Author Topic: What the Frell.....Fed to "License" education??  (Read 3236 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: What the Frell.....Fed to "License" education??
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2010, 01:01:46 PM »
Quote
because the govt will now know about my
gold transcations when before they did not,

How so?

Where in that section does it say individuals need to provide the IRS with 1099's when they make purchases above $600?

Show me where it says that and I'll be glad to admit I'm wrong.


Christians4LessGvt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11139
    • View Profile
    • "The Religion Of Peace"
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: What the Frell.....Fed to "License" education??
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2010, 01:37:41 PM »
How so? Where in that section does it say individuals need to provide the IRS with 1099's when they make purchases above $600? Show me where it says that and I'll be glad to admit I'm wrong.

BT...good grief man...how many times do I have to say it?
Repeatedly I have stated to BOTH you and XO how this works.
And honestly I sometimes think you don't even read my posts....

Ok lets try again.

In 2005 for example...I bought $50K worth of gold from my dealer
I did not fill out a govt document about that specific transaction & neither did the dealer.

Under the new law you are correct I wont have to fill out a form, but the dealer will if it's over $600.
The dealer will have to send the govt the exact details of that specific transaction.
Thus the govt is getting the specific details of my transaction.
You are pretending there has not been a change.
When in fact there has been.
The point isn't whether I or the dealer has to fill out the form.
The end result is the same no matter who fills it out.
The point is the govt gets the specific info they didn't before this $600 rule.
Honestly....do you see what I am saying?
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: What the Frell.....Fed to "License" education??
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2010, 01:43:57 PM »
Quote
Under the new law you are correct I wont have to fill out a form, but the dealer will if it's over $600.

Where in that section of the healthcare bill does it say dealers musts file 1099's on sales?

That section deals specifically with those who are making payments.

And unless you have a real sweet relationship with your dealer, they are not paying you to buy their gold.

You as the buyer do not have to file the form as long as it is a personal purchase. The dealer doesn't have to file the form, because they are the seller.

So where is the paper trail as it relates to the feds tracking your gold purchases?




Christians4LessGvt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11139
    • View Profile
    • "The Religion Of Peace"
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: What the Frell.....Fed to "License" education??
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2010, 03:39:59 PM »
Where in that section of the healthcare bill does it say dealers musts file 1099's on sales?
So where is the paper trail as it relates to the feds tracking your gold purchases?



Gold Coin Sellers Angered by New Tax Law

Amendment Slipped Into Health Care Legislation Would Track,
Tax Coin and Bullion Transactions

 
July 21, 2010

Those already outraged by the president's health care legislation now have a new bone of contention --
a scarcely noticed tack-on provision to the law that puts gold coin buyers and sellers under closer
government scrutiny.

The issue is rising to the fore just as gold coin dealers are attracting attention over sales tactics.

Section 9006 of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will amend the Internal Revenue Code
to expand the scope of Form 1099. Currently, 1099 forms are used to track and report the miscellaneous
income associated with services rendered by independent contractors or self-employed individuals.

Starting Jan. 1, 2012, Form 1099s will become a means of reporting to the Internal Revenue Service
the purchases of all goods and services by small businesses and self-employed people that exceed
$600 during a calendar year. Precious metals such as coins and bullion fall into this category
and coin dealers
have been among those most rankled by the change.

This provision, intended to mine what the IRS deems a vast reservoir of uncollected income tax,
was included in the health care legislation ostensibly as a way to pay for it. The tax code tweak
is expected to raise $17 billion over the next 10 years, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation.

Taking an early and vociferous role in opposing the measure is the precious metal and coin industry,
according to Diane Piret, industry affairs director for the Industry Council for Tangible Assets.
The ICTA, based in Severna Park, Md., is a trade association representing an estimated 5,000
coin and bullion dealers in the United States.

"Coin dealers not only buy for their inventory from other dealers, but also with great frequency
from the public," Piret said. "Most other types of businesses will have a limited number of suppliers
from which they buy their goods and products for resale."

So every time a member of the public sells more than $600 worth of gold to a dealer, Piret said,
the transaction will have to be reported to the government by the buyer.


A stack of coins is shown in this file photo. A new IRS rule that will start in
2012 will require sellers, buyers of gold coins to file IRS paperwork.
(Florence Delva/Getty Images)

Pat Heller, who owns Liberty Coin Service in Lansing, Mich., deals with around 1,000 customers every week.
Many are individuals looking to protect wealth in an uncertain economy, he said, while others are dealers
like him.

With spot market prices for gold at nearly $1,200 an ounce, Heller estimates that he'll be filling out between
10,000 and 20,000 tax forms per year after the new law takes effect
.

"I'll have to hire two full-time people just to track all this stuff, which cuts into my profitability,"
he said.

An issue that combines gold coins, the Obama health care law and the IRS is bound to stir passions.
Indeed, trading in gold coins and bars has surged since the financial crisis unfolded and Obama
took office, metal dealers said.

The buying of actual gold, as opposed to futures or options tied to the price of gold, has been a particularly
popular trend among Tea Party supporters and others who are fearful of Obama's economic policies, gold
industry members such as Heller and Piret said. Conservative/libertarian commentators, such as Fox
News Channel's Glenn Beck, routinely tout precious metal on the air as being a safe, shrewd investment
in an environment in which the financial system -- and paper money backed by the rest of the world's
faith in the U.S. government's credit -- is viewed as increasingly fragile.

The recently revealed investigation by California authorities into consumer complaints against Goldline
International, which has used Beck as a pitchman, and Superior Gold Group (which has not) has put
a spotlight on what one liberal leaning politician, Rep. Anthony Weiner, D-N.Y., calls the "unholy alliance"
between gold coin sellers, such as Goldline, and conservative talk personalities, such as Beck.

Beck, who through his spokesman, Matt Hiltzik, declined to comment for this story, and Goldline marketers
portray gold coins as a better alternative to owning bullion in the event that the U.S. government ever decides,
as it did under FDR in 1933, to make it illegal for private citizens to own physical gold. At that time, the U.S.
dollar was still pegged to the price of gold; the gold standard was abandoned during the Nixon administration.

Rep. Daniel Lungren, R-Calif., has introduced legislation to repeal the section of the health care bill that
would trigger the new tax reporting requirement because he says it's a burden on small businesses.


"Large corporations have whole divisions to handle such transaction paperwork but for a small business,
which doesn't have the manpower, this is yet another brick on their back," Lungren said in a statement
e-mailed to ABCNews.com. "Everyone agrees that small businesses are job creators and the engine which
drives the American economy. I am dumfounded that this Administration is doing all it can to make it
more difficult for businesses to succeed
rather than doing all it can to help them grow."

The ICTA's Piret says identity theft is another concern because criminals may set up shops specifically
to extract personal information that would accompany the filing out of a 10
99.

The office of the National Taxpayer Advocate, a citizen's ombudsman within the IRS,
issued a report June 30 that said the new rule "may present significant administrative challenges to taxpayers and the IRS."

]http://abcnews.go.com/Business/gold-coin-dealers-decry-tax-law/story?id=11211611&page=1]


« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 04:31:15 PM by BT »
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: What the Frell.....Fed to "License" education??
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2010, 04:21:57 PM »
Quote
"Coin dealers not only buy for their inventory from other dealers, but also with great frequency
from the public," Piret said. "Most other types of businesses will have a limited number of suppliers
from which they buy their goods and products for resale."

So every time a member of the public sells more than $600 worth of gold to a dealer, Piret said,
the transaction will have to be reported to the government by the buyer.


So how again does this law track your purchases?

Christians4LessGvt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11139
    • View Profile
    • "The Religion Of Peace"
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: What the Frell.....Fed to "License" education??
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2010, 05:20:37 PM »
So how again does this law track your purchases?

Under this new law I buy $50K in gold coins. .
Seller will now be required by law to fill out gvt
form and disclose the details of the transaction.
Me as the buyer will now be named on the gvt form.
Thats not been the case.
The form will say who the buyer and seller is and the details
of the transaction. If the form does not include the facts of the
transaction what would be the purpose of even bothering?
The gold retailer won't be able to name the buyer as
"well somebody that just walked in the door".
The gvt will now (and it never has before)
get the details of every single time I purchase or sell gold coins
over $600. The gvt will now get the amount I purchase/sell
it never has before, the date of my purchase/sale...it never
has before and from whom I purchase my gold coins...it never has before.

Come on BT....we both know and as the ABC News article shows
they want to keep track of these transactions to raise tax revenues.
This isn't really that complicated. It's obvious why and what
they are doing. Honestly I am not being a smartass, but
I find it puzzling why you continue to seem to want to
deny this reality. It's right there in the ABC News article.

Although quite frankly in some ways I do appreciate your
dogged refusal to accept the info just upon face-value
and forced me to go get the facts and source my position.
Because this afternoon I stand much better informed
on this specific issue than I was 48 hours ago....
and for that I thank you....thats what I've always
said about this place...for me it's a learning experience.
We may not be converting the other side to our own
side....but if we take these dialogues seriously then
we at least learn more about our own positions.

"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: What the Frell.....Fed to "License" education??
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2010, 05:32:13 PM »
The thing BT is doing very well is to challenge these opinion pieces, and along those lines, validating our own opinions.  For that, he gets high marks.  It is a bit crazy to think I should be reading, cover to cover the 2000+page piece of Obamanationcare, to bring out the specific regulations being presented in the reports, regarding the gold tracking, or similarly in what has transpired in this thread

He is correct that the authors to such opinion pieces, themselves should provide the evidence to their claims within their reports.  In the absense of any such specificity, one either holds back any conclusions until such, or if finding the reporter credible (or uncredible), backed up by other credible reports/articles, can agree (or not agree) with the conclusions
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 08:45:36 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: What the Frell.....Fed to "License" education??
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2010, 06:27:20 PM »
Quote
Under this new law I buy $50K in gold coins. .
Seller will now be required by law to fill out gvt
form and disclose the details of the transaction.

As the buyer, not true. Unless buying and selling gold is a business venture of yours.

If you were the seller, it might be. But then the goods being tracked are no longer yours.

Odds are very good that this revision will be repealed by bipartisan effort. It is poorly defined and over-reaching. And i would be in favor of that.

This is the problem. Mom and pop are at a point in their lives where they are ready to downsize. They have a garage sale and sell their furniture and all the stuff they have accumulated over the years because they won't need half that stuff in the smaller condo or motor home where they plan to ride off into the sunset as air conditioned gypsies.

What are the chances one buyer purchase more than $600 worth of goods. That antique china cabinet alone is worth that, let alone all the power tools pops has in the workshop.

Is the buyer going to have to file 1099's on mom and pop? The law says yes, kinda.

This is why they put that change in the bill.

They needed to make ObamaCare revenue neutral. and they needed to show offsets. That is why they touted savings on digitized record keeping, that is why they promised to tighten scrutiny on medicare payments.

Sowells take on this provision was misleading because it doesn't just focus on gold purchases. It focuses on all kinds of goods and services.

I've been reading Sowell for years and normally when he is writing about principles he's good. In this case, he picked up on a news story and ran with it, perhaps not bothering to go to the actual provision itself to see whether the story was entirely accurate.

The internet is a wonderful research tool for information, but it is also rife with disinformation.

It is up to us to sluice out the difference.








Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: What the Frell.....Fed to "License" education??
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2010, 08:41:58 PM »
Do you believe that schools that teach physical therapy should be licensed?

I will ask my chiropractor.

Life University which is the largest chiropractic college in the US is accredited by the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools. The same group that accredits the University System of Georgia. 

I am surprised , that is diffrent than my expectation.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: What the Frell.....Fed to "License" education??
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2010, 08:53:56 PM »
Unless your cash purchase and gold hoard is small, keeping recipts would be a good idea , for decades now police have been confiscating cash from people who couldn't explain where they got so much cash.

Christians4LessGvt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11139
    • View Profile
    • "The Religion Of Peace"
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: What the Frell.....Fed to "License" education??
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2010, 09:15:38 PM »
"As the buyer, not true"

Yes it absolutely is true that the govt will now find out from whom, where, and when I buy over $600 in gold coins.
The govt finds out I am the buyer when the seller discloses the details of the transaction on the new required $600 govt form.
That's what the form does...it is to inform the govt of the transaction.
What do you think the seller at the gold store puts on the govt form?
Are you saying when the gold coin retailer fills out the govt form he leaves the buyers info blank?
That would be insane...."Gold Store Inc: "We sold $50K in gold coins today to some red headed guy"?
Of course they will disclose the buyers information and the govt will get that information.
Otherwise the govt would not be getting the transaction details and could not verify it.
That is the purpose of the form to gather details of a transaction.
The buyer and the seller of transactions over $600 will be on the new form.
Thus the govt would get my info and details of my purchase when the seller/company turns in the newly required form.
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: What the Frell.....Fed to "License" education??
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2010, 09:24:40 PM »
Quote
The govt finds out I am the buyer when the seller discloses the details of the transaction on the new required $600 govt form.

What form does the seller fill out? The buyer is responsible for this new form, but only if they are in the business of buying whatever it is they bought.

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: What the Frell.....Fed to "License" education??
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2010, 09:28:13 PM »
Quote
Under ? 6041 of the Internal Revenue Code (IRC), persons engaged in a trade or business who
make payments totaling at least $600 to another person in a single year are required to file an
information return (typically a Form 1099) with the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) and to
provide the payee with a copy. For payments made after December 31, 2011, ? 9006 of P.L. 111-
148, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA), expanded the information
reporting requirements contained in IRC ? 6041. Under the amended provision, most payments to
corporations will no longer be exempt from reporting and the types of payments that can trigger
the reporting requirement will include gross proceeds and amounts received by a payee in
consideration for property.

http://www.pppnet.org/pdf/crs._1099.pdf

Christians4LessGvt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11139
    • View Profile
    • "The Religion Of Peace"
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: What the Frell.....Fed to "License" education??
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2010, 11:17:45 PM »
The buyer is responsible for this new form, but only if they are in the business of buying whatever it is they bought.

BT where do you think most people buy and sell large amounts of gold?
Who do gold investors sell $10K, $20K, $50K, or a $100K of gold they own?
You think they put an ad on Craigslist & invite Joe-the-Mugger over to their house for a looksie?
Investors of large amounts of gold sell their gold to dealers who now have to report the specific details of the transaction to the gvt.
That is a change. That is something new. The gvt will be tracking who, when, the amount, and price of gold I sell.
Anyone that sells more than $600 worth of gold will be now be tracked by the gvt.


"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16141
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: What the Frell.....Fed to "License" education??
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2010, 11:33:27 PM »
CU yes a dealer would have to report that they bought more than $600 worth of gold from you in a given year.

And all that would show is that at one time you had $600 worth of gold at any given time.
It would not show that you had more gold you were sitting on.

But if it worries you that the govt might figure out that you possess gold, my suggestion is you sell it before dec 2011 to avoid the stress.

In fact if you own anything of value that a business might buy from you, i suggest you liquidate it post haste.

You keep focusing on gold like it is the only material subject to this rule. Even old barn wood would qualify.