on your phone conversations, hell, why not give them carte blanche to open your mail and read it too. Or just walk into your bedroom anytime they feel like it. Or, hey, here's a thought, let them displace you from your home so they can use it to house all those troops who are just a'clamoring to join up and go to Eye-rack.

As far as the airports, if you want to fly, you have to abide by the rules they laid down for it. I don't fly.

But for the rest, I figure the Constitution of these United States guaranteed everyone in this country (not just American citizens, by the way) certain rights and protections from the government. I intend to fight like hell to keep mine. If you want to roll over and just give yours up, that's up to you.
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Michael Tee

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Re: speaking of knocking on your door
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2007, 12:45:50 AM »
<<I figure the Constitution of these United States guaranteed everyone in this country (not just American citizens, by the way) certain rights and protections from the government. I intend to fight like hell to keep mine. If you want to roll over and just give yours up, that's up to you.>>

Makes a lot of sense.  A free society is not a risk-free society.  Of course you can have more security if you give up more freedoms, but you need to evaluate (a) the risk and (b) the freedoms about to be sacrificed.  If the risk is that tens of millions of Americans will die in an imminent attack, then a fairly significant chunk of freedom might have to be given up.  If the risk is that maybe once every six or seven years a bunch of "terrorist" jihadis might get lucky and kill a few thousand Americans, it's just a part of life as a free nation.  There are plenty of sinister forces trying to magnify small threats into huge threats precisely so that Constitutional freedoms can be whittled down to size, increasing the control of the monied upper classes over the rest of the country and allowing the "President" a freer hand in foreign policy.

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: speaking of knocking on your door
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2007, 12:42:47 PM »
"do not believe that "radical Islam" is flying planes into buildings or anywhere else"

no but somebody claiming Islam is the motivation is:
blowing up commuter trains full of innocent civilians in Spain
blowing up commuter trains in England
attacking airports in Glasgow
attacking and killing innocent civilians in theaters and schools in Russia
blowing up russian civilian airliners full of innocent civilians
bombing commuter trains and shopping markets in India
blowing up wedding parties in Jordan
blowing up hotels full of innocent civilians in Egypt
beheading Buddhists in Thailand
Christmas Eve bombings as well as bus depot and airport bombings in the Philippines
blowing up night clubs full of innocents in Bali
bombings of restaurants & hotels full of innocent civilians in Morocco
attacking , burning, and killing policemen & civilians in Nigeria
planting bombs on commuter trains in Germany
all over the world, getting the picture?
and the list could on and on and on and on

"Radical Islam" is an ideology or a group of more or less similar ideologies, and ideologies do not fly planes.  People fly planes.  The people who fly planes into buildings seem to be Muslim.  Whether they are "radical Islamists" I am not so sure.

Oh come on Michael, be honest.
The people doing these horrible deeds targeting innocent civilians are not secret about their motivations.
They readily admit their intent and reason for the "Jihad".
They state their motiviation is Islam.
The deeds are being done, the people doing the deeds admit why, but you are reluctant to accept the reality?

"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Michael Tee

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Re: speaking of knocking on your door
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2007, 02:15:26 PM »
<<They state their motiviation is Islam.>>

Here is where I think your whole carefully-concocted thread of fantasies is going to unravel.  YOU state their motivation is Islam.  I would like to see in their own words what THEY state their motivation is.  Not in Daniel Pipes' words, not in Bernard Lewis' words but in their own words. 

Until you can show me the words of an actual "terrorist" what his motivation is, I have absolutely no reason to take YOUR word that they are doing it motivated "by Islam."  FACTS, CU4, give me some facts.

BTW, your long "laundry list" of various "terrorist" actions:  opposite each item, I could indicate a violent anti-Muslim or anti-Islamic act (such as participating in the U.S. invasion of Iraq) for which the "terrorist" action is more or less meant to be retaliatory.  The general conclusion to be drawn from your list is simple:  Don't fuck with them and they won't fuck with you.

<<and the list could on and on and on and on>>

Bullshit.  You were reaching the outer limits when you ran out of examples.  I challenge you to make up a second list equally as long as your first without repeating yourself once.

sirs

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Re: speaking of knocking on your door
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2007, 02:43:56 PM »
<<They state their motiviation is Islam.>>

Here is where I think your whole carefully-concocted thread of fantasies is going to unravel.  YOU state their motivation is Islam.  I would like to see in their own words what THEY state their motivation is.  Not in Daniel Pipes' words, not in Bernard Lewis' words but in their own words.  

The problem Tee, is that you have heard them, from fomer terroists, radical Islamists, and Usama himself, prior to and just after 911.  A very recent thread gave you 2 intimate references to precisely what you're asking for.  You apparently have no problem ignoring the former & rationalizing the latter to comply with your already made up mind that this is all due to U.S. & Israel aggravated foreign policy



"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: speaking of knocking on your door
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2007, 03:22:02 PM »
<<The problem Tee, is that you have heard them, from fomer terroists, radical Islamists, and Usama himself, prior to and just after 911.  A very recent thread gave you 2 intimate references to precisely what you're asking for.  You apparently have no problem ignoring the former & rationalizing the latter to comply with your already made up mind that this is all due to U.S. & Israel aggravated foreign policy>>

Usama's statement was fairly complex, certainly not the "Islam says do it" simplistic crap that CU4 is trying to peddle here.  As far as the two intimate references you are referring to, I really don't recall them.  They probably cite as many factors as Usama did. 

This should be very simple work for anyone who claims that "radical Islam" makes them do it:  show me the proof.  Where is the proof?

sirs

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Re: speaking of knocking on your door
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2007, 03:35:13 PM »
<<The problem Tee, is that you have heard them, from fomer terroists, radical Islamists, and Usama himself, prior to and just after 911.  A very recent thread gave you 2 intimate references to precisely what you're asking for.  You apparently have no problem ignoring the former & rationalizing the latter to comply with your already made up mind that this is all due to U.S. & Israel aggravated foreign policy>>

Usama's statement was fairly complex, certainly not the "Islam says do it" simplistic crap that CU4 is trying to peddle here. 

There's the rationalization effort, on quotes that were pretty cut & dry, regarding jihad & the Great Satan


As far as the two intimate references you are referring to, I really don't recall them. 

And there be the active ignoring part.  Occurng in a very recent thread that even included in the title that of someone's personal jouney in Rejecting Radical Islam, that I could have swore you posted even in.  Your efforts are appreicated.

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: speaking of knocking on your door
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2007, 03:41:15 PM »
<<There's the rationalization effort, on quotes that were pretty cut & dry, regarding jihad & the Great Satan>>

Really, sirs, what quotes are you referring to?  So far, I've seen plenty of your usual BS, not one direct quote.

<<And there be the active ignoring part.  Occurng in a very recent thread that even included in the title that of someone's personal jouney in Rejecting Radical Islam, that I could have swore you posted even in.  Your efforts are appreicated.>>

More BS.  Where are the quotes?