Tee Believes Media have immunity bubble from criticism

[sirs]

And what's even more appaling is to watch the likes of leftists complain to all levels of hyperbole that how dare someone from the right criticize anyone, including the media.  No where do you see Palin claim the Press have no right to criticize her....unless of course Tee can provide such a quote.....<insert quote of Palin claiming Media have no 1st amendment right to criticize her>....we'll all patiently wait

Here again, we witness the grotesque perversion of the 1st amendment by the left claiming that criticism of the media is tantamount to wanting to silence said media or that it should be silenced.

And who again is it that's supportive of the (un)Fairness Doctrine??

[Michael Tee]

<<No where do you see Palin claim the Press have no right to criticize her....unless of course Tee can provide such a quote.....<insert quote of Palin claiming Media have no 1st amendment right to criticize her>....we'll all patiently wait>>

Obviously an infringement of First Amendment rights would be unconstitutional and illegal.  If Palin claims that the press is infringing her rights by criticism, that is the same as claiming they have no right to do so.  Who has a right to infringe anyone else's First Amendment rights?

If I claim someone is infringing a basic constitutional right of mine, OF COURSE that claim implies that they have no right to do so.

[BT]

How can a right be infringed unless that right has been defined.

Palin is using a very broad interpretation, the same interpretation you often use.

[sirs]

Precisely. 

[crocat]

How can a right be infringed unless that right has been defined.

Palin is using a very broad interpretation, the same interpretation you often use.

But, BT, let's not forget that XO and Tee's definition are as ambiguous as the "Necker Cube."  You start out debating the United States civil rights and as soon as they start to slide down hill they chuck that and start wailing about human rights.   Human rights that only the United States seems to be accountable for.

Cro

[Michael Tee]

<<But, BT, let's not forget that XO and Tee's definition are as ambiguous as the "Necker Cube."  You start out debating the United States civil rights and as soon as they start to slide down hill they chuck that and start wailing about human rights.   Human rights that only the United States seems to be accountable for.>>

Bullshit.  Every nation that ratified the UN Declaration of Universal Human Rights - - which I am sure you will be both surprised and disgusted to learn includes the U.S.A. - - is accountable for any and all breaches of it,  repugnant as that may be to you.

[Michael Tee]

<<Palin is using a very broad interpretation, the same interpretation you often use. >>

Oh really?  Please enlighten me - - what "broad interpretation" of First Amendment rights was Palin using and how does it change the basic underlying inference, that an infringement of her rights, narrowly OR broadly interpreted, would itself be illegal and unconstitutional?

[crocat]

<<But, BT, let's not forget that XO and Tee's definition are as ambiguous as the "Necker Cube."  You start out debating the United States civil rights and as soon as they start to slide down hill they chuck that and start wailing about human rights.   Human rights that only the United States seems to be accountable for.>>

Bullshit.  Every nation that ratified the UN Declaration of Universal Human Rights - - which I am sure you will be both surprised and disgusted to learn includes the U.S.A. - - is accountable for any and all breaches of it,  repugnant as that may be to you.

Michael,

I do not find the UN Declaration of Universal Human Rights repugnant at all.   What I find disheartening is you falling back on them every time that you can uphold your side of the Civil Rights debate.

[Michael Tee]

<<What I find disheartening is you falling back on them every time that you can uphold your side of the Civil Rights debate.>>

I'm glad you can tolerate the UN's Declaration of Universal Human Rights, cro, but I'm not sure what you mean by "falling back on them every time I can uphold my side of the Civil Rights debate."

The Declaration wasn't written to be ignored.  Why shouldn't I "fall back" on it if it's relevant to an argument?

[crocat]

<<What I find disheartening is you falling back on them every time that you can uphold your side of the Civil Rights debate.>>

I'm glad you can tolerate the UN's Declaration of Universal Human Rights, cro, but I'm not sure what you mean by "falling back on them every time I can uphold my side of the Civil Rights debate."

The Declaration wasn't written to be ignored.  Why shouldn't I "fall back" on it if it's relevant to an argument?

Well, you are talking about me depending on a very flawed system, i.e. big government- which has failed on every turn when it comes to give the poor a hand up.   People that need it fall through the crevasses and the about of welfare, medicare, medicaid, and social security fraud along with pork stuffed bills that are supposed to benefit the needy, well that is just criminal.  If it were free enterprise, these departments would be terminated.  Thus I would rather help people were I can see the need and the benefit of the help.   I do more than tolerate, Michael.  That, however, does not stop me from standing by my statement that you keep dropping the debate about what is 'just' under our system of democracy and free enterprise and our Bill of Rights when you start to lose ground.  You quickly back step and pose that you were talking about human rights. 

While we are the discussion of the UN Declaration.... one can point to instances that Obama is denying my right whilst he is offering up my money to whomever he deems in need.

Human Rights Set out in the Declaration

The following reproduces the articles of the Declaration which set out the specific human rights that are recognized in the Declaration.
Article 1
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Article 2
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
Article 3
Everyone has the right to life, liberty, and security of person.
Article 4
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.
Article 5
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.
Article 6
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.
Article 7
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.
Article 8
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.
Article 9
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
Article 10
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.
Article 11
Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.
Article 12
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
Article 13
Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
Article 14
Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
Article 15
Everyone has the right to a nationality.
No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
Article 16
Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.
Article 17
Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.
Article 18
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
Article 19
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
Article 20
Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
No one may be compelled to belong to an association.
Article 21
Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.
Article 22
Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.
Article 23
Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
Article 24
Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.
Article 25
Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.
Article 26
Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.
Article 27
Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.
Article 28
Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.
Article 29
Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
Article 30
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

[Michael Tee]

<<Well, you are talking about me depending on a very flawed system, i.e. big government- which has failed on every turn when it comes to give the poor a hand up.   People that need it fall through the crevasses and the [talk??]  about of welfare, medicare, medicaid, and social security fraud along with pork stuffed bills that are supposed to benefit the needy, well that is just criminal.>>

I don't know what fantasy world you have been inhabiting lately, cro, but in the real world in which my wife and I live, I have had emergency heart surgery (two stents implanted) and my wife has had two major and one minor surgical operations for cancer (rectal re-section, total abdominal hysterectomy and stoma re-location) as well as radiation therapy and chemotherapy which she is in the midst of at this point, and it hasn't cost us one God-damn cent.  None of it.  Get it?  It's FREE.  Moreover in the waiting rooms of Gyno South at the Princess Margaret Hospital in Toronto every single day  I can see  women of all socio-economic classes getting the same first-class medical treatment regardless of what they have or don't have in the bank.  So PLEASE don't feed me this utter bullshit about flawed big government "failing on every turn" and the poor not getting what they're supposed to get.  We know better.

I also don't know what you have against people who haven't been lucky enough or dedicated enough to have accumulated tons of money, but they're all human beings and they all have a right, whatever their personal or genetic failings or shortcomings to life and good health care, to basic decent accommodation for themselves and their families and to a decent education for their children.  And if you gotta chip in a few thousand extra for all that to happen, get over yourself and just thank God or good genes that you were able to get into a tax bracket where you can pay the extra bucks to contribute to a better life for everyone.  If you weren't up in whatever tax bracket you're in, you wouldn't be asked to pay what you're paying.  I don't know which is the more vexing, the selfishness and greed in itself, or the constant need to justify it by belittling and/or demonizing those in need.  I am never prouder to be a Canadian than when I hear selfish Americans nattering on about not only how "unfair" it is, having to pay more taxes to benefit the underprivileged but how beastly and undeserving the said underprivileged really are.  There but for the grace of God go you and I.

[sirs]

Yes, they do have rights, Tee.....but not a right to other people's hard earned money.  That's the diff.  And last I checked, life isn't fair, and never was, and trying to ring the less fortunate as simply not being lucky enough, completely steps all over everyone who has worked their bones to a frazzle, to make something successful of themselves, and it's rarely "good luck", and nearly always hard work.  All the while giving a complete pass to those who have no ambition, no desire, no effort to improve the quality of their life.  Just sit back and let Government do it for them....with other people's money of course, and folks like you, leading the cheer

[Amianthus]

I don't know what fantasy world you have been inhabiting lately, cro, but in the real world in which my wife and I live, I have had emergency heart surgery (two stents implanted) and my wife has had two major and one minor surgical operations for cancer (rectal re-section, total abdominal hysterectomy and stoma re-location) as well as radiation therapy and chemotherapy which she is in the midst of at this point, and it hasn't cost us one God-damn cent.  None of it.  Get it?  It's FREE.

Actually, you have been paying for it all your working life.

[crocat]

<<Well, you are talking about me depending on a very flawed system, i.e. big government- which has failed on every turn when it comes to give the poor a hand up.   People that need it fall through the crevasses and the [talk??]  about of welfare, medicare, medicaid, and social security fraud along with pork stuffed bills that are supposed to benefit the needy, well that is just criminal.>>

I don't know what fantasy world you have been inhabiting lately, cro, but in the real world in which my wife and I live, I have had emergency heart surgery (two stents implanted) and my wife has had two major and one minor surgical operations for cancer (rectal re-section, total abdominal hysterectomy and stoma re-location) as well as radiation therapy and chemotherapy which she is in the midst of at this point, and it hasn't cost us one God-damn cent.  None of it.  Get it?  It's FREE.  Moreover in the waiting rooms of Gyno South at the Princess Margaret Hospital in Toronto every single day  I can see  women of all socio-economic classes getting the same first-class medical treatment regardless of what they have or don't have in the bank.  So PLEASE don't feed me this utter bullshit about flawed big government "failing on every turn" and the poor not getting what they're supposed to get.  We know better.

I also don't know what you have against people who haven't been lucky enough or dedicated enough to have accumulated tons of money, but they're all human beings and they all have a right, whatever their personal or genetic failings or shortcomings to life and good health care, to basic decent accommodation for themselves and their families and to a decent education for their children.  And if you gotta chip in a few thousand extra for all that to happen, get over yourself and just thank God or good genes that you were able to get into a tax bracket where you can pay the extra bucks to contribute to a better life for everyone.  If you weren't up in whatever tax bracket you're in, you wouldn't be asked to pay what you're paying.  I don't know which is the more vexing, the selfishness and greed in itself, or the constant need to justify it by belittling and/or demonizing those in need.  I am never prouder to be a Canadian than when I hear selfish Americans nattering on about not only how "unfair" it is, having to pay more taxes to benefit the underprivileged but how beastly and undeserving the said underprivileged really are.  There but for the grace of God go you and I.

Michael, I don't have anything against anyone.  What I am against is socialism where government decides who and what I help.  Don't like it.
Now regarding you not paying one damn cent...that is not true and I know that you are not naive enough to really believe that.

CANADA:
Personal income taxes
Both the federal and provincial governments have imposed income taxes on individuals, and these are the most significant sources of revenue for those levels of government accounting for over 40% of tax revenue. The federal government charges the bulk of income taxes with the provinces charging a somewhat lower percentage. Income taxes throughout Canada are progressive with the high income residents paying a higher percentage than the low income residents.
Where income is earned in the form of a capital gain, only half of the gain is included in income for tax purposes; the other half is not taxed.

Sales taxes

See also: Sales taxes in Canada
The federal government levies a multi-stage sales tax of 5% (6% prior to January 1, 2008), that is called the Goods and Services Tax (GST), and, in some provinces, the Harmonized Sales Tax (HST). The GST/HST is similar to a value-added tax.
All provincial governments except Alberta levy sales taxes as well. The provincial sales taxes of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Newfoundland and Labrador are harmonized with the GST. That is, a rate of 13% HST is charged instead of separate PST and GST. Both Quebec and Prince Edward Island apply provincial sales tax to the sum of price and GST. The territories of Nunavut, Yukon and Northwest Territories do not charge provincial sales tax.
Provincial and federal sales tax rates at the retail level on goods and some services are as follows:
Province   PST   GST   Total Tax
Alberta   0%   5%   5%
British Columbia   7%   5%   12%
Saskatchewan   5%   5%   10%
Manitoba   7%   5%   12%
New Brunswick   8%   5%   13%
Ontario   8%   5%   13%
Prince Edward Island   10%   5%   15.5%*
Quebec   7.5%   5%   12.875%*
*(PST applied to price + GST)

Property taxes

The municipal level of government is funded largely by property taxes on residential, industrial and commercial properties. These account for about ten percent of total taxation in Canada.
[edit]Excise taxes

Both the federal and provincial governments impose excise taxes on inelastic goods such as cigarettes, gasoline, alcohol, and for vehicle air conditioners. A great bulk of the retail price of cigarettes and alcohol are excise taxes. The vehicle air conditioner tax is currently set at $150 per air conditioning unit. Canada has some of the highest rates of taxes on cigarettes and alcohol in the world. These are sometimes referred to by Canadians as "sin taxes".

Add to that the small business man he gets to pay payroll taxes.

So excuse me when I say, I don't believe it was free.

For the record, I am gainfully employed at a salary of $33,000.00 per year - that is the lion's share of our income.  So some how, I don't think that I fall into the 'rich greedy bastard' shoe.

[Michael Tee]

<<Actually, you have been paying for it all your working life.>>

I thank God I was able to earn what I did and I don't begrudge one cent of what I paid in taxes if any of it went to benefit those who couldn't earn what I earned or who needed more medical attention than my family and I received.

I was born when one of the most powerful armies in the world was moving heaven and earth for no better reason than to find people like me and my mum and dad and kill us all, and our asses were saved by the armies of this country and our allies and by nothing else.  At a cost of terrible sacrifices that will humble me every time I think of them.  I was raised in a country without discrimination of any kind, a huge advantage over what kind of upbringing I would have had in any of the countries my grandparents had come from, I was educated in the best schools and universities in the world, and my family and I have received nothing but the best of medical care and attention.  We grew up driving on good roads, living under just and fair laws and protected by honest and capable police. 

What I got from this country, what my family got from this country, there is no fucking price tag in the world big enough to measure it.  The taxes we all paid don't even start to cover it.  If my taxes have to go up another couple of thousand to cover new health-care costs, what God-damned difference does it make?  I'll tighten the belt another notch or two, but we're still gonna get through it.   My taxes go to provide surgery for some penniless bum in need?  Who gives a fuck?  What if that penniless bum is a veteran or the child of a veteran?  What if he's a person who means no more to me than I meant to some guy who lost his legs at Dieppe?  What if he's a guy that was fucked for life when he went into foster care and this fucking country didn't care enough to hire more social workers so that his case might have been followed up better and he could have been spared from the fate which befell him?

We're all in this together and we're all connected whether we know it or not.  The bottom line is I AM my brother's keeper and that's what makes me a liberal.  And if I didn't give a shit, that's what would make me a conservative, which thank God I am not and I will never be.  If my government tells me that they need more money to maintain benefits, that's good enough for me.  I elected them and I trust them.  Sure they're keeping an army in Afghanistan at the same time that IMHO is a total waste of blood and money, but hey! if this country feels that way, then sooner or later this country will vote in a government that will do the right thing, but until then, I'll pay what my country determines it's fair for me to pay.  I'm cynical enough to realize that some of it will go to waste and some will go into some crook's pocket, but I'm realistic enough to know that most of it will go where it's intended to go and do what the government says it will do.